The Balochistan issue

[Elmo]

@Zob: Bane my friend you want me to tell the balochis to sit tight for 3 years.....i mean seriously the problem in balochistan…

An extremely valid point: Pakistanis have not learnt from their past mistakes — we ignore the core issue and shoot arrows in the dark. But we can’t equalise NWFP and Balochistan. The former threatens the existence of the country.

@ Bane Blade: I would continue to wish for that thinking to be maintained across all Pakistanis and untill I have not acheived a personall target…

Great work on your behalf admittedly but how many MNAs, MPAs, district nazims, union nazims are making a similar effort. Without undermining your contribution, your effort is a drop in the ocean. It’s the state that has to work for the uplift of the poor.

…better Pakistani society one that grows on education and not beggary one where people want to move up not stay down the only way for our capitalistic society to grow is when the people want to grow…

As for moving forward, that comes with motivation and determination and the fact that you cab dream of something better. Most poor Pakistanis are too cynical to even hope. What are you going to do about that?

@ Agnostic Muslim: Perhaps, and it may not work the first few times, but it is guaranteed not to work if we don't even try…

Agreed but the realisation has to come from within.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Just replace Pakistan with USA and whatever you said was said by Thomas Jefferson to Marcus Lafayette "Perhaps, and it may not work the first few times, but it is guaranteed not to work if we don't even try.

A vibrant democracy won't just fall into our laps, Americans will have to work for it bit by bit."

Can't remember having read Jefferson or that particular quote, though I may still be subconsciously paraphrasing.

But I'm flattered.

 

[Bane Blade]

I am confused. Are you claiming USA is not a democracy ?

I can understand if you claim USA is not a nice place to be etc. I'll also agree if you said US foreign policy has caused a lot of enmity to it.
But USA was the first modern democratic republic and has had unbroken democracy from the time of its founding (Lincoln's grabbing of emergency powers, Civil wars were the dark spots). France actually copied ideas from the US for its revolution (which in turn died), Europe learned ideas from it, South American democracies copied a lot from it. Indian constitution is largely based on US ideas of having a written constitution, so is Pakistan's (Britain has no written constitution).

Why would you say US democracy does not work ?

Please research who Thomas jefferson is and what year I am talking about this was the time when America was a new nation Jeffferson if I am not wrong was I think the third president.

Bane my friend you want me to tell the balochis to sit tight for 3 years.....i mean seriously the problem in balochistan is HUGE bigger then NWFP because in NWFP the locals don't say screw Pakistan we don't want PAKISTAN....but in balochistan they do....and like we did with EAST PAKISTAN ignored the core issues we are doing the same with BALOCHISTAN.....i was reading the other day that in schools in mustang(balochistan) pakistan national anthem has been stopped and flag hoisting ceremony in the morning as well....i am sorry but seems like pakistanis haven't learnt anything from our past mistakes of our ancestors.

You know this is not in anyway different from what other countries have been through the only difference is that many are being funded by a foreign hand however I would say that if the BNP gets elected and it is the will of the people then who are you or I to stop them if the people feel that an independant Ballochistan is the way forward seeing that from partition till now they haven't exactly been showered with benefits what can we expect, they have the right to choose their pathway and if that is what they elect then their mandate will have to be accepted however if the amount of people is small then the Balochi loyalists should turn to the government for justice. They wil in turn provide them with it after all they are their own elected officials.

As for moving forward, that comes with motivation and determination and the fact that you cab dream of something better. Most poor Pakistanis are too cynical to even hope. What are you going to do about that?

@Nadja I am going to try my best to make Pakistanis want better and I feel that it can only be acheived when people work hard to acheive their goals and learn to save money rather than invest it on their local pir sain, this is an event that happened when i visited Umarkot and was surprised that they gave 100000Rs every single year just to pir sains mazaar for better fortune something they could probably spend by paying their taxes or bettering themselves.

Can't remember having read Jefferson or that particular quote, though I may still be subconsciously paraphrasing.

But I'm flattered.

Well if it comes naturally to you then

Future Jefferson of Pakistan what are you doing in the US you should come back to Pakistan and lead our nation.

 

[Elmo]

@ Bane Blade: You know this is not in anyway different from what other countries have been through the only difference is that many are being funded by a foreign hand however I would say that if the BNP gets elected…

BNP obviously does not have a large support base: it won only one seat from Balochistan to the National Assembly and five to the provincial assembly.
What mars Balochistan and its people is not so much as the apathy of the federal government but that of its so-called elected representatives. The state has given royalty to the nawabs of the different tribes for the gas and coal mines (and other minerals) but that has not been used to alleviate the people. It has gone into the ever-swelling coffers of the feudals.
One really doesn’t know what the Balochs want. They’ll probably follow anyone who claims to offer salvation. The independence will only serve the vested interests of the khans and nawabs of the princely states and tribes. Please do check the stats on the voter turnout in Balochistan (the ones on the Election Commission Pakistan website are skewed for some districts) and you’ll figure that in some places it was as low as 16 per cent with turn-out at some women’s polling station negligible. So the “representatives” are rather selected than elected.

I am going to try my best to make Pakistanis want better and I feel that it can only be achieved…

People do work hard to achieve their goals here: food, clothing and shelter. 25 per cent of the population lives below the poverty line. Education and health are luxuries, especially since no one is insured and the state does not provide free treatment. They can barely make it through the day, so saving money is not an option. I don’t think people who give a 100,000 rupees to pirs are poor — which socioeconomic level are you talking of?

 

[Bane Blade]

Farmers people who trade in high amounts but with hardly any profit margin and that is also taken away by Nawab's Bhatta the person whose land they utilise and also the Pir Sahib.
I am talking of whole families here.

And You have answered your own problem their that people need to be educated about their rights and people of Balochistan need to be told that as well they should be given the chance to vote freely and to ensure that it is us who needs to educate the people.

 

[Zob]

@ NADJA: But we can’t equalise NWFP and Balochistan. The former threatens the existence of the country.

OK which country are we talking about and i guess ur statement says it all....you don't seem to think balochistan is part of the country....i guess we will be left with three provinces in UR COUNTRY....Sindh and Punjab and SARHAD....

 

[Zob]

You know this is not in anyway different from what other countries have been through the only difference is that many are being funded by a foreign hand however I would say that if the BNP gets elected and it is the will of the people then who are you or I to stop them if the people feel that an independant Ballochistan is the way forward seeing that from partition till now they haven't exactly been showered with benefits what can we expect, they have the right to choose their pathway and if that is what they elect then their mandate will have to be accepted however if the amount of people is small then the Balochi loyalists should turn to the government for justice. They wil in turn provide them with it after all they are their own elected officials


Bane i don't understand balochis can do as they please can get seperartion if they please but the NWFP people if they support TALIBAN it is not allowed it is TABOO....?? why do people forget that balochistan is our biggest province most of our natural resources come from balochistan....and yet people seem to not care....i thought we pathans were being neglected but i guess i was wrong....

 

[Elmo]

@ Zob: OK which country are we talking about and i guess ur statement says it all....you don't seem to think balochistan is part of the country....i guess we will be left with three provinces in UR COUNTRY....Sindh and Punjab and SARHAD....

When I talk about the Taliban threatening the existence of this country, I mean the whole country not just the NWFP. As for the anti-state sentiments and demands for separation in Balochistan, I don’t think that as being unimportant. We are waging wars on many fronts. It’s probably my bias in prioritising that came though earlier. To me the forceful imposition of a theocratic ideology is more pressing than dissent and separatist movement. So yes we do differ in our opinions but my country will have four provinces: Sindh, Punjab, Balochistan and NWFP (I’d say use Pakhtunkhwa over Sarhad, the NWFP’s state house uses it too).

Bane i don't understand balochis can do as they please can get seperartion if they please but the NWFP people...

Sorry, but you mean the pathans in Balochistan or NWFP who were being neglected? Also not everyone in the NWFP supports the Taliban as is the case with Balochistan: the majority does not support separation. What your argument highlights is the 60 year old debate on what criteria should a province be allocated resources and decision-making authority: on the basis of its population or the area/resources it covers.

And You have answered your own problem their that people need to be educated about their rights and people of Balochistan need to be told that as well they should be given the chance to vote freely and to ensure that it is us who needs to educate the people.


But who will let one go to the interior and educate people about their rights? Education and literacy will never be on the agenda of any elected member.

 

[Zob]

When I talk about the Taliban threatening the existence of this country, I mean the whole country not just the NWFP. As for the anti-state sentiments and demands for separation in Balochistan, I don’t think that as being unimportant. We are waging wars on many fronts. It’s probably my bias in prioritising that came though earlier. To me the forceful imposition of a theocratic ideology is more pressing than dissent and separatist movement. So yes we do differ in our opinions but my country will have four provinces: Sindh, Punjab, Balochistan and NWFP (I’d say use Pakhtunkhwa over Sarhad, the NWFP’s state house uses it too).
Also not everyone in the NWFP supports the Taliban

firstly you said it yourself not everyone in NWFP supports the TALIBAN please stop assuming that the TALIBAN will even reach KOHAT....you seem to be talking like the AMERICANS...how can ISLAMABAD fall or how can even PESHAWAR FALL...taliban enjoy support in areas where the people see them as fighting for their justice....TALIBAN cannot ever IMPOSE THEIR IDEOLOGY OVER PAKISTAN...AND PAKISTANIS PERIOD.....you are telling me a handful of thugs can take over ISLAMABAD,LAHORE,KARACHI....no way.When the AMERICANS talk about ISLAMABAD falling they talk in distance and geographic terms but being a pakistani and a PATHAN i know it for sure that our DEMOGRPAHICS will never allow TALIBAN to take over PAKISTAN.....

Now coming to BALOCHISTAN....well if the balochis feel hatred towards pakistan....balochistan is lost without a fight....and people think that BALOCHIS forgot BUGTTIs death....the answer is NO...everything is building up inside the balochis anti PAKISTAN sentiments are building up....soon you will see a BALOCHI MUKTI BAANI type thing....keep looking north while we lose our South WEST.....north is the distraction that was meant to be created.....PATHANS have never and will never call for a FREE PAKHTONISTAN or something of that sort....pathans are very patriotic and inshallah will remain so they are not FED UP YET.... but the problem is balochis are FED up now....if we don't adress this issue now we will be sitting 10 years down the line and thinking BALOCHISTAN could have been saved just how we think about EAST PAKISTAN NOW....

 

[Bane Blade]

Bane i don't understand balochis can do as they please can get seperartion if they please but the NWFP people if they support TALIBAN it is not allowed it is TABOO....?? why do people forget that balochistan is our biggest province most of our natural resources come from balochistan....and yet people seem to not care....i thought we pathans were being neglected but i guess i was wrong....

If anyone votes on anything from any elected government they are entitled to do as they please the situation in Balochistan or NWFP isn't acceptable to me unless the people elect in their decision for the Shariat I feel that if the major populous supports something they need to vote in their bil or protest peacefully not the way they are doing things at present. People should care about our Balochi brothers because they are just as much a part of our society as we are but I or you have no right over their freedom to choose however it is our duty to educate them and getr our point across or the Nawabs will never lose their power and the seperation issue will continue.

 

[Bane Blade]

But who will let one go to the interior and educate people about their rights? Education and literacy will never be on the agenda of any elected member.

We the people will we have to contribute our own hours and vacations and make trips to these places and start by bringing change amongst the uneducated in your neighbourhood. We can deal with the interior as well but only if we contribute time and money

 

[Zob]

If anyone votes on anything from any elected government they are entitled to do as they please the situation in Balochistan or NWFP isn't acceptable to me unless the people elect in their decision for the Shariat I feel that if the major populous supports something they need to vote in their bil or protest peacefully not the way they are doing things at present. People should care about our Balochi brothers because they are just as much a part of our society as we are but I or you have no right over their freedom to choose however it is our duty to educate them and getr our point across or the Nawabs will never lose their power and the seperation issue will continue.

Fair enough let them choose will you accept if they want to seperate....??? if they do will you let them??

now let's discuss NWFP fair enough they want shariah...are you letting them have it??? when you didn't let them they resorted to taliban support....

i see alot of DAWN news crowd on this forum....because most of the poor working class and peasents don't understand DAWN....

 

[Elmo]

@ Zob: Dawn news crowd?
Hahahhahahahha! ROFLMAO

Good one!

 

[Elmo]

now let's discuss NWFP fair enough they want shariah...are you letting them have it??? when you didn't let them they resorted to taliban support....”

I agree. This was my point on another thread about the Taliban take-over. It is an enigma: how do we gauge what’s important and what’s not for people who do not subscribe to our view or even lifestyle.

firstly you said it yourself not everyone in NWFP supports the TALIBAN please stop assuming that the TALIBAN will even reach KOHAT

They have already reached Kohat and Hangu…. You should follow news reports more regularly.

....you seem to be talking like the AMERICANS...how can ISLAMABAD fall or how can even PESHAWAR FALL...taliban enjoy support in areas where the people see them as fighting for their justice....TALIBAN cannot ever IMPOSE THEIR IDEOLOGY OVER PAKISTAN...AND PAKISTANIS PERIOD

But they aspire to do that. Why not nip hem in the bud?

.....you are telling me a handful of thugs can take over ISLAMABAD, LAHORE, KARACHI....no way.

The same was thought about in Kabul, look what happened. It may sound far-fetched but where the wind blows, no one knows.

When the AMERICANS talk about ISLAMABAD falling they talk in distance and geographic terms but being a pakistani and a PATHAN i know it for sure that our DEMOGRPAHICS will never allow TALIBAN to take over PAKISTAN.....

You are the one of a handful pathan who thinks that way

Now coming to BALOCHISTAN....well if the balochis feel hatred towards pakistan....balochistan is lost without a fight

An army operation is being conducted there to wipe out the separatists

....and people think that BALOCHIS forgot BUGTTIs death....the answer is NO...everything is building up inside the balochis anti PAKISTAN sentiments are building up....soon you will see a BALOCHI MUKTI BAANI type thing....keep looking north while we lose our South WEST

Yup, though I disagree that we will have that soon. We already have such groups in the form of the Baloch Liberation Army, Marri Etihad, Baloch Republican Army, Baloch Student Organisation etc etc.. They just need to unify.


PATHANS have never and will never call for a FREE PAKHTONISTAN or something of that sort....pathans are very patriotic and inshallah will remain so they are not FED UP YET

It’s extremely heart-warming to know that…

 

[vkurian]

Well atleast they have for the first time accepted the problem lets see how they tackle it, although I must say if India is levied blame against the Balochistan Pakistan has done nothing short in its part over Kashmir and I think these little tit tat fights are going to cost the whole region alot of damage, the two nations have to work together and India has to play a role too in the stability of the region of South Asia.

The proof of the pudding is in eating.

Sooner the countries understand this better.