The atrocities in the 1971 civil war

[Tameem]

Oa...maindaki ko bhi zukaam hogya...??

P.S. @tameem, there's never a wrong in accepting and presenting the facts, rather it strenghtens you. Here on PDF, we fight through truth, not jingiostics!

Facts!! not Propaganda!!! if you don't have any facts regarding the subject (Pakistani brutality - or wait, it's not...) of this thread...than just sh..-.p!!

 

[toxic_pus]

First, let me point out where the ICJ (International Commission of Jurists, not the International Court of Justice) makes the same argument as some of us have, regarding the casualty count in East Pakistan:

So?

My response was very specific and was meant to point out the blatant lie that PA didn't commit genocide. They did, in every sense of the legal definition and worse. In fact, you have confirmed once again what Gregory H. Stanton had pointed out, 'DENIAL is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide.'

And genocide has nothing to do with numbers, neither did I claim any number. Now quit raising strawman. Then again, it is your noted tactic to divert any debate on PA's cold blooded genocide into a debate on numbers. So I'm not surprised.

This argument applies just as well against the Bengali rebels who massacred men, women and children of non-Bengali origin - and the accounts of that from various historians have also been posted on this thread.

There is no moral equivalency between the State sponsored, sanctioned and encouraged violence (read extermination) and the resistance by the potential victims, whether violent or not, against such State terrorism. Let me quote ICJ (Commission of Jurists) once again:

'They [Awami League] were, however, justified under domestic law in using force to resist the attempt by the self-appointed and illegal military regime to impose a different form of constitution upon the country to that approved by the majority of the people in a fair and free election '​

But the point repeatedly made by us is not that atrocities did not occur, they did, but that the numbers killed were nowhere along the lines typically claimed and that the atrocities were committed by both sides - this was a civil war after all.

You still don't get it, do you? Numbers really really really don't matter. '3,000,000' or '300,000' don't make a wee bit difference in the minds of sane people. Although, I can well understand, that it does make a difference in the minds of genocide deniers.

 

[toxic_pus]

The point is, as already pointed out on several threads in the months past, that covert Indian support for the East Pakistan rebels/terrorists started in April of 1971, long before any 'ten million refugees' entered India and supposedly 'forced India to intervene in East Pakistan'.

The 10,000,000 figure is an approximate cumulative figure for the refugees that poured into India right till the official war. And Indian 'intervention' refers to the actual war. Nobody, who has read up on the events of 1971, claim that India created Mukti Bahini after 10 million refugees had entered India.

Bangladesh Govt-in-Exile was declared on 10th April and officially established 7 days later. Whats there to hide the 'covert' support here.

The point is that Indian support for the East Pakistan rebels/terrorists prolonged and escalated the conflict, and therefore played a part in the subsequent violence on both sides and the refugee exodus.

Yes, its all India's fault. The fact that the State of Pakistan was orchestrating a blood bath had absolutely nothing to do with it. Point taken.

I must admit that I like this Pakistani psychology - blame everyone else and his grandmother, for all their own fvck ups.

Btw, Xeric's post didn't really make that point. It appears he just collected some text and posted it here thinking he is revealing the greatest secret on Earth. It is only you who have latched on to his meaningless post to continue with your disinformation campaign.

 

[Dalai Lama]

No Indian will deny that we helped the Mukti Bahini and did everything in our power to capitalise on the conflict. After-all, you were our mortal enemies. But saying that it was solely India's fault that the violence/genocide occurred makes no sense whatsoever.

If West Pakistan hadn't thought of the Eastern Pakistanis as a "lesser" race, there would have been no conflict for India to exploit in the first place.

 

[Al-zakir]

AL is not the biggest enemy of Bangladesh but "Bengali Nationalism" is, U cannot eliminate AL without eliminating it first bcz it thrives on the popular sentiments of the people at large.

"Bengali nationalism" and Awamism is actually same thing. It's only Awami league that preach Bengali nationalism over Islam. Bengali natinalist comprise of about 30% bd population including minorites. Althugh their number is small however they have the back up of Bharat. If BNP could have come back to power in 2008, we would have destroy Awami leauge but unfortuante for us is that it has regain power with the help of Bharti and ghaddar Gen. Moeen u Ahmed.

Can you gauranteed me that from now onwards majority of Bangladeshis (including BNP caders) would now calling themselves Muslim first instead of Bengali. If not than you cannot eliminate Awami Leage not in a thousand years.

As a matter of fact we are. Majority Bangladeshi consider themselves Muslim first and Bangladeshi second. BNP's "Bangladeshi nationalism" is actually derived from Pakistani nationalism however I agree that it's may not be possible to eliminate Awami league so long we have country called Bharat.

That Bengali Muslims mindsets first have to change in order to unite all the Muslims of the subcontinent and i don't see any possibility of it in near future. This is the first pre-requisits gesture we Pakistanis want from an average Bengali Muslims unless and untill that happened........., Thanks but no Thanks, we Pakistanis have enough in our plates at the moment.... we cannot be fool around once again so easily!!

I understand your sentiment and I do not blame you. I would do samething if I was you. It's our problem so therefore we have to fight for our survival.

 

[saleen_s7]

"Bengali nationalism" and Awamism is actually same thing. It's only Awami league that preach Bengali nationalism over Islam. Bengali natinalist comprise of about 30% bd population including minorites. Althugh their number is small however they have the back up of Bharat. If BNP could have come back to power in 2008, we would have destroy Awami leauge but unfortuante for us is that it has regain power with the help of Bharti and ghaddar Gen. Moeen u Ahmed.




As a matter of fact we are. Majority Bangladeshi consider themselves Muslim first and Bangladeshi second. BNP's "Bangladeshi nationalism" is actually derived from Pakistani nationalism however I agree that it's may not be possible to eliminate Awami league so long we have country called Bharat.

The logic that we should be Muslims first and bengalis second never made sense to me. We are both at the same time and the differentiating is mainly for political purposes. Even the muslims in India consider themselves both at the same time and refuse to prioritise one over the other.
And again, I agree with your post that bengali nationalism is a failed concept in Bangladesh, which is why Bangladeshi nationalism was more embraced when introduced because it gave us a sovereign identity. Although I doubt, most of the population would embrace the Pakistani nationalism in here.

 

[toxic_pus]

Here is one example of PA run extermination camp at Hariharpara, near Dhaka. The report is by Lewis M. Simons for Washington Post and appeared on 10th Jan, 1972, shortly after the end of the war.

(Click on the images to enlarge)






PS: I didn't scan the images. I had downloaded a pdf file quite sometime ago and I have completely forgotten the original source. So the credit goes to the individual who had taken pains to scan this report.

PPS: I'll be uploading some more images as and when needed.

PPPS: The thread will be locked in 10...9...8...7...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Here is one example of PA run extermination camp at Hariharpara, near Dhaka. The report is by Lewis M. Simons for Washington Post and appeared on 10th Jan, 1972, shortly after the end of the war.

(Click on the images to enlarge)






PS: I didn't scan the images. I had downloaded a pdf file quite sometime ago and I have completely forgotten the original source. So the credit goes to the individual who had taken pains to scan this report.

PPS: I'll be uploading some more images as and when needed.

PPPS: The thread will be locked in 10...9...8...7...

That account has already been debunked in past posts - just because the account appeared in the WaPo does not change the fact that it is anecdotal and has no actual evidence to support either the numbers killed or massacres claimed.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

So?

So your own quoted report, as I 'very specifically pointed out' argues against the absurd claims of 'millions killed', and puts the death toll in the tens of thousands or at most hundreds of thousands'.

My response was very specific and was meant to point out the blatant lie that PA didn't commit genocide. They did, in every sense of the legal definition and worse. In fact, you have confirmed once again what Gregory H. Stanton had pointed out, 'DENIAL is the eighth stage that always follows a genocide.'

The only part of the report that alleges genocide is in terms of any targeting of the East Pakistan Hindu community - that is it. So there was no genocide of Bengalis, let's get that clear, 'your report' claims as much.

So the only thing left to argue in terms of whether genocide occurred is with respect to the East Pakistani Hindu community being targeted, correct?

But since the report itself argues in the beginning that it is almost impossible to verify the casualty numbers, how can it then make a claim with any certitude regarding any alleged Pakistani 'genocide of Hindus in East Pakistan'? I would imagine such an allegation could, in the absence of verifiable casualty counts, per the ICJ itself, only be made if there is credible evidence of a high level Pakistani policy of exterminating the East Pakistani Hindus. Is there?

And genocide has nothing to do with numbers, neither did I claim any number. Now quit raising strawman. Then again, it is your noted tactic to divert any debate on PA's cold blooded genocide into a debate on numbers. So I'm not surprised.

It has nothing to do with numbers, indeed, it has everything to do with an 'official plan and actions to eliminate in part, or whole, an entire religious community', East Pakistani Hindus, in this case at least.

But the numbers do have a relevance in the context of the thread, and most discussions on the events in 1971. Many Indians will usually throw in canards about 'PA killed millions in 1971', so when your own quoted report debunks this oft repeated historical lie, the lie must be highlighted. There is nothing 'strawmannish' about this, I was rather specific in making that particular argument separately.

There is no moral equivalency between the State sponsored, sanctioned and encouraged violence (read extermination) and the resistance by the potential victims, whether violent or not, against such State terrorism. Let me quote ICJ (Commission of Jurists) once again:

'They [Awami League] were, however, justified under domestic law in using force to resist the attempt by the self-appointed and illegal military regime to impose a different form of constitution upon the country to that approved by the majority of the people in a fair and free election '​

There is no justification for the rebel/terrorist massacres of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of non-Bengali innocent men, women and children (as pointed out in the first few pages of this thread). 'Domestic law' does not authorize those kinds of massacres of innocents. That you would even try and justify those atrocities by Indian supported Bengali rebels/terrorists shows us the depths of hatred and intellectual dishonesty you have sunk to.

Here is a past post by Bilal Haider:

No need for an apology, especially as the Mukti Bahini were responsible for killing between 500,000-1 million Biharis:

Blood and Tears and the massacre of Non-Bengalis by Mukti Bahani|Dacca Times

The sheaves of eye-witness accounts, documented in this book, prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the massacre of West Pakistanis, Biharis and other non-Bengalis in East Pakistan had begun long before the Pakistan Army took punitive action against the rebels late in the night of March 25, 1971. It is also crystal clear that the Awami League’s terror machine was the initiator and executor of the genocide against the non-Bengalis which exterminated at least half a million of them in less than two months of horror and trauma. Many witnesses have opined that the federal Government acted a bit too late against the insurgents. The initial success of the federal military action is proved by the fact that in barely 30 days, the Pakistan Army, with a combat strength of 38,717 officers and men in East Pakistan, had squelched the Awami League’s March-April, 1971, rebellion all over the province.

Panchabibi, Jessore: The Mukti Bhani massacres of Biharis|Today's Views

Actually Mukti Bahini and Bengal Regiment personnel raped the Bihari and west Pakistani women killed about 800,000/ to 1,000,000/ innocent Biharis and West Pakistanis in East Pakistan in 1971. After the 16th of December 1971 Bangladeshis showed the dead bodies and graves of these innocent Biharis and Pakistanis as Bengali people killed by the Pakistan army.
Mukti Bahini killed 1 million Biharis:

Mukti Bahani massacres of Biharis in Panchabibi, Jessore « Bogra « Rajshahi « Sonar Bangla « Bangladesh Patriot

I love the Bangladeshi people today, so I really hope you get past this ugly chapter in our history. No need for apologies from either side. Pakistan feels the pain of 1971 everyday, but in the end you got what you want. Now let's move past this and live as brothers. Peace.

 

[toxic_pus]

That account has already been debunked in past posts - just because the account appeared in the WaPo does not change the fact that it is anecdotal and has no actual evidence to support either the numbers killed or massacres claimed.

As I said, the numbers matter little to establish the fact of intent. That PA ran an extermination camp at Hariharpara is now a fact. There were others, but we will leave it at that. As with the numbers, well, it is hard to count the corpeses which have been disposed off by dumping into the river.

And, every eye witness is anecdotal, in case you didn't know earlier.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The 10,000,000 figure is an approximate cumulative figure for the refugees that poured into India right till the official war.

Oh, you mean yet more unsubstantiated numbers the Indians and other pulled out of their collective rear ends ...

And Indian 'intervention' refers to the actual war. Nobody, who has read up on the events of 1971, claim that India created Mukti Bahini after 10 million refugees had entered India.

You may choose to cherry pick how you wish to define 'Indian intervention', but any rational individual would agree that India's covert support for rebels/terrorists in April 1971 amounts to 'intervention', and a hostile act against sovereign state. Glad to see you have finally stopped denying this.

Bangladesh Govt-in-Exile was declared on 10th April and officially established 7 days later. Whats there to hide the 'covert' support here.

I don't really care about 'political support', it is the military support, that enabled the East Pakistani rebels/terrorists to carry out their blood bath against innocent non-Bengali residents, and therefore prolonged the violence and poured fuel on it, that is the issue and is what you wish to 'hide'.

Yes, its all India's fault. The fact that the State of Pakistan was orchestrating a blood bath had absolutely nothing to do with it. Point taken.

Operation Searchlight, as has been already argued, came about after weeks of violence by the rebels/terrorists in East Pakistan. India chose to pour even more fuel on the fire.

I must admit that I like this Pakistani psychology - blame everyone else and his grandmother, for all their own fvck ups.

You can keep avoiding the issue and keep distorting history instead ...

Btw, Xeric's post didn't really make that point. It appears he just collected some text and posted it here thinking he is revealing the greatest secret on Earth. It is only you who have latched on to his meaningless post to continue with your disinformation campaign.

Well, that is for him to say to me, unless you are now 'The Great Mahashirijabalmanagalbangal Mind reader' as well.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

As I said, the numbers matter little to establish the fact of intent. That PA ran an extermination camp at Hariharpara is now a fact. There were others, but we will leave it at that. As with the numbers, well, it is hard to count the corpeses which have been disposed off by dumping into the river.

And, every eye witness is anecdotal, in case you didn't know earlier.

Eyewitness accounts can be properly recorded and investigated and corroborated from other accounts for inconsistencies/consistencies, along with using previous data from various government records (tax, land, census, medical, etc.) and through compiling information from people with missing relatives and checking that against the refugee population in neighboring countries.

There are ways to corroborate these accounts to some degree, but it appears people just want to throw around fanciful accusations instead to malign and denigrate the PA and Pakistan.

 

[toxic_pus]

So your own quoted report, as I 'very specifically pointed out' argues against the absurd claims of 'millions killed', and puts the death toll in the tens of thousands or at most hundreds of thousands'.

That was not my argument.

The only part of the report that alleges genocide is in terms of any targeting of the East Pakistan Hindu community - that is it. So there was no genocide of Bengalis, let's get that clear, 'your report' claims as much.

But genocide, all the same. It is irrelevant how the victims are identified - by their ethnicity or their religion. A group of innocent people (Hindus) were killed by another group (the State of Pakistan), systematically, because of being something that the State despised. That is all that matters.

So the only thing left to argue in terms of whether genocide occurred is with respect to the East Pakistani Hindu community being targeted, correct?

Legally, yes. Morally, no.

But since the report itself argues in the beginning that it is almost impossible to verify the casualty numbers, how can it then make a claim with any certitude regarding any alleged Pakistani 'genocide of Hindus in East Pakistan'? I would imagine such an allegation could, in the absence of verifiable casualty counts, per the ICJ itself, only be made if there is credible evidence of a high level Pakistani policy of exterminating the East Pakistani Hindus. Is there?

There is, in the manner the Hindus were identified and executed. And once again, numbers don't matter in genocide. Intent matters. There are 7 stages of genocide. (Source)

1. Classification, 2. Symbolization, 3. Dehumanization, 4. Organization, 5. Polarization, 6. Preparation and 7. Extermination. There is 8th stage, it is called Denial, which is what you are in.

Note, how numbers are not a factor.

It has nothing to do with numbers, indeed, it has everything to do with an 'official plan and actions to eliminate in part, or whole, an entire religious community', East Pakistani Hindus, in this case at least.

But the numbers do have a relevance in the context of the thread, and most discussions on the events in 1971. Many Indians will usually throw in canards about 'PA killed millions in 1971', so when your own quoted report debunks this oft repeated historical lie, the lie must be highlighted. There is nothing 'strawmannish' about this, I was rather specific in making that particular argument separately.

Numbers have no relevance to the post I made.

There is no justification for the rebel/terrorist massacres of tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of non-Bengali innocent men, women and children (as pointed out in the first few pages of this thread). 'Domestic law' does not authorize those kinds of massacres of innocents. That you would even try and justify those atrocities by Indian supported Bengali rebels/terrorists shows us the depths of hatred and intellectual dishonesty you have sunk to.

Those are the words of ICJ, not mine. And I will again reiterate, the public in general has every right, whether sanctioned by domestic or international law or not, to resist violently the extermination campaign run by the very State that is supposed to protect them. There is no intellectual dishonesty here. The intellectual dishonesty is in your attempt to try and draw a moral equivalency between the two.

Here is a past post by Bilal Haider:

None of these would have had happened if the State of Pakistan chose to act in a manner a modern State is expected to act. The onus is on the State of Pakistan and those who ran it, because the first cause lies with them, not with the Bengalis.

 

[toxic_pus]

Oh, you mean yet more unsubstantiated numbers the Indians and other pulled out of their collective rear ends ...

Actually India kept a record of the refugees for an extended period of time. Although, I would admit that once the flow swelled into tens of thousands per day, keeping of record became impossible. Also, there were Red Cross teams as well as UN teams at these refugee camps.

You may choose to cherry pick how you wish to define 'Indian intervention', but any rational individual would agree that India's covert support for rebels/terrorists in April 1971 amounts to 'intervention', and a hostile act against sovereign state. Glad to see you have finally stopped denying this.

In May, the recorded number of refugees were somewhere in excess of 2 million (I will post the exact number shortly)

I don't really care about 'political support', it is the military support, that enabled the East Pakistani rebels/terrorists to carry out their blood bath against innocent non-Bengali residents, and therefore prolonged the violence and poured fuel on it, that is the issue and is what you wish to 'hide'.

Military support came after the political support. Is that so hard to understand. (I will try to quote Sisson and Rose later on)

Operation Searchlight, as has been already argued, came about after weeks of violence by the rebels/terrorists in East Pakistan. India chose to pour even more fuel on the fire.

Rubbish. There was no justification for Operation Searchlight and even the Pakistani White Paper struggled to put forward an argument. The death toll was reported to be somewhere in two figures and all were sporadic stray incidents.

You can keep avoiding the issue and keep distorting history instead ...

Right.

Well, that is for him to say to me, unless you are now 'The Great Mahashirijabalmanagalbangal Mind reader' as well.

Sure. Why not.

 

[toxic_pus]

Eyewitness accounts can be properly recorded and investigated and corroborated from other accounts for inconsistencies/consistencies, along with using previous data from various government records (tax, land, census, medical, etc.) and through compiling information from people with missing relatives and checking that against the refugee population in neighboring countries.

Neither do you have any semblance of idea about rural Bengal, and that too of 1971, nor do you understand the extend to which PA went, once the fall was certain, to leave the new emerging State of Bangladesh crippled.

Also, the records (hilarious, I must say) were with Pakistan, and you know very well how they co-operated.

There are ways to corroborate these accounts to some degree, but it appears people just want to throw around fanciful accusations instead to malign and denigrate the PA and Pakistan.

No there aren't. It is impossible.