The Aryans did not come from India; they conquered it

[SoulSpokesman]

@Joe Shearer

What the Brahmins tried their level best to convert into a work-based occupational group, or jati,

As you know, I have no formal education in these matters but I am inclined to believe that bammans had nothing to do with it. There was a strong ecological and economic rationale to form hereditary endogamous occupational groups - an argument which is made by some geographers to justify the caste system.

Regards

 

[Joe Shearer]

Excellent as always Joe!!

Could you articulate a little more on eastern and north-eastern stock please. I'm particularly interested in the native Assam and adjoining area's populace of 2000 BCE to 1200 CE (i.e. prior to arrival of the Ahoms)....

You are a mind-reader! Not enough work done on that, and I am dying to read what they find. Being reportedly 30% Tibeto-Burmese myself, this is of vital interest to me - to all of us.

And your point about the pre-Ahom status is very sharp. Most of us don't know, for instance, that most of Terai and beyond areas in north India (beyond meaning southward, NOT northward) were under Tibetan rule for some time in the 10th and 11th centuries; remember, this was exactly the time that Islam had come to what some later called Khorasan, and was pushing back Hindu Shahis in Afghanistan, Uzbegs and Turkish tribes on the steppes, and the imperial Tibetans in between, back towards the Tibetan Plateau.

I really wish somebody would get down to this.

From wikipedia..

Kenneth W. Jones quoted that "the Khatris claimed with some justice and increasing insistence, the status of Rajputs, or Kshatriyas, a claim not granted by those above but illustrative of their ambiguous position on the great varna scale of class divisions" [14] Khatris claim that they were warriors who took to trade.[15] The 19th-century Indians and the British administrators failed to agree whether the Khatri claim of Kshatriya status should be accepted, since the overwhelming majority of them were engaged in Vaishya (mercantile) occupations.[16] There are Khatris that are found in other states of India and they follow different professions in each region. The Khatris of Gujarat and Rajasthan are said to have tailoring skills like "Darji" (tailor) caste.[17

Khatris maybe claiming higher status in anger of not being accepted as Kshatriya

Quite possible.

I don't like to get into these ethno-nationalist fights. Best leave them to battle it out with whoever is opposing them.

Essentially, the subject of your extract could well have been part of the problem.

@Joe Shearer

What the Brahmins tried their level best to convert into a work-based occupational group, or jati,

As you know, I have no formal education in these matters but I am inclined to believe that bammans had nothing to do with it. There was a strong ecological and economic rationale to form hereditary endogamous occupational groups - an argument which is made by some geographers to justify the caste system.

Regards

Personally, I doubt it strongly. There is a detailed discussion about to start elsewhere. That might be interesting to follow.

What your quoted 'geographers' have cited is not by itself a problem; prophets of a unique Indian development model are a problem. Their solutions are to revert to the static form of society, a form that was never imposed on society until the 7th and 8th centuries. That is a very long time - from roughly 1500 BC to 600 AD, about 2,100 years - for occupational fluidity. And it is also very curious that it suddenly closed up, people could not change their occupation any more and the locks were put on.

 

[Kambojaric]

It is difficult to tweeze out what is caste and what is tribe, in this context. What the Brahmins tried their level best to convert into a work-based occupational group, or jati, those who had nothing to do with the Brahmins saw these distinctions and differences as tribal. The names are the same, the people are the same, on one side, and within the penumbra of an egalitarian religion, they are perceived as tribes, on the other side, with a religion and a culture obsessed with taxonomy, they are perceived as castes and sub-castes.

I would dare say that it might even predate the advent of egalitarian religions. In Sutta 93 of the Majjhima Nikaya for example Buddha states

"What do you think, Assalayana? Have you heard that in Yana & Kamboja and other outlying countries there are only two castes — masters & slaves — and that having been a master one (can) become a slave, and that having been a slave one (can) become a master?".

This denotes a system more similar to Greco-Roman or Persian slave master relationship. At the end of the day however yes, there is nothing differentiating a Sethi from either side of the border other than religion. The values that we derive from them ultimately shape perceptions of who we are.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I would dare say that it might even predate the advent of egalitarian religions. In Sutta 93 of the Majjhima Nikaya for example Buddha states

"What do you think, Assalayana? Have you heard that in Yana & Kamboja and other outlying countries there are only two castes — masters & slaves — and that having been a master one (can) become a slave, and that having been a slave one (can) become a master?".

This denotes a system more similar to Greco-Roman or Persian slave master relationship. At the end of the day however yes, there is nothing differentiating a Sethi from either side of the border other than religion. The values that we derive from them ultimately shape perceptions of who we are.

You have a point, an excellent one! Of course! And, in fact, manumission is usually, in such societies, very carefully structured; escape from servitude is always possible.

A striking point, Sir.

 

[thesolar65]

Just when I need a Time Machine desparately........ There isn't one! For these kinds of threads...

 

[war&peace]

Who are Khatri? do they have presence in Pakistan?

Khatri is a hindu caste...above or below Brahmin..

@Kaptaan @Talwar e Pakistan something of your interest guys..

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Another clue: the proportion of Indians who can tolerate cows’ milk decreases markedly towards the east, suggesting that cattle-herders migrated into the country from the west.

Heres the map, peaks in Pakistan, Sindh; fades off in North Western India.

correlates with milk consumption

The culture depicted in Sanskrit texts has different traits. It was largely rural and pastoral, relied on iron instead of bronze and appears to have used horses, chariots and bows and arrows—all of which are absent from the original Indus settlements.

Vedic/Sanskrit texts regarded the people/Kingdoms inhabiting modern day Pakistan as having a separate culture and being a seperate people/race. They were despised for their hostility towards Brahmins and Casteism.


"I remember from the days of my youth that a slaughter-ground for kine and a space for storing intoxicating spirits always distinguish the entrances of the abodes of the (Vahika) kings. On some very secret mission I had to live among the Vahikas. In consequence of such residence the conduct of these people is well known to me. There is a town of the name of Sakala (modern day Sialkote), a river of the name of Apaga, and a clan of the Vahikas known by the name of the Jarttikas. The practices of these people are very censurable. They drink the liquor called Gauda, and eat fried barley with it. They also eat beef with garlic. They also eat cakes of flour mixed with meat, and boiled rice that is bought from others. Of righteous practices they have none. (8,44)"

"Where these five rivers, Shatadru, Vipasha, the third Iravati, Chandrabhaga and Vitasta flow and where there are Pilu-forests and (where) Sindhu is the sixth to flow out, this country is called Aratta…”

"that (region) where these five rivers, emerging from the mountains flow, this Aratta is called Balhika where the Arya should not stay even for two days"

"The Prasthalas, the Madras, the Gandharas, the Arattas, those called Khasas, the Vasatis, the Sindhus and the Sauviras are almost as blamable in their practices (8:44)." (All of the named Kingdoms fall within modern-day Pakistan)

The Kingdoms in modern-day Pakistan were referred to as "Vahika" or "Bahika" meaning "outsider". The people were considered degraded Kshatriyas for their hostility towards Vedic culture and Casteism.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Something that never ceases to catch me off guard:

During a 'normal' discussion, an average Pakistani knows nothing about India or Indians, least of all about Hindu Indians and their practices, beliefs and mythical or epic or scriptural passages.

When they are not under observation, however, an amazing amount of information comes pouring out. Then they know about the Vedas, with specific reference to the differences among the four, and the theogony of the Vedic Age; they know about the Vedic language and the lifestyle depicted in the Vedas; they know about the social structure and the divisions in society described there; they know about how with their increasing access to the middle reaches of the Ganga-Yamuna Valley, their earlier point of entry became more and more remote, and more and more alien; how Buddhism impacted the then Hindu practices, and how it became a way of life for Indians in the Ganga Valley; how the Greek invaders and the inhabitants of a small kingdom in Alexander's way clashed, and what may, or may not have happened in that last of the four set piece battles that Alexander fought; the caste system and possible modern-day social foot print within what is today Pakistan of that system; the role of Rajputs and of other clans and castes within the then Hindu and Buddhist and Jain states of India; the way of life in mediaeval India, before the advent of Islam; the detailed narrative within the Chachnama, and on and on.

There must be a built-in off and on switch, that brings on this flood of memory on occasion, and shuts it off firmly, leaving a monotheist individual totally ignorant of the practices of these pagans next door.

Remarkable.

 

[Kambojaric]

Something that never ceases to catch me off guard:

During a 'normal' discussion, an average Pakistani knows nothing about India or Indians, least of all about Hindu Indians and their practices, beliefs and mythical or epic or scriptural passages.

When they are not under observation, however, an amazing amount of information comes pouring out. Then they know about the Vedas, with specific reference to the differences among the four, and the theogony of the Vedic Age; they know about the Vedic language and the lifestyle depicted in the Vedas; they know about the social structure and the divisions in society described there; they know about how with their increasing access to the middle reaches of the Ganga-Yamuna Valley, their earlier point of entry became more and more remote, and more and more alien; how Buddhism impacted the then Hindu practices, and how it became a way of life for Indians in the Ganga Valley; how the Greek invaders and the inhabitants of a small kingdom in Alexander's way clashed, and what may, or may not have happened in that last of the four set piece battles that Alexander fought; the caste system and possible modern-day social foot print within what is today Pakistan of that system; the role of Rajputs and of other clans and castes within the then Hindu and Buddhist and Jain states of India; the way of life in mediaeval India, before the advent of Islam; the detailed narrative within the Chachnama, and on and on.

There must be a built-in off and on switch, that brings on this flood of memory on occasion, and shuts it off firmly, leaving a monotheist individual totally ignorant of the practices of these pagans next door.

Remarkable.

There is a growing number of people interested in the history and culture of the region which they inhabit. Whilst historically many Pakistanis have stayed clear of this topic due to the fear of being termed "Indian", there is a growing realisation that the two do not go hand in hand. One can read and understand the history of the Indus region without being a supporter of a union with the Republic of India. Personally I think this is good as this will eventually lead to an Iberian/Spain like process where a state born on the basis of religion eventually comes to terms with its predecessors in a healthy manner. Pakistan is and will remain a Muslim country, but that does not mean or require Arabization.

 

[Jaanbaz]

There must be a built-in off and on switch, that brings on this flood of memory on occasion, and shuts it off firmly, leaving a monotheist individual totally ignorant of the practices of these pagans next door.

Its hidden somewhere in the genes.

 

[Joe Shearer]

There is a growing number of people interested in the history and culture of the region which they inhabit. Whilst historically many Pakistanis have stayed clear of this topic due to the fear of being termed "Indian", there is a growing realisation that the two do not go hand in hand. One can read and understand the history of the Indus region without being a supporter of a union with the Republic of India. Personally I think this is good as this will eventually lead to an Iberian/Spain like process where a state born on the basis of religion eventually comes to terms with its predecessors in a healthy manner. Pakistan is and will remain a Muslim country, but that does not mean or require Arabization.

I liked your reply, but do hope that you realise my comment was not intended for you; not at all. There are other members, sometimes ignoring all the things I had mentioned in a most pointed manner, who then break out into the most learned disquisition at the most unexpected moment. Needless to add, it is engaging, but I did want to share my mild amusement at the phenomenon.

As it happens, what you have stated is something most desirable; any reasonable person must hope for that denouement, even if it takes a few decades more or less. Since you mentioned Spain, even up until their Civil War, they had not got over the overhang of their religion-based state, and the attendant social conservatism that accompanies it. So that is from Ferdinand and Isabella (actually from the , to Juan Carlos? Worth the wait, and my fellow countrymen, well-intentioned Indians who keep jumping up and down wishing for a swifter transition should remember this episode and hold on.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Its hidden somewhere in the genes.

So now we know.

 

[Hamza913]

Khatri, Jatt, Brahmin, Rajput, Kamboj, pathan etc are some of the prominent Aryan races in south asia. Both races are found in northern India and Pakistan.

Yes, but the ones in Hindustan have much less Eurasian in them than the ones in Afghanistan or Pakistan, due to our countries being at the forefront of these migrations.

 

[DrasticMeasure]

Who are Khatri? do they have presence in Pakistan?

Do you watch Indian movies/bollywood or cricket?? Ever heard of Kapoor, Khanna, Malhotra, Roshan, Dhawan, Kohli etc etc.

Khatris are probably the most educated, fair skinned and financially most prosperous caste in India even ahead of Brahmins. They are everywhere where there is money, fame and literacy.

Yes, but the ones in Hindustan have much less Eurasian in them than the ones in Afghanistan or Pakistan, due to our countries being at the forefront of these migrations.

Well good for you guys. What exactly do you guys plan to do with those good looks??

 

[Hamza913]

Well good for you guys. What exactly do you guys plan to do with those good looks??

???

Where does good looks come into this?