The Armor Division of Pakistan Army

[PakFactor]

One thing confuses me is that why didn't we induct a few more T80UDs in the past!!! These highly versatile beasts form the backbone of our desert strike corps. For the price of a few F16s ,we could have formed another STRIKE CORP. I would be extremely happy if our Generals come out of this defensive mindset. Throughout the military history, offence has always been the best defence.
Maybe i might be jumping the guns a bit too early? PA with all these recent inductions from Italy,China,US and Others might be keeping a very very big surprise for the enemy,You never know!!!

Don't know I've always questioned our General's thinking of minimum deterrence and acquiring more defensive platforms than offensive maybe @PanzerKiel can give us more insight into this thinking since he's going through the process right now. Carl Von Clausewitz and later Prussian Commanders believed in Speed, Speed and Speed backed by a Total War Concept of using all of the national resources to reach the conflict's objective and attain victory. We've last 70+ years just been able to make the spear but not sharpen it and rather fight a war of attrition -- the Feb 27th 2019 is just another example of having the spear but not sharpening it and I agree with @MastanKhan that it was a lost opportunity to inflict pain on the enemy by letting the other 9 ACs go that were on lock, this sort of action rather helps embolden the enemy, I respect our officers in the armed forces, but this mantra of "Minimum Deterrence" has to go because you look weak and ineffective in front of the enemy.

 

[Gryphon]

I am not counting 10 and 12 as part of Mech Div.

If possible, you may find out that the number of Armd Bdes of PA jumped by a big number in the last 5 years. With this development, NEW armr regts were raised and SEVERAL inf units were converted to MIBs. This all has happened in the last 5 yrs. Where all these new armd bdes went, lets keep this open for discussion.

You may not be able to fit in all the available armr regts in armd bdes since you may not have visibility over the newly raised bdes.

I am aware of some of these brigades, my assessment is they constitute PA RAPIDs.

Do please 44 Inf Div to your ORBAT as well.

Light Inf Div, HQ Gwadar.

Raising complete?

Try finding all Armr Bdes....14, 15,16, 17, etc etc, a long list...... 25, 124....list goes on.....

@Gryphon Surprised?

14 is IABG, aware of 15, 16, 17 and few more.

Not surprised.

Standard infantry was lacking, not the MIB.

Have they added an Inf Bde to Armd Div, like Mech Div?

.....and OF COURSE it was never your intention to make any harmless Indian reader's flesh creep.

We won't be counting sheep jumping over fences to fall asleep any longer, we will be counting armoured brigades jumping over the Jammu Tawi.

For your reading

https://viewsweek.com/fighting-21st-century-wars/

 

[PakFactor]

@MastanKhan

When I think of our military talking about "Minimum Deterrance" these quote's come to mind from Carl's book:

- Kind-hearted people might of course think there was some ingenious way to disarm or defeat the enemy without too much bloodshed, and might imagine this is the true goal of the art of war. Pleasant as it sounds, it is a fallacy that must be exposed: War is such a dangerous business that mistakes that come from kindness are the very worst.

- to introduce into the philosophy of war itself a principle of moderation would be an absurdity

Sadly, our officer's follow the above thinking, when it should be the exact opposite.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan

When I think of our military talking about "Minimum Deterrance" these quote's come to mind from Carl's book:

- Kind-hearted people might of course think there was some ingenious way to disarm or defeat the enemy without too much bloodshed, and might imagine this is the true goal of the art of war. Pleasant as it sounds, it is a fallacy that must be exposed: War is such a dangerous business that mistakes that come from kindness are the very worst.

- to introduce into the philosophy of war itself a principle of moderation would be an absurdity

Sadly, our officer's follow the above thinking, when it should be the exact opposite.

Hi,

That term is born out of Inherent Incompetence & Cowardice---Lack of understanding your worth and value---let me give you an example---.

Pakistani military thinks itself like little children---" we are peace loving---don't bother us---we will not bother anyone---".

And yet they have over 200 nuc weapons that can destroy the whole world economically 5 times over---.

See---the british beat the dignity honor and conquest out of the minds of the muslims or the sub continent---.

The areas of punjab and Frontier never brought out a conquerer but only gave soldiers to be led by outsiders---.

So---these Punjabi Pashtun Generals---the commanders will inherently have very limited vision because it is a part of their genetic make up---.

As I stated many a times---a true conquerer and a leader nation of the Islamic world in military would have welcomed the war in Yemen and taken military position---built and army navy air force and civilian force in that region---but an inherent coward would not do anything---.

The test of a man is during a crisis---that is where his true disposition will come out---.

The first major major failure came out in the Yemen crisis and the second came out on the 26th/27th feb---.

Now look back---Zia Ul Haq---that little short punjabi Muhajir guy---but monster of a man in size---. When he got the request from King Hussein for help---smashed the PLO terrorists to kingdom come without giving a second thought---and going against the wishes of his commander.

Look at another muhajir son---Gen Pervaiz Musharraf---an urdu speaking warrior---spun the enemy around at Kargil but failed due to another punjabi weakling Nawaz Sharif---.

Now again---we have an honest and a capable leadership---but he is a Coward at heart so far---.

I do not know if this is the destiny of pakistan or what---but it is a real problem---weak incompetent leadership---.

 

[Armchair]

@MastanKhan

When I think of our military talking about "Minimum Deterrance" these quote's come to mind from Carl's book:

- Kind-hearted people might of course think there was some ingenious way to disarm or defeat the enemy without too much bloodshed, and might imagine this is the true goal of the art of war. Pleasant as it sounds, it is a fallacy that must be exposed: War is such a dangerous business that mistakes that come from kindness are the very worst.

- to introduce into the philosophy of war itself a principle of moderation would be an absurdity

Sadly, our officer's follow the above thinking, when it should be the exact opposite.

You put into words thoughts I've so often hand. Really what a shame. I'm disappointed to the core. They failed Jinnah and Iqbal. But what could one expect from the British Indian Army?

 

[PanzerKiel]

I am aware of some of these brigades, my assessment is they constitute PA RAPIDs.



Light Inf Div, HQ Gwadar.

Raising complete?



14 is IABG, aware of 15, 16, 17 and few more.

Not surprised.



Have they added an Inf Bde to Armd Div, like Mech Div?



For your reading

https://viewsweek.com/fighting-21st-century-wars/

Of course we are not having real RAPIDS, but these numerous brigades are otherwise there.

14 is IABG but part of 26 Mech, just like 2 IABG and 12 IABG.

Have they added an Inf Bde to Armd Div, like Mech Div?

Of course not. Problem in Khem Karan was , as per plan, 1 Armored Division was supposed to breakout of bridgehead made by 11 Div (standard doctrine). But on ground, it tried to breakout of a bridgehead made by One infantry battalion. 11 Division has more share in this debacle.

 

[Gryphon]

Of course we are not having real RAPIDS, but these numerous brigades are otherwise there.

14 is IABG but part of 26 Mech, just like 2 IABG and 12 IABG.

Plz don't tell me divisional armd regts were withdrawn to form these 'numerous' brigades.

Some of these carry div insignias, so why not call the div RAPID?

12 IABG was at Malir once, still part of 25 Mech Div?

 

[Spasha]

https://defence-blog.com/army/china-reportedly-begin-delivery-of-modern-vt4-to-pakistan.html2
Inner Mongolia First Machinery Group Co.,Ltd., subsidiary of China North Industries Group Corporation (NORINCO), reportedly begins delivering new VT4 main battle tanks to Pakistan.

In mid-April 2020, at the Chinese tank factory located in Baotou in the province of Inner Mongolia, was held the ceremony of shipment of the first batch of VT4 main battle tanks equipped with explosive reactive armour (ERA) (Option FY-IV) for a foreign customer.

 

[PanzerKiel]

Plz don't tell me divisional armd regts were withdrawn to form these 'numerous' brigades.

Some of these carry div insignias, so why not call the div RAPID?

12 IABG was at Malir once, still part of 25 Mech Div?

No, Div regts are still there.

Which divs or insignias?

Regarding 12 IABG, yes.

 

[Gryphon]

No, Div regts are still there.

Which divs or insignias?

Regarding 12 IABG, yes.

Gosh, it must be raining tanks in Pak! Where are tanks coming from for so many regts?

 

[PanzerKiel]

Gosh, it must be raining tanks in Pak! Where are tanks coming from for so many regts?

Lets move on dear.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

More of a racist rant than a productive post.

Black September was likely an ISIS like operation with Israelis using proxies in form of Palestinians to sow seeds of chaos in Jordan.

Same Pashtuns liberated Kashmir and Defeated Soviets.

Same Punjabis valiantly repelled India in 65 and suffered immense bloodshed in 1947 in trains.

Hi,

That term is born out of Inherent Incompetence & Cowardice---Lack of understanding your worth and value---let me give you an example---.

Pakistani military thinks itself like little children---" we are peace loving---don't bother us---we will not bother anyone---".

And yet they have over 200 nuc weapons that can destroy the whole world economically 5 times over---.

See---the british beat the dignity honor and conquest out of the minds of the muslims or the sub continent---.

The areas of punjab and Frontier never brought out a conquerer but only gave soldiers to be led by outsiders---.

So---these Punjabi Pashtun Generals---the commanders will inherently have very limited vision because it is a part of their genetic make up---.

As I stated many a times---a true conquerer and a leader nation of the Islamic world in military would have welcomed the war in Yemen and taken military position---built and army navy air force and civilian force in that region---but an inherent coward would not do anything---.

The test of a man is during a crisis---that is where his true disposition will come out---.

The first major major failure came out in the Yemen crisis and the second came out on the 26th/27th feb---.

Now look back---Zia Ul Haq---that little short punjabi Muhajir guy---but monster of a man in size---. When he got the request from King Hussein for help---smashed the PLO terrorists to kingdom come without giving a second thought---and going against the wishes of his commander.

Look at another muhajir son---Gen Pervaiz Musharraf---an urdu speaking warrior---spun the enemy around at Kargil but failed due to another punjabi weakling Nawaz Sharif---.

Now again---we have an honest and a capable leadership---but he is a Coward at heart so far---.

I do not know if this is the destiny of pakistan or what---but it is a real problem---weak incompetent leadership---.

Nawaz Sharif is a traitor to all of Pakistan especially Punjabis. Still far better and much more saner than Altaf Bhai.

 

[MastanKhan]

More of a racist rant than a productive post.

Black September was likely an ISIS like operation with Israelis using proxies in form of Palestinians to sow seeds of chaos in Jordan.

Same Pashtuns liberated Kashmir and Defeated Soviets.

Same Punjabis valiantly repelled India in 65 and suffered immense bloodshed in 1947 in trains.

Nawaz Sharif is a traitor to all of Pakistan especially Punjabis. Still far better and much more saner than Altaf Bhai.

Hi,

This is beyond your pay grade to understand---so let it be---.

Giving stupid reasoning for a historical event in Jordan---.

 

[Ahmet Pasha]

But it's within you pay grade to be a douche without knowing what you really are trying to talk about.

Hi,

This is beyond your pay grade to understand---so let it be---.

Military works by chain of command. You obey orders which you are given. Gen Zia received request from Jordanian military. He ran it through GHQ, GHQ gave green light he executed. Simple. There's no personal opinion invovled.

 

[Signalian]

You may not be able to fit in all the available armr regts in armd bdes since you may not have visibility over the newly raised bdes.

MBT Type in them ?