TF-X Turkish Fighter & Trainer Aircraft Projects

[WebMaster]

thats one that you are told by your manipulative government..


also something you guys cant stand is if a turks give you contra not understanding that this is a international forum and not in germany..

by the way this forum is gone into a shiithole,, thats why most turks left this unbarable area.. and making you someone like the the head of this subforum is like the cherry on top of the cake - a clear sighn for people of thinking what the forum owners want => punish the left turks here


but hey ho mods I am not really active here anymore because there is no need..

Dieno is not a mod for this sub forum. So your your opinion holds no value.

Also the notion that whole world is against Turks is imaginary. Turks are more dear to us than China but thats for another topic. Lets focus on the thread.

Hi, i am planning to open one seperate thread regarding "Opinions about TF-X" so that this thread would be used for sharing news, and that thread would be used for forum members to put their opinions, so information wouldn't disappear among trolls/speculations. What do you think about this idea?

Where are the disagreement occurring? I believe that people should discuss with facts and sources regardless and at one point agree to disagree. However, i have no issue if you want to start another thread based on opinion and speculations. But even in that speculations should have some kind of source behind it.

 

[Turcici Imperium]

Two days ago, i invested my night to read more stuff in this thread to learn some new information, what i saw was a flaming war between forum members for dozens of pages based on person's opinions and speculations. I see no benefit in that. IMO, this thread would be more useful if only development informations shared in here, and that other thread would be used for the opinions of the people so flaming could be kept away from actual information that some people might want to read without wasting their time reading unnecessery blaming game between members.

If you are okay with this idea, there might be a need for one Turkish moderator to enforce order, for moving speculations to that thread, and moving information to this thread.

 

[WebMaster]

Two days ago, i invested my night to read more stuff in this thread to learn some new information, what i saw was a flaming war between forum members for dozens of pages based on person's opinions and speculations. I see no benefit in that. IMO, this thread would be more useful if only development informations shared in here, and that other thread would be used for the opinions of the people so flaming could be kept away from actual information that some people might want to read without wasting their time reading unnecessery blaming game between members.

If you are okay with this idea, there might be a need for one Turkish moderator to enforce order, for moving speculations to that thread, and moving information to this thread.

It's fine if you want to take a lead on that. New thread title should be Facts & News perhaps so opinions can remain in this thread.

 

[Melkor]

What a shit fest.

 

[dr.knowhow]

Latest news regarding TF-X development.

Uçak motorunda stratejik iş birliği

HAVELSAN, yerli uçak motoru geliştirilmesine de destek verecek. Şirket, tasarım ve test doğrulama altyapısını geliştirerek TR Motor’un ihtiyaçlarının karşılanmasını sağlayacak

www.milliyet.com.tr

HAVELSAN’ın sahip olduğu simülasyon yazılımı teknolojisi, Milli Muharip Uçak Projesi'nden sonra uçak için yürütülen motor projesinde de kullanılacak.
Alınan bilgiye göre, Türk savunma sanayisinde yazılım tabanlı çözümlere imza atan HAVELSAN ile Milli Muharip Uçak için özgün bir turbofan jet savaş uçağı motoru geliştirmekle görevlendirilen TR Motor arasında Stratejik İş Birliği Anlaşması imzalandı.

Anlaşma kapsamında HAVELSAN, simülasyon ve modelleme teknolojilerinde elde ettiği birikimle TR Motor’un yerli uçak motoru geliştirme sürecine katkı sağlayacak.

HAVELSAN’ın daha önce yaptığı projelerden sahip olduğu motor ve platformların plant modelleriyle birlikte motor aviyonikleri konusundaki teknolojik birikimi, yerli uçak motoru geliştirme süreçlerinde kullanılacak. Bu kapsamda HAVELSAN, TR Motor personeline eğitim de verecek.

Şirket, plant ve kontrol modellerinin tasarım ve test doğrulama altyapılarının kurulmasını ve bilgisayar tabanlı tasarım araçlarının geliştirilerek TR Motor’un ihtiyaçlarının karşılanmasını sağlayacak. TR Motor’un tümleşik sayısal ikiz tabanlı tasarım ve geliştirme sürecine de HAVELSAN destek verecek.

Uçuş kontrol sistemi

HAVELSAN, kendi geliştirdiği bir uçuş kontrol sistemi yazılımının, simülatörün mevcut plant ve motor modeliyle beraber çalıştırılması ve analiz edilmesi süreçlerinde de TR Motor ile birlikte çalışacak.

Motor aviyonik kontrol ünitelerinin geliştirilmesi ve sertifikasyonu süreçlerinde de HAVELSAN destek sağlayacak. Bu sistemlerde TÜBİTAK BİLGEM’in geliştirdiği yerli ve milli Gerçek Zamanlı İşletim Sistemi (GİS) kullanılacak. Ağustos ayında TÜBİTAK ile HAVELSAN arasında imzalanan sözleşme ile GİS’in yurt içi ve dışındaki tanıtımı, yaygınlaştırılması, pazarlanması, satışı, eğitimleri, kart destek paketlerinin geliştirilmesi, saha desteği, bakım ve idame faaliyetleri ile ilgili hakları HAVELSAN’a lisanslanmıştı.

Yeni alanlar...

HAVELSAN Genel Müdürü Mehmet Akif Nacar, "Bu yazılım teknolojisini, simülatör teknolojisini motor tasarımıyla bir araya getirip daha ileriye dönük yeni alanlara açılmaya çalışıyoruz" değerlendirmesinde bulundu.

TR Motor Genel Müdür Osman Dur da TR Motor’un elinde Türkiye'nin en stratejik projelerinden biri olduğunu, bu iş birliğinden güzel sonuçlar elde edileceğine inandığını kaydetti.

Havelsan and TR-Motor have signed an agreement and are now cooperating. It hasn't been stated specifically which solution Havelsan is going to be providing, though it is stated as 'improving TR Motor's infrastructure in designing and evaluating their products'. Also Havelsan is a military IT solutions provider so I guess it's mostly about software designing tools and evaluation tools. It could also be some simulation tools as well I guess but nothing is certain.

They would also help TR Motor in designing the flight controls, though since TR Motor is developing the engine not the airframe, I guess they rather mean that they are helping out TR Motor in developing the FADEC and integrating it with the flight controls of the aircraft not the flight control it self. They say that the FADEC would be based on an OS developed by Tubitak.



So things made known so far regarding the engine of TF-X :

To be ready by 2029 (https://www.savunmasanayiidergilik.com/tr/HaberDergilik/Milli-Muharip-Ucak-in-motorunda-hedef-2029)

Going to be designed and manufactured by TR Motor so connection with TEI engineers expected. Turkish IP so almost zero to no input from GE which is partial owner of TEI

Havelsan to provide and assist in developing, evaluating and certifing the software needed for the engine. FADEC based on domestic OS by Tubitak.


On the other hand, there has also been news about Turkey being interested in RD-33 for TF-X and Klimov willing to provide(https://www.savunmasanayiidergilik....Milli-Muharip-Ucak-a-Rus-motoru-uygun-olur-mu). Though things as it stands seems to be that Turkey is indeed trying to work on with its domestic engine. On top of that, RD-33MK's thrust figures are just too low for a plane as big as TF-X. Well, unless Turkey is okay with it being an elephant of course.

Maybe the Hurjet could be powered by RD-33 IMO. Suitable thrust figures, thus the diplomatic relationship between the two are more than fine it seems on grander scheme. Yes there have been some conflicts of interest in northern Syria and Nagorno-Karabakh but I don't think those two instances were severe enough that Russia, who of all sold S-400, wouldn't be willing to sell some RD-33s.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Latest news regarding TF-X development.

Uçak motorunda stratejik iş birliği

HAVELSAN, yerli uçak motoru geliştirilmesine de destek verecek. Şirket, tasarım ve test doğrulama altyapısını geliştirerek TR Motor’un ihtiyaçlarının karşılanmasını sağlayacak

www.milliyet.com.tr

Havelsan and TR-Motor have signed an agreement and are now cooperating. It hasn't been stated specifically which solution Havelsan is going to be providing, though it is stated as 'improving TR Motor's infrastructure in designing and evaluating their products'. Also Havelsan is a military IT solutions provider so I guess it's mostly about software designing tools and evaluation tools. It could also be some simulation tools as well I guess but nothing is certain.

They would also help TR Motor in designing the flight controls, though since TR Motor is developing the engine not the airframe, I guess they rather mean that they are helping out TR Motor in developing the FADEC and integrating it with the flight controls of the aircraft not the flight control it self. They say that the FADEC would be based on an OS developed by Tubitak.



So things made known so far regarding the engine of TF-X :

To be ready by 2029 (https://www.savunmasanayiidergilik.com/tr/HaberDergilik/Milli-Muharip-Ucak-in-motorunda-hedef-2029)

Going to be designed and manufactured by TR Motor so connection with TEI engineers expected. Turkish IP so almost zero to no input from GE which is partial owner of TEI

Havelsan to provide and assist in developing, evaluating and certifing the software needed for the engine. FADEC based on domestic OS by Tubitak.


On the other hand, there has also been news about Turkey being interested in RD-33 for TF-X and Klimov willing to provide(https://www.savunmasanayiidergilik....Milli-Muharip-Ucak-a-Rus-motoru-uygun-olur-mu). Though things as it stands seems to be that Turkey is indeed trying to work on with its domestic engine. On top of that, RD-33MK's thrust figures are just too low for a plane as big as TF-X. Well, unless Turkey is okay with it being an elephant of course.

Maybe the Hurjet could be powered by RD-33 IMO. Suitable thrust figures, thus the diplomatic relationship between the two are more than fine it seems on grander scheme. Yes there have been some conflicts of interest in northern Syria and Nagorno-Karabakh but I don't think those two instances were severe enough that Russia, who of all sold S-400, wouldn't be willing to sell some RD-33s.

Contrary to popular belief, Rolls Royce is still on the project. The first deal was for conceptual design, and it's done. A new agreement will be signed in the coming months. Some fools' quarrels are unnecessary because nobody has said that TFX will start its duty in 2 years, but nobody is gasping someone for the vote, actually money is spent. According to the information I have obtained, the team that developed Spews II (BAE Systems - Aselsan - MIKE(now Aselsan) engineers are making significant progress for EW command systems for the new generation AESA with the same staff.

 

[dr.knowhow]

Contrary to popular belief, Rolls Royce is still on the project. The first deal was for conceptual design, and it's done. A new agreement will be signed in the coming months. Some fools' quarrels are unnecessary because nobody has said that TFX will start its duty in 2 years, but nobody is gasping someone for the vote, actually money is spent. According to the information I have obtained, the team that developed Spews II (BAE Systems - Aselsan - MIKE(now Aselsan) engineers are making significant progress for EW command systems for the new generation AESA with the same staff.

That's big. So there is indeed some western input into the engine, just not on the level people from outside were expecting. I would suggest that its the TAC role that RR is taking part of? Anyways it's still 8~9 years from now for the engine to be ready. Can you clarify if this "ready" mean "ready for flight test" or "ready for mass production"? My bet lies on it being ready for flight test but a confirmation would be nice indeed.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

That's big. So there is indeed some western input into the engine, just not on the level people from outside were expecting. I would suggest that its the TAC role that RR is taking part of? Anyways it's still 8~9 years from now for the engine to be ready. Can you clarify if this "ready" mean "ready for flight test" or "ready for mass production"? My bet lies on it being ready for flight test but a confirmation would be nice indeed.

Mass production is planned after 8-9 years. It sounds difficult because mass production is a different trick, you may not find the products you can produce in prototype at the same quality in mass production, but we are not 20 years ago, and foreign engineers already provide important critical inputs in TEI's design staff, this was also the case in TS1400, the CEO of the company himself. was frequently repeated by.

 

[dr.knowhow]

@RadarGudumluMuhimmat

One last thing, could you elaborate on the specific budget projection of the MMU and domestic turbofan engine program? I remember the figure to lie somewhere in $ 8~9 billion region for the MMU project but that's what I've read a few years ago. Since then things have changed quite a lot concerning the overall structure of the program as well as the reiterated development schedule.

I expect the overall development cost to lie somewhere in the region of $ 15~20 billion because of the engine development costs, thus the fact that Turkey is no longer pursuing / cannot procure F-35 means that the resource could just as well be reallocated in MMU program albeit there are recent global recession due to Covid. Also, are there any public info regarding Qatari involvement in the engine program? Such as direct investment via BMC and such.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

Mass production is planned after 8-9 years. It sounds difficult because mass production is a different trick, you may not find the products you can produce in prototype at the same quality in mass production, but we are not 20 years ago, and foreign engineers already provide important critical inputs in TEI's design staff, this was also the case in TS1400, the CEO of the company himself. was frequently repeated by.

The cost for the first phase design was $ 1.2 billion (including Rolls Royce). It is planned to pay close to $ 6 billion for this engine only for the future, but Tubitak Mam needed a certain process to process its 3rd generation turbine blade production at this level, and I think it will be completely finished within 1.5 years. We should not consider the budget directly as TRMotor, the subsidiaries also take on these critical tasks, we have limited ability to calculate them all. Turkey and Qatar may also targets the BMC, but I do not think that much to do with Qatar's engine technology, you know, a kingdom country of 1 million people. It should not be looked at only on the basis of TEI, it is forgotten that Kale group supplied nearly 250 parts for the F35 in cooperation with PW.
It is nonsense that they will be replaced by another supplier, the certification of all these parts only takes more than 5 years.

 

[Dai Toruko]

 

[SgtGungHo]

Contrary to popular belief, Rolls Royce is still on the project. The first deal was for conceptual design, and it's done. A new agreement will be signed in the coming months. Some fools' quarrels are unnecessary because nobody has said that TFX will start its duty in 2 years, but nobody is gasping someone for the vote, actually money is spent. According to the information I have obtained, the team that developed Spews II (BAE Systems - Aselsan - MIKE(now Aselsan) engineers are making significant progress for EW command systems for the new generation AESA with the same staff.

Do you have any source that proves Rolls-Royce is still involved in assisting Turkey's development of their turbofan engine? The last time I have heard Foreign Minister of Turkey claimed that Turkey would talk to Rolls-Royce for terms of re-negotiation - in other words, Turkey had failed to persuade Rolls-Royce after the talk was stalled over the issue of Intellectual Property.

Rolls-Royce dials back on project to build new Turkish fighter jet

Turkey to Rolls-Royce: Let’s renegotiate terms for TF-X fighter jet support

 

[SgtGungHo]

Mass production is planned after 8-9 years. It sounds difficult because mass production is a different trick, you may not find the products you can produce in prototype at the same quality in mass production, but we are not 20 years ago, and foreign engineers already provide important critical inputs in TEI's design staff, this was also the case in TS1400, the CEO of the company himself. was frequently repeated by.

What's even more trickier is that Turkey is following the footsteps of French Rafale by trying to build a propotype with a pair of American engines first (by the way even this American engine has not been confirmed by Turkey's partner, GE Aviation) and then building a new production fighter jet with "indigenous" engines. French experienced many years of delay and had a lot of problems with Daasault Rafale even though they had a plenty of experience in building both turbofan engines and fighter jets. I just hope that Turkey which is much less experienced than French of 80's ~ 90's in both departments is not repeating the same mistakes that France did in the past.

 

[RadarGudumluMuhimmat]

What's even more trickier is that Turkey is following the footsteps of French Rafale by trying to build a propotype with a pair of American engines first (by the way even this American engine has not been confirmed by Turkey's partner, GE Aviation) and then building a new production fighter jet with "indigenous" engines. French experienced many years of delay and had a lot of problems with Daasault Rafale even though they had a plenty of experience in building both turbofan engines and fighter jets. I just hope that Turkey which is much less experienced than French of 80's ~ 90's in both departments is not repeating the same mistakes that France did in the past.

These are what my teacher, who directly provided consultancy services in the project, said, yes, we are a country that is a bit too frank and resourceful in defense and aviation, but the people in the project do not interview every 2 days. You will see this already in the coming months. In addition, an official source has never given any information about the shooting of Rolls Royce, the phrase "senior official" of third party media organs does not mean much. What did you mean by the phrase "has not been confirmed"?

 

[SgtGungHo]

These are what my teacher, who directly provided consultancy services in the project, said, yes, we are a country that is a bit too frank and resourceful in defense and aviation, but the people in the project do not interview every 2 days. You will see this already in the coming months. In addition, an official source has never given any information about the shooting of Rolls Royce, the phrase "senior official" of third party media organs does not mean much. What did you mean by the phrase "has not been confirmed"?

I don't think you are ignorant enough to believe Financial Times is not a crediable source for UK industry & business news. I am quoting from Reuters which is basing their story on the FT report

Rolls-Royce scales back on joining Turkish fighter jet project -FT

British engine maker Rolls-Royce has scaled back efforts to join a Turkish programme to build a new fighter jet, the Financial Times reported on Sunday.

www.reuters.com

"Talks between Turkey’s Kale Group and Rolls-Royce, ran into problems last year because of a dispute over the sharing of intellectual property and the involvement of a Qatari-Turkish company"

"Rolls-Royce has all but abandoned efforts to win the bid for the fifth generation fighter aircraft after failing to find a compromise, FT added, citing people familiar with the matter."

That sounds very explicit and blunt and it is essentially confirmed by Turkey which "is keen to revive talks with Rolls-Royce ".

I'd be appreciated if you could provide any sources, preferrably from Rolls-Royce & the UK government, that the dispute over IP issues is solved and the company is working with Turkey for a turbofan engine.