Terrorist Attack On PAF camp Badaber : 29 people massacred, 13 terrorists killed.

[Spectre]

Thank you for raising a very important point.

At the moment, Pakistan boasts the largest intelligence apparatus by manpower however, the problem arises from the fact that the terrorists have also devised strategies to keep information breaches to a minimum even if one of the main culprits is captured. Attacks are broken down into phases, and people are tasked with completing their phase only, no questions asked. For example, there will be a contact who will collect the terrorists from drop point A and keep them for the night before dropping them off at drop point B. He does not know where these guys are coming from and where they are going, the terrorists themselves will know that they are going on a fidai hamla but the exact detail will only be revealed by the last operational handler. To further secure their own position, the attackers might be moved in small groups or individually over a course of weeks to avoid all of them being arrested in a bust.

Sir

Taking an analogy of terrorism as a disease - Whatever military/security options we employ are like paracetamol - which abates the symptoms which in this case are overt attacks on civilians and defense targets. Unless a proper diagnosis is made about the root causes of such disease, there will be a relapse. Root causes in this case may be:

1. Poverty - - Terrorism for Money?
2. Unemployment - Lack of options
3. Misguided Ideology - No idea about what is Islam just brainwashed by some Mullahs or people with nefarious intent.
4. Foreign Influence - Afganishtan/India/US
5. Domestic protection - by some extremist mullahs and their collaborators

Pakistani members would be better able to point out the root-causes anyway my point is we have to eliminate their grievances at the core, re-educate them, provide them with alternative careers, bring in social development in worst affected areas.

Ofcourse none of this can be done until the symptoms abate hence military is absolutely necessary to punish and eliminate those who are lost cases but any military action should be supported politically in terms of rehabilitation and increased political attention on the afflicted areas. Otherwise all the sacrifices and gains would be lost and these scums would produce a new generation of scums in this forever war.

This is were we failed in India during Maoists and Kashmir Insurgency - Hope you guys learn from our mistakes. Keep your politicians on tight leash so that resources go where they are most needed.

Regards

 

[Icarus]

Walls can't be used to slow down the enemy? Yes of-course there is IED, RPG available but a obstruction that possesses the capacity to slow down to prevent any infiltration, is it better than no obstruction where they can easily stroll into and out of? Time has come where excuses like cost or lenght of border, terrain can no longer be accepted.

Its a 2250km border, most of it mountainous. Even if you ignore the cost and length, the structural challenge alone of it will consign the plan to failure. Lets not forget that Musharraf tried to fence the border during his tenure but the erected sections of the fence were uprooted and sold for scrap faster than they were raised.

 

[Shamain]

Promise Taliban keys to Kabul in exchange to ally against TTP and help to wipe out from within Afghanistan.

Shock and awe air strikes in Kunar and Nuristan to take out Fazullah then full ground invasion. This is the only way.

Afghanistan are doing this to spite Pakistan. They don't want it to become peaceful and grow. Unless you de-seat Afghan politicians and somehow bribe your way to pro Pakistani Afghan politicians then time to break off relations with them and take out TTP base.

And send afghan refugees back home.

And @Areesh got banned? :-( He got too angry , tho he was making sense. We have our shares of flaws too .

Its a 2250km border, most of it mountainous. Even if you ignore the cost and length, the structural challenge alone of it will consign the plan to failure. Lets not forget that Musharraf tried to fence the border during his tenure but the erected sections of the fence were uprooted and sold for scrap faster than they were raised.

we shud plant some radioactive explosives or some such crap there. Might work?

 

[IndoCarib]

More like Hindustani terrorists, but seems not a big base, not much loss.

Your own newspapers say they are Taliban. When do you start blamimg yourself for your own failures ?

 

[Icarus]

Promise Taliban keys to Kabul in exchange to ally against TTP and help to wipe out from within Afghanistan.

Shock and awe air strikes in Kunar and Nuristan to take out Fazullah then full ground invasion. This is the only way.

Afghanistan are doing this to spite Pakistan. They don't want it to become peaceful and grow. Unless you de-seat Afghan politicians and somehow bribe your way to pro Pakistani Afghan politicians then time to break off relations with them and take out TTP base.

1. We cannot bomb a sovereign nation and ground incursions are out of the question too.
2. Subverting an internationally recognized government won't gain us many browny points.
3. The Afghan Taliban and TTP are joined at the hip, you may see two heads but start exploring and eventually you find the link, there's no way they are going to turn on their own brethren and weaken themselves. And even if some of the commanders do turn, there is a new commander every 30-50 square kilometer, how many can we convince to side with us in turn for the keys to Kabul?

And send afghan refugees back home.

And @Areesh got banned? :-( He got too angry , tho he was making sense. We have our shares of flaws too .


we shud plant some radioactive explosives or some such crap there. Might work?

1. If you get enough infractions, you get banned automatically, that's what happened I guess.
2. Once again, its 2250km long.

 

[jaibi]

I feel sad that despite spending so much time on PDF people have no idea how LIC work. Firstly, the ISI is not the boogyman, it's an organisation manned by humans. Therefore, from a number of threats that arise in any security calulation set ups some would be captured some would be missed or be encountered later on. This loop is regretted but entirely unavoidable, India has not experienced the same level of LIC as we have so this may be condonable for you guys to get. It was the raised level of alert that thwarted the TTP from doing any real damage. Yes, you read that right: this number of casualty is not real damage as we are at war. Literally.

Secondly, the enemy adapts the local population to camouflage itself in. By eye, you cannot tell who's the TTP and who isn't, this is not a political problem as most people think but a cultural one. For centuries the pakhtun culture, which is highly individualistic, values armament, simplicity and rugged lifestyle. If you were to visit KPK then most of the time you'd be jumping and screaming (not meaning you personally just using second-pov) most of the time because most of the male population looks like the boogyman terrorist you're used to seeing on the media. Though, they're just like you and me, many are highly educated and we're no one to judge them. Thus, the TTP succeed in blending in, notice the timing of the attack, most probably, it was during change of guard where the vigilance hits a low and they attacked. Yet, this was a TTP defeat, not a PAF one. Compare what happened to previous attacks.

If you need more conviction that Pak armed forces have broken the backs of the TTP then I'd like to inform you that the US visits us and tries to learn from us how to perform well in LICs. FYI, Swat valley ops were the biggest urban infantry battle since WWII (and we did much better than the US in Falujah). Next, the more desperate the attacks get the more they signal the last attempts of TTP, here their most probable target were families, not equipment.

Thirdly, this attack was to cause as much damage as possible, not hold something (strategic) or damage something invaluable (like planes, hardware, even tarmac!) but just to kill people. Most of them non-combatants in an attempt to demoralise the nation, just like they did in the APS peshawar attack. Guess what? It back fired. This was to answer against our COAS leading the bombardment against the TTP. It failed to demoralise us and thanks to everyone's vigilance failed.

I hope everyone gets it.

@EVERYONE if you guys need assurance that this is truly so please search Shuja Nawaz's Learn from doing. It'd clear up a lot of what I've said on this topic. <EDIT>

Sir you are a veteran expert .You have several times life experience than me

On topic.Sir how could they manage to sneak in that PAF base without any problem?They were around 13 terrorists .How could they hide these much of heavy arms from the survelliance of ISI?
And they know that they will slaughtered easily if they solely attack the base .So it seems they attacked those innocent people in mosque to vent out frustration.

 

[DV RULES]

1. Since the call to made to claim responsibility for the attack has said to be made from Afghanistan
2. Since Mansoor Omar or Omar Mansoor (whatever is the sequence) is said to be the mastermind of this attack and he is in Afghanistan
3 Their communication has been intercepted and the records has been obtained

So these could be the basis for his statement . As far as sending SSGs to Afghanistan well even in mess the fact is Afghanistan is a sovereign country you cant just send your uniformed personnel to take someone out but yes if we can have a mutual pact

In particular issues......a sovereignty is respected when it is sovereign in true nature..........
Pakistan just have to pass resolution in NA in favour of Pakistan military permitting them launching military covert or overt operation. That's only matter of courage and there will be lesson for next 365 days for sovereign country how make itself sovereign being not to be Puppet of India.

 

[Icarus]

Sir

Taking an analogy of terrorism as a disease - Whatever military/security options we employ are like paracetamol - which abates the symptoms which in this case are overt attacks on civilians and defense targets. Unless a proper diagnosis is made about the root causes of such disease which in this case may be:

1. Poverty - - Terrorism for Money?
2. Unemployment - Lack of options
3. Misguided Ideology - No idea about what is Islam just brainwashed by some Mullahs or people with nefarious intent.
4. Foreign Influence - Afganishtan/India/US
5. Domestic protection - by some extremist mullahs and their collaborators

Pakistani members would be better able to point out the root-causes anyway my point is we have to eliminate their grievances at the core, re-educate them, provide them with alternative careers, bring in social development in worst affected areas.

Ofcourse none of this can be done until the symptoms abate hence military is absolutely necessary to punish and eliminate those who are lost cases but any military action should be supported politically in terms of rehabilitation and increased political attention on the afflicted areas. Otherwise all the sacrifices and gains would be lost and these scums would produce a new generation of scums in this forever war.

This is were we failed in India during Maoists and Kashmir Insurgency - Hope you guys learn from our mistakes. Keep your politicians on tight leash so that resources go where they are most needed.

Regards

Many of these measures are already in effect, however unlike the Maoist Insurgency which has a politico-economic theory at its core, the TTP have a religious ideology that means that it has much greater appeal, social penetration and is also producing more dedicated soldiers. However, Pakistan has had plenty of "trial and error" experiences and each day, the strategy is tweaked just a little bit to make it more effective.

 

[Path-Finder]

Its a 2250km border, most of it mountainous. Even if you ignore the cost and length, the structural challenge alone of it will consign the plan to failure. Lets not forget that Musharraf tried to fence the border during his tenure but the erected sections of the fence were uprooted and sold for scrap faster than they were raised.

How long is the great wall of China? When was that built? It unless I am wrong has been built over various terrains. Not a 100% defense solution but it played a major role in keeping China safe. That was centuries ago I am right to assume with the technological advanced made it can be better built.

What happened in the past is the excess baggage that we no longer need this plan should be thought of again just because in the previous tenure it was not properly executed is no excuse to plan it better NOW.

 

[jaibi]

Actually the corresponding 'attack' that the civilian government or institutions need to do such as offer rehabilitation and civics are lacking the swiftness of the armed response. Once we catch up. It's over for them.

Many of these measures are already in effect, however unlike the Maoist Insurgency which has a politico-economic theory at its core, the TTP have a religious ideology that means that it has much greater appeal, social penetration and is also producing more dedicated soldiers. However, Pakistan has had plenty of "trial and error" experiences and each day, the strategy is tweaked just a little bit to make it more effective.

 

[Spring Onion]

I think you broke the hearts of a number of wannabe jihadists today....

YEH TODAY's "jihiltalaban"

 

[Icarus]

How long is the great wall of China? When was that built? It unless I am wrong has been built over various terrains. Not a 100% defense solution but it played a major role in keeping China safe. That was centuries ago I am right to assume with the technological advanced made it can be better built.

What happened in the past is the excess baggage that we no longer need this plan should be thought of again just because in the previous tenure it was not properly executed is no excuse to plan it better NOW.

My friend, the Great Wall was built during imperial times when a royal decree used to get things done regardless of losses. Fast forward to modern day and how do you propose paying for a 2250km long wall? The labour costs? The costs for providing security and services to the labour force?
And if we manage to make a wall of China 2.0, the enemy are not Mongols armed with bows and arrows who will be at a loss on how to scale a wall. A single bomber will be able to create a breach and the traffic will continue. Will you then propose posting guards at 100 feet from one another to ensure that as soon as a breach has occurred, it is reported and resistance mobilized?

 

[sady]

Inna nillah e wa ina ellaehi rajioon...Shahadat lucky 26.
However we must understand few things,
1.Do we know how much man power is required to man the security cordons with men changing shifts? We Pakistanis do not have limitless resources. There cannot be ten people manning guard rooms to match firepower of 13 men all the time. The outer parameters will be breached, however there should be two layers of parameters atleast specially for Masjids and residential areas. The second role is of QRF. The main safety net.
2 QRF did its job so all in all the system worked, which is a good news . You cannot hope for better in wars like these.
3 Intelligence could have been better, but ISI is very stretched by fighting simultaneously with three-four of worlds best Intelligence agencies.
4 the disease lies in Afghanistan. Pakistan is between a rock and a hard place. We cannot create a precedent for cross border raids because killing TTP leadership is meaningless in the current scenario.There are plenty of mercenaries who will eagerly takeover as next pawns. Baitullah Mehsud, Hakimullah, Umar Khurasaani, Fazalullah are just Aliases. It does not take long to glamorise another name. Pakistan needs to fight the symptoms till it can be strong enough to tackle the disease itself and that is to continue the current course, build CPEC and strong democracy with good governance. These terrorists are now not strong enough to suppress economic growth anymore IA.

 

[Shamain]

1. We cannot bomb a sovereign nation and ground incursions are out of the question too.
2. Subverting an internationally recognized government won't gain us many browny points.
3. The Afghan Taliban and TTP are joined at the hip, you may see two heads but start exploring and eventually you find the link, there's no way they are going to turn on their own brethren and weaken themselves. And even if some of the commanders do turn, there is a new commander every 30-50 square kilometer, how many can we convince to side with us in turn for the keys to Kabul?




1. If you get enough infractions, you get banned automatically, that's what happened I guess.
2. Once again, its 2250km long.

If afghan talibans and ttp dogs are so well connected with each other than why we have provided asylum to afghan talibs' heads? Why dont we kick them out or hand them over to usa. Do we not have them hiding in pakistan? I always thought.

As of long border and difficult terrain ,yes i know abt it , have read abt it several times and the reason we havent been able to fence or guard it. Tho idont know in detail. My comment was out of anger .

And no if afghans can allow attacks like aps on our soil then hell with their sovereignty. And this fresh attack was also directed from there. We dont care abt such sovereignty which has ruined the peace of our state. Saray ghatiya neighbours pakistan ko hee milnay thay.

@menac2society i totally support u in bombing ttp hideouts in afghanistan. But i know no one will make u coas.

 

[nForce]

How long is the great wall of China? When was that built? It unless I am wrong has been built over various terrains. Not a 100% defense solution but it played a major role in keeping China safe. That was centuries ago I am right to assume with the technological advanced made it can be better built.

What happened in the past is the excess baggage that we no longer need this plan should be thought of again just because in the previous tenure it was not properly executed is no excuse to plan it better NOW.

The great wall of China was supposed to protect against horse hordes and arrows.

Can Pakistan afford building a similar fence and the manpower to man it ? You already have a very romantic story going on in your eastern border.

What about Afghan reaction on Durand line ? You will have Afghan reaction even before you will be able to complete 10%.