Tejas far behind competitors, not enough to protect Indian skies: IAF

[faithfulguy]

Alright, so tell me how many new F-16 you are getting? Or J-10Bs? You dont have money for anything better than JF-17. Offense Defense all based on one platform which is short-legged.

Not all of Pakistan's planes are the best in the world. But none of them failed like India.

 

[razgriz19]

HAL tried too many things too quickly. Seriously Tejas reminds me of Beechcraft Starship. That aircraft was too advance and costly for its own good. Tejas is similar in a sense that HAL tried to build a small light weight aircraft with a capability of a medium weight fighter. You can do that if you're a company called Saab with decades of aircraft building experience, but not if you're fairly new to the business.

 

[Dem!god]

HAL tried too many things too quickly. Seriously Tejas reminds me of Beechcraft Starship. That aircraft was too advance and costly for its own good. Tejas is similar in a sense that HAL tried to build a small light weight aircraft with a capability of a medium weight fighter. You can do that if you're a company called Saab with decades of aircraft building experience, but not if you're fairly new to the business.

That may be one of the drawbacks but what was most crucial was that Hal is a govt. company. Had it been a pvt sector enterprises HAL might have succeeded or even excelled but sarkari institution have their own baggage and govt interference. Every incentive is not performance linked here thats one of the many basic problem.

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Not all of Pakistan's planes are the best in the world. But none of them failed like India.

Well, you can only fail if you try to do something... So guess you are right! None of the Pakistani projects failed because they never tried to do anything by their own self! For everything including roads they have one answer. CHINA! Previously it was USA btw.

HAL tried too many things too quickly. Seriously Tejas reminds me of Beechcraft Starship. That aircraft was too advance and costly for its own good. Tejas is similar in a sense that HAL tried to build a small light weight aircraft with a capability of a medium weight fighter. You can do that if you're a company called Saab with decades of aircraft building experience, but not if you're fairly new to the business.

Actually even Saab cann't do it. It will take something like Boeing or Lock-Mart to do it in the desired timelines. In strength training you mostly train to failure, guess HAL trained to failure for 1 billion dollar worth. Still Worth it compared to what Saab spent on Grippen about 14 billion dollar for development. Right now India has most of the infra it needs to develop a 4.5 Gen aircraft in desired timelines with few parts imported.

Who says its short legged its simply getting better and better as time goes on

PAF understands that it takes time to get pilots trained on a jet, it takes time to develop combat doctrines.
It takes time to partake in joint airforce exercises so your jet csn be pitted against a variety of opposition jets

Pakistan knew all this so had a plan in place which it followed

JF17s have been in service for a decade.
Block 3 is just round the corner
100 jets have been built
3 export customers have placed orders

AND MOST IMPORTANT!!!!!
Pakistani pilots have had a decade to get to grips with the plane and push it to its limits, as the plane matures Pakistani pilots are ready and primed


As opposed to the utterly stupid indian policy of trying to make a race horse out of the tejas donkey and giving nothing to your pilots
So when you finally hand the flying turd to your airforce in numbers it will take them anothet decade+ to work out the plane, its limits, combat doctrines and experience flying it against better planes so you can come up with a strategy on how to fly the damn thing

Pakistan isnt perfect but buddy the JF17s are an example of how to build up a fighter jet programme properly when you have many obstacles

The Tejas is an example of how to utterly fcuk up a programme

*Yawn* you are wrong on too many counts.

1. For Pakistan JF-17 was a MUST. Why? Because no other fighter was available for this price point unless you go for refurbished one. IAF? They were simply too spoilt by choices. They won't ride a Tejas if they can get their hands on Rafael.

2. Pakistan has no geographic depth like India, so India can cover most of important targets in Pakistan even with a fighter with combat radius of 400 to 500 while Pakistan will need a much longer range to attack targets in India. Meaning we can do even with current Tejas to escort bombers on Islamabad or Lahore but you cann't target Pune using JF-17. You will have to deploy your precious F-16 and hope that the are not shot down by Indian air defenses. BTW, J10B or C was what you really needed to replace F-16's dependency on USA but somehow it never got purchased.

3. As far as making race horse out of donkey goes, I will give you a better analogy. To train with sword you usually start with a wooden sword or even a stick. So at worst Tejas will turn out to be a wooden stick -- a 1 billion dollar wooden stick-- but thats fine. No one builds a home built fighter program without some hick-ups. This is the basic difference, for PAF JF-17 was a do or die situation. They had to induct what they got -- even if it comes without a air to air refuling probe. For India, what was necessary was to gain expertise in building a fighter from grounds up. In next 40 years india will be flying all of her own fighters while you will still be importing from China or who so ever is your current master.

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

In strength training you mostly train to failure, guess HAL trained to failure for 1 billion dollar worth.

Save training to failure for the last set or two, that allows greater volume overall. And better recovery too.

 

[EndangeredSpecies]

Save training to failure for the last set or two, that allows greater volume overall. And better recovery too.

Oh our first set was fine. It was HF-24 Marut. It worked pretty well in 1971s war. Tejas was indeed a training to failure.

Tejas was Quad-Fly by wire, Own engine, own radar, own composite air frame, heck even own BVR missile. Too many things, indeed it was training to failure.

 

[Sanchez]

Make in India！ Amazing...

 

[Mr.Cringeworth]

be happy and keep quite

we are happy but that does not mean we have to be quiet about it, why is your *** on fire.

 

[Indian Jatt]

i think india should have hired consultants from west in 1990s to make sure they make something thats workable rather than building a purely indigenous platform
remeber, china and west build several types of planes, failed or inducted them in limited numebr and thus have gained alot experience, india cannot do the same, what it should do is bypass this by hiring good people who can make sure india doesnt do these mistakes

range, payload is understandable but life cycle cost is the only thing makes me skeptical, i am not sure how true this report is, but fact that it states tejas is very difficult to maintain is worrisome

current gen fighters main selling point is that they should be easy to maintain

till now i was blaming IAF for tejas fiasco but if its true that its 3x-5X worse in maintenance than 90s era f-16s and gripen than it is a disastrous, as this is a problem of f-5/f-6s/mig 19 and mig 21s era fighters

so what can IAF do, i think instead of just inducting tejas for the sake of it, it should do a technical study to see if this can be fixed, if not its just better to scrap it al together and call for new fighter

nobody is claiming thunder is better in anyway but it is atleast not a maintenance hog PAF has repeatedly said that its very close in maintenance to modern fighter/f-16

I don't know about the reports, but if it's a maintenance nightmare, Tejas will definitely have more crash rates??
It never crashed in it's 15 years of flying and testing, it's been serving in Flying daggers squadron and they feel more secure and safe in Tejas, they used to fly Mig 21's.
India may like to have Sweden in AMCA as it is a fifth gen fighter and many countries will have it's eyes on it.
I appreciate the fact that PAF inducted JF 17 and then completed the work in blocks, it made more sense that the inputs were coming from PAF pilots and not PAF chief designers...
I will post a video I once saw, the pilots we're talking about it's reliability and said that it's very maintenance friendly...

 

[ziaulislam]

I don't know about the reports, but if it's a maintenance nightmare, Tejas will definitely have more crash rates??
It never crashed in it's 15 years of flying and testing, it's been serving in Flying daggers squadron and they feel more secure and safe in Tejas, they used to fly Mig 21's.
India may like to have Sweden in AMCA as it is a fifth gen fighter and many countries will have it's eyes on it.
I appreciate the fact that PAF inducted JF 17 and then completed the work in blocks, it made more sense that the inputs were coming from PAF pilots and not PAF chief designers...
I will post a video I once saw, the pilots we're talking about it's reliability and said that it's very maintenance friendly...

Tejas has NOT been flown enough to know about crash rates...
high maintenance means high maintenance and has nothing to so with pilots or jet/plan safety in short run, it has more to do with how the ground staff feels about it...
older plans were notoriously difficult to maintain with more experience manufacturers have learn to make jets more maintenance friendly...

Every plan is inducted in blocks...
For example typhoon trench 1 had no air to ground capability but later software validation have enabled it now, after 10+ years in tench1 block 5 upgrade got air to ground capabliity...

Thunder from get go had dumb bombs, sd 10 and vwr capabilities but precision strike, anti ship, anti radiation was added later in block 2 and backwards in block 1 when ASELAN pod was brought...
All of these validation requires years and usually added later in every aircraft be it f35 even..

read this article about f-35
why do you think no body knows what to do with trench 1 eurofighters
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/ar...-responds-to-“concurrency-orphan”-report.html

 

[lonelyman]

It is indeed a sad story. Anyway, HAL's tried.

Why I am not surprised, just like ajunk tank, a junk is a junk

Simply put, with indias current industrial capabilities, it just cannot produce a viable fighter(even with 50% critical foreign parts), just like it can not produce a decent rifle.

3 of the 5 planes are licensed productions. The other 2 are have imported critical components but are still stuck in development.

Licensed assembly

 

[faithfulguy]

Why I am not surprised, just like ajunk tank, a junk is a junk

Simply put, with indias current industrial capabilities, it just cannot produce a viable fighter(even with 50% critical foreign parts), just like it can not produce a decent rifle.


Licensed assembly

India can't distinguish between research and development vs manufacturing and production. They assume once r&d has completed there won't be any problem. But they are now facing technical delays not anticipated as they assume that manufacturing is a smooth sailing. Another example of India not thinking things through.

 

[Indian Jatt]

Tejas has NOT been flown enough to know about crash rates...
high maintenance means high maintenance and has nothing to so with pilots or jet/plan safety in short run, it has more to do with how the ground staff feels about it...
older plans were notoriously difficult to maintain with more experience manufacturers have learn to make jets more maintenance friendly...

Every plan is inducted in blocks...
For example typhoon trench 1 had no air to ground capability but later software validation have enabled it now, after 10+ years in tench1 block 5 upgrade got air to ground capabliity...

Thunder from get go had dumb bombs, sd 10 and vwr capabilities but precision strike, anti ship, anti radiation was added later in block 2 and backwards in block 1 when ASELAN pod was brought...
All of these validation requires years and usually added later in every aircraft be it f35 even..

read this article about f-35
why do you think no body knows what to do with trench 1 eurofighters
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/187754/f_35-program-office-responds-to-“concurrency-orphan”-report.html

Tejas has completed more than 1200+ test flights and clocked more than 600+ hours of flight time, i think it is safe to assume that it's a Worthy platform...Ill read the article...

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

Tejas has completed more than 1200+ test flights and clocked more than 600+ hours of flight time, i think it is safe to assume that it's a Worthy platform...Ill read the article...

Worthy enough for the IAF?

 

[GURU DUTT]

Answer is yes...please go to info thread
It has precision weapons BVRs surveillance and excellent advance wvr missles

The upcoming block wil AESA and IRST

HMD as well with off bore missles through ability vs cost of this addition is highly debatable.

no there is no such capability of JF17 Blk 1 or 2 as of now not even under testing if yes plese provide me a link maybe im missing something provide me a proof sir thanks

we are happy but that does not mean we have to be quiet about it, why is your *** on fire.

no rather its yours thats why your all on tejas thread when your nation cant even afford to buy 8 F16s on market price

now the point is tejas is already under testing with israeli ELTA EL 2052 GaN AESA radar and work in full swing on a difent new prototype to reduce wieght by 500-800 Kg and giving it a new landing gear meaning more speed and endurence and lesser drag and with latest GaN AESA based EW+ECM+internal jammers and avionics suite its gonna be as good as any other fighter out there much much better than anything PAF has or wants to have and full production starting in mid 2018 of LCA MK1A (16+18 per annum) so doont worry we have already placed an order for 123 of those worry about your nation as there are 127 jaguars with EL2052 AESA radar & I derby ER & Python5 combo + 125 Bosons +63 upfraded Mig29s + 54 upgraded Mirage2000s+ 272 MKIs backed by 3+2 Phalcon AWACS & 3 DRDO AWACS & 18 Spy SATS ... so tejas is not alone for PAF to worry about