Talks for Su-35, Mi-35 sales to Pakistan are underway: Russian Deputy FM

[$@rJen]

Su-35 will never go to Pakistan... Russians are trolling Indians.

 

[Muhammad Omar]

Every thing will be clear on the Visit of ACM Sohail to Russia.....

There are just talks now... nothing Concrete

 

[Ragnar]

FGFA/PAKFA is a joke. It will be best if China and Russia pool their resources to make a joint Russia-China fighter- capable of challenging US. India should exit this bad investment- don't know whose harebrained idea it was. Sukhois are a different matter, developed when Soviet military spending matched US spending. Russia has been limping since 91 and now it is in a death spiral.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Su-35 will never go to Pakistan... Russians are trolling Indians.

per bhai they need yet another "friend" and since they have no choice they yet again shoot themselfs in foot again just keep watching abhi to aur bhaterre manazir dekhne ko baaki hain

 

[alee92nawaz]

You obviously have no idea on how much we buy from Russia. India has decided not to put all of its eggs in one basket for sure but that does not mean Russia will stop getting sales from India. Russia and India have taken the defence deals one step ahead and looking to be partners or let me just say India wants to be a learning partner, such deals cost even more since some amount of learning and ToT takes place. Stop fooling yourself by talking about 1 paise and 5 paise when you don't get it at all. Ok so what else can Pak buy say after the SU-35 that can effectively replace Indian sales for Russia?

Please don't bring in warm waters and the fabled silk route, while being strategic for Russia too its not strategic enough for Russia to lose India.




Good analysis. If India does decide to sour its relationship with Russia it will be a velvet divorce meaning not one that will stop every deal between the two. Russia too knows it can still milk India for spares and it decides not to, it will further lose dollars which will be a double whammy! it's not as simple as Pakistanis see it here on this forum.

Let's assume Indo-Russian relations spiral downhill. Unlike Pakistan, India has multiple resources to re-instate airplanes of similar caliber. We currently have over or close to 200 SU 30MKI that can easily be reduced to 75 effectively while the rest can be canablized for spares until replacements arrive. Not a very good scenario but enough still while combined with our navy and army to keep any adventurism from Pakistan away.

Lastly, If Russia does so, it will signal to the world what its intentions are and put India in a space where several countries from the west will easily help. Very unlikely for long term friends but India will lose little in terms of its military edge against its only enemy, Pak.

Military aside something that Pakistanis never get is trade and economics. China or Russia do not think like Pakistan. Trade is very essential for the two and India is a huge growing market that Pakistan can never ever replace. Killing relations with India hence is never an option for Russia or China.

If push comes to shove India will decide to buy twice the number of squadrons you wish to at inflated cost just to deny you any advantages, you still think Russia will be interested? Sure, relations between Pak-Russia will continue to rise but Russia trying to replace India with Pakistan is sadly only a Pakistani dream.

Bro pak doesn't buy stuff in that way...
We buy inly for our minimum needs..
And u will use other mki fors spares ?
Do u knw that only 60% mki can fly at a time coxof different problems...n btw iaf will do same to migs mig 21 mig 27, 29 etc ? 70 mki dont pose any danger to pak in case of war..n I wasnt talking about war scenario I m just saying that india cant run from russia

 

[Donatello]

Without going into actual purchase issues, let me point out a problem with that line of thinking. If the defence budget is $8 billion, it would probably leave about $ 2-3 billion available for capital purchase, the rest having gone for expenses. That will then have to be divided by the three forces, the PA getting the largest portion. The actual amount available for the Air Force would be a small portion of that & that would be for all purchases, not just one. More likely that the government would have to add a separate component in the budget to manage such purchases.

Shut up fool.

Pakistan's defense budget is only for annual salaries, maintenance etc. All capital purchases are approved by MoD and MoF from separate funds, which would be a combination of forex reserves for up front partial payment and/or Eximp bank of the respective country, or it could Pakistan offering Russia something in return. Just like Air India went with the US EXIMP for financing it's purchase of 777/737 aircraft from Boeing.....which if paid in full, would be not affordable for a loss making entity like Air India.

There is absolutely no way that Russia is simply willing to offer SU35 to Pakistan just out of no where, unless Russia gains strategic something which has a value far greater than upsetting India and few billion USD worth of planes. That part is what i am interested in knowing, what is Pakistan giving up. Oil/Gas pipeline routes? But to where? Port rights for Russian Navy since Putin wants full involvement in Syria and middle east? Probably. Pissing off Americans in the process and forcing them to work with Russia.......sure.

 

[$@rJen]

per bhai they need yet another "friend" and since they have no choice they yet again shoot themselfs in foot again just keep watching abhi to aur bhaterre manazir dekhne ko baaki hain

Ya.... The Chinese are also behind this Making Russians to sell weapons to Pakistan.. But we dind't mind when they are selling Mi's to pakistan which not a real threat... But Su-35 does.. If they reallying going to sell to Palistanis the reply from India will be so different which Russians Can't afford now.. we know its not really going to happen that's why even after Russians openly saying about the talks with Pakistan India didn't say anything against the deal.... The russians are looking for the attention.. well we'll see this deal's blockade in December when Modi goes to Russia.. and most probably the next gen Sub contracts will end up witht the russians.... and another Pakistanis will feel the pain of maintenance with Mi

 

[Donatello]

so they will dump India and go with bankrupt Pakistan.....what a logic

No, they will milk India and go with a golden opportunity called Pakistan.

 

[Maarkhoor]

This is an important point and something that the PAF leadership would have given ample thought to.

yes my point is little deeper then that PAF knows it but they are Russian and Pakistani just playing for their own reasons
1- Russia want to hurt India and bring his enraged girl friend to his bed again.
2- Pakistan irritating old uncle Sam that if you are not going to provide what we are asking then we have other sources.
at the end India would buy more Russian jets and Pakistan would hand on more F-16 and future assurance of F-35

 

[abdulbarijan]

question is what will russia do

do you realli think it will give away prospects of selling india 100+ FGFA/PAKFA to sell pakistan couple of squads od su-35

tell me if you are a factory owner and you have a good old coustmer who is buying most of your produce will you upset buisness terms with him just because his competitor( who always bought its stuff from your compititor ) wants to buy some stuff from you and that too in 1/10 the ammount of merchandise which your old coustmer has already made deal with you and is in talks to do a simmilar deal for your next project

if im in your shoes i will onli go for the smaller coustmer when he is ready to dish owt a impressive premium for my goods and that too in cash + on my terms /.... question is are you in a position to make such a deal

im not trolling or making a flame bate simple buisness talk nothing personal ... OK

The problem with this analogy is that its not a simple business we're talking about ... It's an owner with a collection of different businesses ... Lets say Russia is Business A ... Now this good old/loyal customer A (India) ---- when he was poor, got all the stuff from this business .. Now that he is getting a bit wealthy .... he is now exploring his options going to a businesses which happens to be the direct rival and the one that orchestrated the fall of "business A" a few decades ago .. what's more ... this loyal customer instead of showing loyalty went with another option when it came to his biggest deal of products in his history of purchases ... this loyal customer is now also considering lowering the numbers of another done deal ....

In comes Customer B (pakistan) which can only buy a certain number of products.. lets go by your numbers .. just 1/10th of the Loyal Customer A ... but this "Customer B" offers a pathway to the business , in essence giving an opportunity to access different markets alot more cheaply, to help other businesses of the "Business A" ... and even though this customer was not preferred at first ... but is friend to a key ally ...

Hence the SU-35 deal if ( and there is a big IF) ... signed ... will only be a small link in a bigger chain of cooperation between Pakistan and Russia ... while India continues to explore different options in the west ... and is treated like another "big customer" and not as the previous "all weather friend" like it used to be ..

 

[Donatello]

Not sure if the price figures are correct since elsewhere i read Rafale to be in the region of 80 million.
In any case, in the past PAF had a look at both the Eurofighter Typhoon and the Rafale.
The then PAF airchief even had test flown a Typhoon but nicely declined it. Perhaps it never met or suited PAF's doctrine.

Sir i am not sure if Su35 per unit, should cost more than 60-80 million USD. We know that Russian hardware is comparatively cheaper than western products.

Remember the India was bankrupt and begging IMF in 1991......they went and bought M2K and Mig29....their Migs were considerably cheaper.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

This deal is a possibility.

If YES , then it will be a game changer for PAF, as the jet and its variants are the best available in world today and Pakistan can neutralize any threat from Indian side with this formidable fighter.

If NO, then all the variants are old design Russian junk, with bad reputation, bad costs and better options are available from other countries like J-11 and JF-17 can easily match Su-30 variants.

Do you have tears in your eyes posting that ?

Poor sparkie and his douchebagery.

 

[GURU DUTT]

The problem with this analogy is that its not a simple business we're talking about ... It's an owner with a collection of different businesses ... Lets say Russia is Business A ... Now this good old/loyal customer A (India) ---- when he was poor, got all the stuff from this business .. Now that he is getting a bit wealthy .... he is now exploring his options going to a businesses which happens to be the direct rival and the one that orchestrated the fall of "business A" a few decades ago .. what's more ... this loyal customer instead of showing loyalty went with another option when it came to his biggest deal of products in his history of purchases ... this loyal customer is now also considering lowering the numbers of another done deal ....

In comes Customer B (pakistan) which can only buy a certain number of products.. lets go by your numbers .. just 1/10th of the Loyal Customer A ... but this "Customer B" offers a pathway to the business , in essence giving an opportunity to access different markets alot more cheaply, to help other businesses of the "Business A" ... and even though this customer was not preferred at first ... but is friend to a key ally ...

Hence the SU-35 deal if ( and there is a big IF) ... signed ... will only be a small link in a bigger chain of cooperation between Pakistan and Russia ... while India continues to explore different options in the west ... and is treated like another "big customer" and not as the previous "all weather friend" like it used to be ..

in short there is a big IF ..... cheers mate

 

[$@rJen]

No, they will milk India and go with a golden opportunity called Pakistan.

Yes Yes.... 2-3 billion is golden opportunity..

 

[Blue Marlin]

more info on the su-35 realised from Janes

The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has discussed buying Su-35 'Flanker-E' fighter aircraft from Russia in potentially the largest defence deal between the two countries, but a final decision is yet to be made, a senior Pakistani government official has confirmed to IHS Jane's .

The official was responding to Russian media reports that Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov had said talks were underway for an unspecified number of Su-35s, which follow a recent agreement to provide Mi-35M 'Hind E' attack helicopters to Islamabad.

While the official said "it's too early to say if a deal will conclude and the terms", the fact that discussions have taken place shows Russia's willingness to sell advanced hardware with Pakistan despite Moscow's longstanding ties with India.

The official said Pakistan's interest in the Su-35 was driven by the PAF's need for a twin-engine fighter "that can fly for a longer range than the JF-17 and penetrate more deeply into the enemy's territory". The PAF flies a mixed fleet of Lockheed Martin F-16s, Dassault Mirage-5s, Chinese-manufactured F-7s, and the JF-17 Thunder, which is jointly produced by China and Pakistan.

In November 2014 a senior Pakistani official told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was in discussions with China to buy 30 to 40 FC-31s - the export version of China's J-31 fifth-generation platform. At the time, the official told IHS Jane's that Pakistan was interested in the platform partly because it was fitted with two RD-93 Russian Klimov engines, which also powers the JF-17. PAF officials have also told IHS Jane's in the past that they have considered the purchase of up to 40 Chengdu J-10 fighters.

Pakistani official confirms Su-35 talks - IHS Jane's 360