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Taliban Military Chief Mullah Baradar captured by Pakistan

Wow, if CIA is that good to have found BM on its own, then they should have no problems in finding OBL, AL Zahwiri, Mullah Omar and the Afghan Taliban leadership. SO why don't they ??

Why couldn't they do that in 9 years time, if they are so damn good ???

ISI is making these strikes so successful, otherwise, the CIA led strikes led to more collateral damage compared to eliminating the number of terrorists.

If they were on your territory and the ISI was so good why take CIA help ?

So you are one of the closet supporters of drone strikes on your territory but oppose it on threads here ?
 
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Even if we accept your face saving explanation for a moment it still does not explain why the GOP signed a peace pact with them and handed over a part of your territory to them to govern ?

My point is that your ISI advised your govt. wrongly that TTP was manageable and they got it wrong. TTP like most deluded gangs thought they could take on the PA and lost.
It is just an explanation, if my face is saved, then what I can do? :D

Zardari issued a Presidential order for that. The army was against it from the beginning, but the truth is that because of Musharraf the army was seen as a senseless warmonger always preferring tough action over diplomacy. Zardari's call was not due to any advice from the ISI (if you have any evidence to prove that otherwise, please present it), on the contrary, he was capitalizing on the political advantage of ending the hostilities on the advice of ANP - his political allies.

Hence the very basis of your "point" is wrong.

However once upon a time ISI and BM and Co. were good friends.

Regards

Either Taliban days or Soviet war days, then too I doubt BM's name was on anybody's radar. BM rose to prominence when after Tora Bora he used the Mehsud tribes influence to grant sanctuary to the escaping Taliban. There was no ISI involved in that.

You can't mix stories and issues for the sake of simplicity.
 
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TO S-2 well I wanted to write something in return but I wont......................................
I just found out that there was a personal family tragedy and my sister had a miss carrige.


You guys take care have fun bashing all that you can, bye.
 
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"I just found out that there was a personal family tragedy and my sister had a miss carrige."

For that I am truly sorry. Your sister and you both have my deepest sympathies. Debating and arguing is one thing. Life and death an entirely different and more important matter.

God speed to you and her.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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Always Neutral,

I'd concur with Asim on his perceptions of both SWAT and FATA. Mehsud had prominence within FATA from a number of trips to Afghanistan between 1994-2001 but he hadn't emerged until later. Nek Mohammad was the local charismatic that really mobilized the tribal insurgency in my view.

Thanks.:usflag:
 
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hmm.. so why ISI capture Talib leader? So CIA can't take him to US, the same way US is attacking on top brass of TTP.
 
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Even if we accept your face saving explanation for a moment it still does not explain why the GOP signed a peace pact with them and handed over a part of your territory to them to govern ?

My point is that your ISI advised your govt. wrongly that TTP was manageable and they got it wrong. TTP like most deluded gangs thought they could take on the PA and lost.

However once upon a time ISI and BM and Co. were good friends.

Regards

Actually the peace deal was with TNSM under guarantee of surrender of TTP in Malakand, it cannot be called ill advised if the ISI was banking on the hawkish behavior of TTP to pay no heed to the surrender part and drag its feet.
The peace deal did not hand over territory to the TTP.
No one here can claim to know the complete truth so i would suggest that all stop speculating so as to call it intelligence failure.
There is a very strong possibility that government was expecting TTP to misbehave and used this to convince the people of the duplicity of TTP.
The SSG recon force members were actively gathering intel on TTP positions and numbers during this period so it was expected move of TTP.

Once upon a time the Mujahideen (spiritual ancestors of Taliban) were the blue eyed boys of the west...things change, roll with it...
However also give due weightage to the fact that Pakistan had hosted Millions of Afghans and it was not possible to sever all ties with former Mujahideen turned Taliban, things do not happen overnight and there will be a time when former ties of Pakistan and even US will help in bringing many Taliban to the talking table.

Media attributes many statements to ISI but ISPR is the official channel through which Army indicates its official posture, we should not rely too much on Taliban apologists like Hamid Mir who was not even willing to condemn Sufi Muhammad for going back on his word in Swat...

I have always segregated Taliban on basis of Afghan Taliban and Pakistan TTP because they had different background and motivation whatever similarity they share in their projected ideology, things are not that simple and all parties need to understand that.
In the past I have taken pains to explain how Afghan Taliban were successful initially in Afghanistan due to the poor performance of previous regime, it was not their weapons or alleged help of ISI but the local support which would have been supportive of any party which could unify the land and end the perpetual civil war.
It is something we need to understand so as to ensure that extremism does not take root due to desperation, deprivation and lawlessness.

There is no shame in admitting that initially Taliban did not start out as what they have become after their marriage with Al Qaeda, certainly their more extremist steps did not come to light till they had become the most powerful entity in Afghanistan.
However there is equally no shame in admitting that their retarded interpretation of Shariah and draconian laws quickly evaporated all the good they achieved via unification of Afghanistan.

This is all in the past and needs to be rememberd, however it is also obvious that we cannot allow extremism and terrorism to take root no matter what cause is associated with them, therefore anyone who is not willing to let go of such actions has to be dealt with...

I would not like to derail this thread any further so my advice to the more serious fellow members is to focus on this arrest and what it means in long term for Pakistan, Afghanistan and USA.

Good to know that ISI is taking solid action in the interest of Pakistan.
 
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I am not sure what you are crossing swords over ?

Most of your statements indirectly or directly support my contentions that are

1. Gen Pasha's statement shows that he considered TTP an asset once upon a time! He go it VERY WRONG.

2. GOP preferred handing the hydra BM its territory in order to curry favor and strategic depth! They got it very wrong.

3. The TOP leadership of the Good Taliban has made deep inroads in Pakistan civil society which till date you have all denied which was exposed by Mullah Brothers arrest! Hence atleast most here got it wrong.

4. Good Taliban will never attack PA? The jury is out on this after Mullah Brothers arrest.

Regards

1. If you can remember somehow which i doubt, the statement of declaring BM or TTP patriotic was not by Gen Pasha, i have seen many links to that interview, non says so. Here below is the link declaring the BM patriotic thing by some unknown officer, Gen pasha has nothing to do with it.

Army official calls Baitullah Mehsud, Fazlullah ‘patriots’

Plz provide the link of the der spiegel saying Gen Pasha termed them so.

We were gonna be at war in those days with India, so it was necessary to do something to counter this threat if Army had to be redeployed on the eastern borders.

2. Handing over territory to BM was no strategic depth move, as there is no Afghan border with the territory BM & TTP controlled. As there was internal pressure at that time against going to war, thus the pact was signed, to give it one last chance, as Gen Kiyani repeatedly said that for success in those areas, the public support is necessary, which we did not had at that time. Once, we got it, we went in and retaken that area. There was nothing strategic depth concept in that, plz get your idea about strategic depth cleared up.

3. There is no official confirmation that he got captured in Karachi, or if even he has been captured. There have been many instances, when the unofficial stories printed in NYT have proved to be false. It may be another trick by the Americans by using the name of Karachi, or trying to justify their expansion in Karachi. So once an official version comes up, then plz talk about this inroad theory.

4. Good Taliban will only attack when messed with, past has shown that and so have they cleared it up on numerous occasions.
 
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Always Neutral,

I'd concur with Asim on his perceptions of both SWAT and FATA. Mehsud had prominence within FATA from a number of trips to Afghanistan between 1994-2001 but he hadn't emerged until later. Nek Mohammad was the local charismatic that really mobilized the tribal insurgency in my view.

Thanks.:usflag:

I too agree with you and AA that BM was never on the radar till 2004 and till 2008 he was on the good list of ISI or atleast considered manageable but that does not mean ISI ever considered him a RAW asset. This figment of imagination was concieved the day he openly challenged the writ of the ISI and thru that the GOP.

I cannot agree with AA however that ISI and PA had no say in the peace treaty between GOP and BM rep.

We saw how fast the ISI scuttled the proposal which wanted to bring them under civillian control.

Regards
 
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There is no proof that PA or ISI lead to BM and HM's death. The only ABSOLUTE proof is that a CIA drone took him out.

The only other proof is that the pact was signed with the representative of BM and he broke it.

The rest of most posts here including AA and TK are feel good posts without substance.

Regards
As opposed to your "feel bad" posts? Your accusations of us having "agendas" with our posts are more or less a reflection of your own agendas? Its sort of like, its not enough that Pakistan has arrested and captured such a big player, now you need the "feel bad" posts to crib on why we didn't do it before?

Anyway, it is also the absolute truth that the drone attacks are occurring with our approval. Moreover, BM's kill was claimed by Pakistanis and about HM who was shot in Shaktoi, there's circumstantial evidence that the region was pointed out by Pakistan as well - however since HM was involved in the CIA base attack it is equally possible he was hunted down by the Americans.

DAWN.COM | National | Surge in drone strikes after attack on CIA base

“Honestly, we don’t think the Americans would have targeted our bad guys had there been no link between the TTP and the Al-Qaeda. It’s not that the Americans have started to love us more, it is just that the Americans have started to hate the TTP more”, a security official remarked.

“And this change of heart has come after the TTP accepted responsibility for the Khost attack”, the official remarked.

Who do you think the Americans would come to when they want to kill the guys we've been pestering them to kill. It's circumstantial but better than the "Patriot" quote for which no quote exists even after much googling.
 
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finally some good news , now i hope both authorities can put this capture to good use for them selves and there progress in wot .
 
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Well since you are a military man you maybe aware that Gen. Pasha speaks fluent German better than you or me so getting it may take sometime.

Regards

I do believe an English script must have been published too.

Becoz i have read atleast 8 articles, 3 among them US linked, none says he said the patriotic thing.
 
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I too agree with you and AA that BM was never on the radar till 2004 and till 2008 he was on the good list of ISI or atleast considered manageable but that does not mean ISI ever considered him a RAW asset. This figment of imagination was concieved the day he openly challenged the writ of the ISI and thru that the GOP.

I cannot agree with AA however that ISI and PA had no say in the peace treaty between GOP and BM rep.

We saw how fast the ISI scuttled the proposal which wanted to bring them under civillian control.

Regards
You need to follow local politics to understand there. There's a constant battle of power between the Army and the Government. This time around, the army under Kayani is the good guy, who hasn't superseded its mandate.

The ISI is already under civilian control - it reports the Prime Minister. Zardari's move was to change it to bring it under the Interior Ministry. The difference being that the PM's moves would normally require parliamentary approvals, under the interior ministry it will be severely cut down - something like the FIA and the FIA does not require parliamentary approvals for its actions its a policing force.

The tussle is ongoing, the same thing happened with the Kerry Lugar Bill, the army opposed it but Zardari powered his way through, he has the constitutional power to do so.

Don't overplay Pakistan army's capabilities, under Kayani he has remained subservient to the President even though he probably resents it.
 
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Hey Asim and Taimi,
What is happening to the post ranking mechanism???
 
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