Taliban Leader Maulvi Kabir Captured

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

I love your hopeless attempt at using fig leaves to cover GOP's nake back side. Accept it that your HM is clueless and out of the CIA loop.

There are some news which is only made public when the Government feels it as feasible..! Happens in every Part of the globe ..!

 

[Always Neutral]

There are some news which is only made public when the Government feels it as feasible..! Happens in every Part of the globe ..!

ha ha the Govt keeps quiet when NY times tells the whole world the same.

BTW HM does not till date have a clue till ISPR confirmed it.

PS: I was there in Zardari's office when your HM called to complain.

 

[Gazzi]

There are some news which is only made public when the Government feels it as feasible..! Happens in every Part of the globe ..!

Exactly, especially bearing in mind the sensitivities involved in Pakistan aswell as the current atmosphere in Karachi......silence was the best move

 

[Always Neutral]

always neutral maybe flying two union jacks but he baths every day with a saffron and kisses kaali every day

If she looks like Heather Graham why not? That still doesnot explain why CIA drones are needed to kill pakistani citizens in pakistan.

Regards

 

[Thomas]

Yes thats why they use their drones as they wish. Delusions at the best.

Actually we don't use the drones as we wish. But with the joint cooperation of the ISI. Regardless of past difficulties the U.S. and Pakistan are partners in rooting out the scourge of the Taliban.

 

[S-2]

"Actually we don't use the drones as we wish."

We do where we've the intelligence and means to independantly prosecute the target.

"But with the joint cooperation of the ISI."

Army and ISI are above reproach, particularly when their forces are engaged in war. Therefore they perpetuate a false message. It suits the GoP and P.A. to deny their engagement in such. It's a prime reason that our perception among the rank and file of the Pakistanis, including many of their troops, suffer.

1.) The Pakistani government refuses to accept responsibility for their involvement unless the kill constitutes a coup of note. Then they'll carefully trumpet their involvement in such a notable exception by highlighting the target's critical importance in order to reap the residual benefits from such.

2.) Because of this contrived dissemblance, the ISPR and GoP avoids needing to educate their public on the importance of our shared relationship nor face the resulting questions from that and the presence of these miscreant elements and others further east. This allows Pakistan to continue posturing to their internal and global Islamic audience as a staunchly anti-American entity facing unreasoned U.S. pressure to their sovereignty.

Having their cake and eating it too in short.

Many in Pakistan see through this embarassing duplicity except the most dull. Most that do see the truth play along to bask in the feigned glow of callow self-righteousness. Those who speak out against such dissemblance are assaulted as American fellow-travellers and puppets.

Don't you know the emperor wears no clothes but few have the courage to acknowledge such?

Thanks.

 

[fatman17]

Boast about it when your PAF or PA takes out a HM or BM on their own not when the CIA does it in Pakistan. After all TTP has no weapon to bring down a F 16 yet?

so you think CIA is doing it ALL by itself !!!

 

[Always Neutral]

Actually we don't use the drones as we wish. But with the joint cooperation of the ISI. Regardless of past difficulties the U.S. and Pakistan are partners in rooting out the scourge of the Taliban.

I think S2 has very comprehensively replied to your post but since you are a military professional, care to enlighten me on the following so i don't remain a 'doubting Thomas' any longer?

1. Why do they need a drone to take out VERY HIGH value targets like HM and BM, when ISI has pin pointed their location which is in Pakistan itself? A F 16 could do it as efficiently or a swoop by the SSG could also do it. After all you are operating in your own country?

2. If ISI is on the ground, why did it take so many weeks to even confirm that he is dead or where he was buried? Its the US press which feed out the info first and then the Pak press? Mind you this happened in Pakistan not some foreign country.

3. The same people who are thanking you for the post are usually the ones who troll and state that PAF has the capabilities to take out the drones and that US kills innocent people with drone strikes? I don't see them beating their chests on those thread stating that ISI gave that Intell?

Regards

 

[Always Neutral]

so you think CIA is doing it ALL by itself !!!

For the VERY HIGH VALUE targets like BM and HM yes and most probably thru electronic intercepts. For low value targets they may take Intel from many sources including ex talibani's on their pay rolls or the ISI.

Regards

 

[Always Neutral]

Actually we don't use the drones as we wish. But with the joint cooperation of the ISI. Regardless of past difficulties the U.S. and Pakistan are partners in rooting out the scourge of the Taliban.

Well I prefer believing Gen M as he has stated " i told US even if you want to carry out drone strikes on your own please do it after painting a PAF symbol on the drone but they did not agree"

I think the statement sums it all.

Regards

 

[S-2]

Let me clear on this-Thomas P.M.ed me reference my comment and questioned my assertion based upon an Ignatius column in WAPO that I'd posted here some time ago-Feb. 4, 2010 was the article's date.

In it, Ignatius highlighted that the C.I.A. had been granted a four grid-coordinate kill-zone in which to operate. A box if you will. My understanding from somebody I know involved in targeting indicates that we can and do independantly develop intel and have the authority to prosecute those targets inside that kill zone without prior clearance whenever that occurs. This is to expedite the target in a potentially time-sensitive and perishable scenario.

We've no requirement to seek prior authorization within those geographical constraints. It is, as indicated by Ignatius, a very liberal-sized area.

Hope that helps.

Always Neutral's thoughts about the ability of the PAF to prosecute HVTs using fast movers and PGMs is a valid one but something in which I've no expertise whatsoever. It would likely require a day-night capability coupled with the appropriate munitions.

Beyond that I'd rather not speculate on an all-access forum.

Thanks.

 

[Slides]

Simple, you need an armed platform that can operate with 20 hrs endurance for relatively cheap with day/night capability to do what the US is doing. Pakistan lacks this capability at the moment.

There are many in Pakistan who on principal (and other reasons) disagree with the drone strikes, thus any government that openly acknowledges the "deal" will not last too long.

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

There are many in Pakistan who on principal (and other reasons) disagree with the drone strikes, thus any government that openly acknowledges the "deal" will not last too long.

The anti american sentiment is so high , that no gov would be willingly accepting its role in the drone attacks , plus the religious fanatics and some liberal opposition would use this argument to pressurise gov to take a stance , which might create problems for them , not to mention the cost they will pay interms of dwindling public support ..!.

Plus the only option for the PA to get those terrorists is the ground ops , which costs both in terms of casualties ,money and time .

 

[All-Green]

"Actually we don't use the drones as we wish."

We do where we've the intelligence and means to independantly prosecute the target.

"But with the joint cooperation of the ISI."

Army and ISI are above reproach, particularly when their forces are engaged in war. Therefore they perpetuate a false message. It suits the GoP and P.A. to deny their engagement in such. It's a prime reason that our perception among the rank and file of the Pakistanis, including many of their troops, suffer.

1.) The Pakistani government refuses to accept responsibility for their involvement unless the kill constitutes a coup of note. Then they'll carefully trumpet their involvement in such a notable exception by highlighting the target's critical importance in order to reap the residual benefits from such.

2.) Because of this contrived dissemblance, the ISPR and GoP avoids needing to educate their public on the importance of our shared relationship nor face the resulting questions from that and the presence of these miscreant elements and others further east. This allows Pakistan to continue posturing to their internal and global Islamic audience as a staunchly anti-American entity facing unreasoned U.S. pressure to their sovereignty.

Having their cake and eating it too in short.

Many in Pakistan see through this embarassing duplicity except the most dull. Most that do see the truth play along to bask in the feigned glow of callow self-righteousness. Those who speak out against such dissemblance are assaulted as American fellow-travellers and puppets.

Don't you know the emperor wears no clothes but few have the courage to acknowledge such?

Thanks.

I believe that Musharraf did not think it through and since he had minimal political powerbase and no constitutional legitimacy, he could not come out in the open and decided it best to brush it under the carpet and keep it hushed up.
There was no clarity in what sort of arrangement it was but there seems to be an arrangment of sorts.

I think it is the biggest political puzzle for our leadership, how to manage the drone strikes and justify it without contradicting themselves.
Musharraf's opponents harped on the drones as a key failing of his government, to inherit such bad baggage is not at all a fact that most can digest.
I do not want to be in their shoes since it is an almost unprecedented political feat that is required of them given the complexity of the situation and sentiments prevalent.
It is indeed not something they can easily do at a time when they are projecting the message that PA is fighting for national sovereignty, which it is indeed fighting for and with tremendous zeal.

The presence of PA due to Rah e Nijat would have tremendously improved the information sharing in FATA.
There have been ISI operatives that have perished in these areas due to counter intelligence by terrorists, but now with regular Pakistan Army formations denying space and SSG actively doing recon missions/directing fire, the terrorists are on the back foot due to unprecedented amount of information being gathered on their hideouts, routes, strongholds etc.
This will ofcourse lead to much better visibility on the terrorists.

The only question remains, are all the drone strikes carried out through the agreed setup be it a Joint command or shared intel structure?
If not then that would be contributing to a difference of opinion which has not been resolved and is taking time.

There is no doubt that in the current arrangement the drone strikes are not seen in any positive light collectively on a public level due to the obvious infringement of national sovereignty.
With continued PA offensive the need for such strikes would come down and maybe that is what GOP is waiting for.

 

[All-Green]

I think S2 has very comprehensively replied to your post but since you are a military professional, care to enlighten me on the following so i don't remain a 'doubting Thomas' any longer?

1. Why do they need a drone to take out VERY HIGH value targets like HM and BM, when ISI has pin pointed their location which is in Pakistan itself? A F 16 could do it as efficiently or a swoop by the SSG could also do it. After all you are operating in your own country?

2. If ISI is on the ground, why did it take so many weeks to even confirm that he is dead or where he was buried? Its the US press which feed out the info first and then the Pak press? Mind you this happened in Pakistan not some foreign country.

3. The same people who are thanking you for the post are usually the ones who troll and state that PAF has the capabilities to take out the drones and that US kills innocent people with drone strikes? I don't see them beating their chests on those thread stating that ISI gave that Intell?

Regards

The ISI is not dug in on ground or parading infront of TTP in uniform. It is conducting covert ops and this means that it cannot go in immediately and confirm the kills since if it had such numbers it would do the killing itself, covert OPs are meant to be done without thousands of troops since there is no guarantee of information being authentic and such numbers not only involve heavy cost to mobilize but also are a sure shot way of forewarning the target.
The ISI would and is operating through field agents and many informants; it verifies the information through its field teams via different sources.
It takes time to confirm the kills and is very dangerous if the claim is proven to be incorrect since it gives confidence to the terrorists, on the other hand doubt only weakens their ranks.

In using PAF for such covert activity there is every chance that by the time an F-16 is scrambled, the target is either gone or further checks revealed that target is not authentic.
A wasted sortie involving tremendous cost and spares and reducing the life of the frontline fighter of a cash starved and understrength airforce which needs to be ready for war against conventional threats as well ... HUGE ones!!!
All the while when genuine confirmed targets exist even in FATA and are being targeted in meaningful day and night sorties by the best of PAF in support of Army.

Only recently PA has been deployed to deny space to the TTP in FATA and so we can expect SSG and other fire control teams to direct laser guided munitions as part of regular operations against known and verified targets behind enemy lines, these however are more military threats like strongholds, bunkers, weapons caches and not a small house where some TTP leaders is being suspected to have reached at night and is expected to grace the audience with his visage in a suitable location; for execution and initiation of a drone strike upon confirmation.
Such operations call for different method and different tools.

When targetting such individuals through informants we cannot keep our strike assets in air 24/7 and usually the time window for such strikes is very limited so it also is not worth it to launch hundreds of F-16 sorties for and gain only a few kills.

Drone is a sophisticated yet cheap alternative to solve all the problems which cannot be solved by using your frontline aircraft in what can best be described as chasing ghosts through FATA.