Tahir ul Qadri demolished by Chief Justice at the Supreme Court Day 1

[ice_man]

Do we have a crystal ball to see who they will align themselves with? It's a sweeping statement to say all dual nationality holders are bad - If it was such a security issue why allow it in the first place and give citizens to hold more than one nationality. Also this notion that once another nationality is acquired the said person ceases to be a citizen of Pakistan is absurd. TUQ was born in Pakistan - Jhang - He set up wellfair projects here- more than what most Pakistani's can claim - Again will all that be wiped away - Sorry I don't follow your logic at all - More damage / ghaddari has been done by Pakistani nationals than dual nationals - Predicting/gauging how patriotic one is a ridiculous endevour.

then why get a dual nationality in the first place? if he is "pakistani"???

 

[Chrome9]

then why get a dual nationality in the first place? if he is "pakistani"???

Yaar, I'm not qadri's personal lawyer - I don't even like the guy - but my question to you is, do you think all Pakistani's who acquire dual nationality cease to be Pakistani's and the love of Pakistan some how vanishes from their hearts - there are many reasons why people acquire dual nationality but in my experience most would of never done it, If everything was ok at "home"

 

[ice_man]

Yaar, I'm not qadri's personal lawyer - I don't even like the guy - but my question to you is, do you think all Pakistani's who acquire dual nationality cease to be Pakistani's and the love of Pakistan some how vanishes from their hearts - there are many reasons why people acquire dual nationality but in my experience most would of never done it, If everything was ok at "home"

you are defending qadri whole heartedly hence ofcourse i presume you have a point that you wish to make.

as for people getting another nationality well if "things are not good back home" logic is to go by then if you leave your home in time of need then i guess you NEED TO BE DISOWNED don't you???

everytime you have a fight in your house and you leave is not how anything will be solved would it?


the MINUTE YOU HAVE A PLAN B(i.e another nationality)! YOU HAVE ALREADY TAKEN AN OATH to protect your new "home" along with leaving your old home. the thing is ONLY A PAKISTANI guy has NO PLAN B and would have no choice but to stick with the situation and work on improving it. but a dual national will jump ship at the first sight of trouble!


so i believe Qadri boy has to make his allegence known he can't think of sailing in both boats!

 

[Chrome9]

you are defending qadri whole heartedly hence ofcourse i presume you have a point that you wish to make.

as for people getting another nationality well if "things are not good back home" logic is to go by then if you leave your home in time of need then i guess you NEED TO BE DISOWNED don't you???

everytime you have a fight in your house and you leave is not how anything will be solved would it?


the MINUTE YOU HAVE A PLAN B(i.e another nationality)! YOU HAVE ALREADY TAKEN AN OATH to protect your new "home" along with leaving your old home. the thing is ONLY A PAKISTANI guy has NO PLAN B and would have no choice but to stick with the situation and work on improving it. but a dual national will jump ship at the first sight of trouble!


so i believe Qadri boy has to make his allegence known he can't think of sailing in both boats!

If you spend some time trying to analyse and comprehend what I have written from the start you will very quickly understand that I am not "wholeheartedly supporting Quadri" My personal position is very similar to that of the official PTI stance that yes, ECP has been incompetent in the past in holding elections and every government has manipulated it for its own gain - Moreover - today the same is happening with Zardari at the helm. However, changing the composition of the ECP at the whim of one particular party/person should not be entertained as it is unconstitutional.

The point that I am trying to argue is much more fundamental than this side show - CJP has overstepped his authority and come across as arrogant and making a show of something that need not be. All his actions have judicial activism written over it and he seems to be more worried about cementing his place in the history books than actually delivering justice and jurisprudence on key constitutional topics.

As for your simple analogy about having fights at home - well the situation is far more complex - All the political leaders have done a runner abroad and none of them had dual nationalities - when Quadri left he was a Pakistani national - When Nawaz shair clan left they were Pakistani nationals, when the bhutto clan left they were Pakistani nationals, when Altaf left he was a Pakistani national - same with Musharraf - Same with bugti - when the going gets tough for Asfanyar he runs of to Dubai - Imran Khan spent most of his working life abroad - spending almost 15 years in county cricket and receiving higher education there.

Point being made there has been this alarming trend in Pakistan to use Dual nationality issue as a legal/moral weapon that takes away credibility of the argument that shouldn't be the case - we as Pakistani's need to be bigger than this.

 

[Awesome]

^^ This is exactly TuQ has pointed out that judiciary is protecting the foreign stooges in our assemblies and buerocracy by over looking the constitutional obligations.

Iftikhar Choor and his cronies are full exposed.

Yeah when he was kicking the PPP PM out, where was this protection to the 'foreign stooges' then. Law is blind.

About whether or not Qadri has rights to interfere in politics is up for judicial debate and they will decide on this soon enough. But from a legal point of view, the interpret the constitution the only authority that there is, is the Supreme Court. If Supreme Court interprets day as night, then its night, no matter how obvious it may be written that its day.

Actually I still don't know what is the point of making the ECP void ab initio. One I agree process was not followed and if ECP which has to ensure processes are followed is formed out of the process then of course that sounds really bad.

So yes to make an irregularity regular then something can be done.

Even if SC agrees to TuQ petition whole heartedly, so what will happen then? ECP is reconstituted and the same people are brought back in since leader of opposition and government both agree on the ECP today. Only difference, now there will be proper paperwork. Which I think can be done in 2 days. Allah Allah khairi sallah, shauk poora hogaya Supreme Court ke chakkar laganay ka.

Yes if the Process was not followed, first he could have said, Please do your paperwork and I won't go down this route.

I fear Zardari may have another game up his sleeves. This time he'll drag it on. Instead of 2 days, he'll take 200 days. He will pass a resolution in the Parliament that because of the ECP going void ab initio PPP has to continue for a few more months. Drag it till September, get reelected as President and now he's there for 5 years and you will need a 2/3rd majority to remove him.

March 16th is the official deadline for this government? Somehow he'll drag it on till September, not very hard in Pakistan.

 

[liontk]

They are not trouble makers they are doing their job, Qadri is trouble maker first he made money from poors nearly 25 Crore God knows where this money is, he threaten government in taliban style, and now he wants to delay the election so CJ did the right thing.

Its called a Canadian pakistani elites backed revolution and its free of charge too and yes your welcome though a little gratitude would be apopriate in this case mon ami.

 

[Chrome9]

"Awesome" -Brilliant analyses you hit most points - though there's one point I vehemently oppose and that's " If Supreme Court interprets day as night, then its night, no matter how obvious it may be written that its day" Ever since the restoration of the chief justice the power pendulum has swung and Judiciary has been empowered.

Don't get me wrong I am a believer of the sanctity of the courts and a believer in the rule of law however I believe the judiciary has on many occasions over stepped its remit and currently the checks and balances systems between the institutions has swung unfavorably and the justice's abusing the new found confidence of the people. The fact is if the SC interprets day as night than either the executive or the legislature should have the authority to over rule and bring about the correct decision to over rule anything unwarranted and harmful to the state.

In academic circles when discussing Pakistan the notion of the "troika" is pushed - i.e the fundamental pillars of Power in Pakistan - traditionally were - the President, Prime minister and the COAS. Now it seems its the beholden CJP that has replaces the COAS in Pakistans "troika"


Source: http://www.defence.pk/forums/nation...ce-supreme-court-day-1-a-5.html#ixzz2KhZEaV5T

 

[Awesome]

The point that I am trying to argue is much more fundamental than this side show - CJP has overstepped his authority and come across as arrogant and making a show of something that need not be. All his actions have judicial activism written over it and he seems to be more worried about cementing his place in the history books than actually delivering justice and jurisprudence on key constitutional topics.

Every country's Supreme Court judges are like this. In the US they send big shot lawyers crying home. They fire question upon question and really come off as bullying. Approaching the Supreme Court requires months of planning. Qadri just went in, winging it. To do it in this way itself was very disrespectful.

But they are still listening to him. I'm telling you it will be a big thing if they kick out his petition based on his dual nationality. It will be a game changing decision in Pakistan and will open a pandoras box. Every other thing that a person disagrees with a dual national will come under the scanner, especially voting rights. When voting rights go, 50% of the other things would go too.

So I think he may still establish locus standi and the judges won't push the matter beyond a certain limit. Qadri's arguments today were better than those yesterday. Two points: 1) SC entertained a Canadian Pakistani a few months back in the memogate scandal. 2) Supreme Court still has to guarantee his fundamental rights in the constitution as a Pakistan OR they risk declaring by extension that dual nationals don't have those fundamental rights guaranteed in the constitution.

 

[Awesome]

"Awesome" -Brilliant analyses you hit most points - though there's one point I vehemently oppose and that's " If Supreme Court interprets day as night, then its night, no matter how obvious it may be written that its day" Ever since the restoration of the chief justice the power pendulum has swung and Judiciary has been empowered.

Don't get me wrong I am a believer of the sanctity of the courts and a believer in the rule of law however I believe the judiciary has on many occasions over stepped its remit and currently the checks and balances systems between the institutions has swung unfavorably and the justice's abusing the new found confidence of the people. The fact is if the SC interprets day as night than either the executive or the legislature should have the authority to over rule and bring about the correct decision to over rule anything unwarranted and harmful to the state.

In academic circles when discussing Pakistan the notion of the "troika" is pushed - i.e the fundamental pillars of Power in Pakistan - traditionally were - the President, Prime minister and the COAS. Now it seems its the beholden CJP that has replaces the COAS in Pakistans "troika"

These powers make sense as long as no one in the judicial (Supreme Court), executive (Cabinent) and the legislative (Parliament) abuses their powers. Problem with Pakistan in the past has been that every one of them abused their powers. In my day as day and night as night declaration example, try to replace SC with somebody else. If not them, then who? This is the beauty of proper check and balances.

I don't hold the judiciary as over-reaching, since I know my executive and legislative bodies are run by really bad people that the Supreme Court has to be really tough on them. If 90% of the people you have are bad, then you need to do some serious work. If 90% of the people you have are good, then the 10% can be covered by regular checks and balances and each side pulls the other.

 

[Chrome9]

Every country's Supreme Court judges are like this. In the US they send big shot lawyers crying home. They fire question upon question and really come off as bullying. Approaching the Supreme Court requires months of planning. Qadri just went in, winging it. To do it in this way itself was very disrespectful.

But they are still listening to him. I'm telling you it will be a big thing if they kick out his petition based on his dual nationality. It will be a game changing decision in Pakistan and will open a pandoras box. Every other thing that a person disagrees with a dual national will come under the scanner, especially voting rights. When voting rights go, 50% of the other things would go too.

So I think he may still establish locus standi and the judges won't push the matter beyond a certain limit. Qadri's arguments today were better than those yesterday. Two points: 1) SC entertained a Canadian Pakistani a few months back in the memogate scandal. 2) Supreme Court still has to guarantee his fundamental rights in the constitution as a Pakistan OR they risk declaring by extension that dual nationals don't have those fundamental rights guaranteed in the constitution.

Agreed - there's only so much you can peddle this issue before opening a Pandora's box. Hopefully this matter won't become a media circus and the matter will be resolved amicably in accordance to the spirit of the law and Constitution.

 

[liontk]

while you guys might not take my statement seriously since I have no idea about ground reality because I haven't traveled to pakistan yet, however based on the economic numbers even an outsider could say that your in a deep mess and your creditor is IMF. This right there folks is a recipe for disaster itself, however I failed to see any form of urgency to reform the country and the same members are on indienne threads bashing them, when the situation in the house is beyond dire. Please listen to this men, he had a strong congregation in canada and could've spent his life remaining like a king based on the money donated by our community, I still remember on the eid festivals, professionals donating 6 figure checks, so you can get the idea that he is loaded and do not say that canadienne government is funding him either, its all the diaspora as you call it. I personally respect people who actually care about folks rather than preaching religion all day and this man is a perfect example of a guy, who is genuinely humble and you can check Minhaj foundation intiative. They do things from sponsoring kids, to helping orphans and furthermore assist in runaway brides from their families. I have huge respect and i do hope that he comes back to our communitie as we do need a strong leader to lead the congregation anyways.

 

[Awesome]

Seriously while you guys might not take my statement seriously since I have no idea about ground reality however based on the economic numbers even an outsider could say that your in a deep mess and your creditor is IMF. This right there folks is a recipe for disaster itself, however I failed to see any form of urgency to reform the country and the same members are on indienne threads bashing them, when the situation in the house is beyond dire. Please listen to this men, he had a strong congregation in canada and could've spent his life remaining like a king based on the money donated by our community, I still remember on the eid festivals, professionals donating 6 figure checks, so you can get the idea that he is loaded and do not say that canadienne government is funding him either, its all the diaspora as you call it. I personally respect people who actually care about folks rather than preaching religion all day and this man is a perfect example of a guy, who is genuinely humble and you can check Minhaj foundation intiative. They do things from sponsoring kids, to helping orphans and furthermore assist in runaway brides from their families. I have huge respect and i do hope that he comes back to our communitie as we do need a strong leader to lead the congregation anyways.

Buddy, Supreme Courts cannot care to such rhetoric. Qadri was made to shut it in the first 5 mins when he went on, on something similar. He may be the best person on the planet, but if he fails to make his case, this is the result he's going to get. In fact by saying these things in court you're bound to lose the case.

 

[Emmie]

and I propose that to Show those moroons who consider overseas Pakistanis any 'less Pakistani' stop remitences for a few months and then see what happens. Maybe the Case Govt has no Money to pay salaries to These moronic judges and their perks.

Nobody considers overseas Pakistanis of low importance, in fact the concept of dual nationality was brought in to facilitate overseas Pakistanis - it was people's very own Musharaf who amended Pakistan citizenship act and made dual nationals ineligible to contest the elections, however they still reserve the right to vote but unfortunately no mechanism exist for voting. There's a difference between overseas Pakistanis and Pakistanis holding dual nationality, apropos.

 

[Awesome]

I still think kal tak Supreme Court maan hi jayega.

 

[liontk]

Buddy, Supreme Courts cannot care to such rhetoric. Qadri was made to shut it in the first 5 mins when he went on, on something similar. He may be the best person on the planet, but if he fails to make his case, this is the result he's going to get. In fact by saying these things in court you're bound to lose the case.

If i remember the same supreme court allowed a military commander to reign in the government and get away with a coup, I think i will take the supreme courts opinion with a grain of salt especially with a case like pakistan. Whats the point of election, if the feudals based on my reading(did not even know that some countries still have european feudalism to this day) , there is still that facet of society competing to get elected and i clearly see a conflict of interest though I could be wrong completely, please do correct me, as I am here to learn.