Tables turned, 1,800 academics relocated to China in 2020, China beat US and became the world’s most attractive destination for scientists

[Hamartia Antidote]

The point is usa don't need Chinese, or other foreigners for that matter, to renouce their old citizenship to get usa one. That's how cheaply usa is selling its citizenship. It's crazy to reject such a good deal.
Can't blame usa though as it lacks the skills & knowledge at home.

But that's not how it works for China. Why are you throwing up a smokescreen?

If a Chinese citizen gets a US citizenship. China automatically declares them a non-citizen.

You are just adding to the long list in this thread of weak excuses, edge cases, and attempted smokescreens to confuse people of the actual facts. Why can't you just face reality.

 

[mili]

But that's not how it works for China.

If a Chinese citizen gets a US citizenship. China automatically declares them a non-citizen.

You are just adding to the long list in this thread of weak excuses, edge cases, and smokescreens. Why can't you just face realit

How does China know if someone has usa citizenship if usa don't require them to renounce first ?
Why can't u face reality usa is selling its passport very cheaply compared to China & other Asian countries.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

How does China know if someone has usa citizenship if usa don't require them to renounce first ?
Why can't u face reality usa is selling its passport very cheaply compared to China & other Asian countries.

Oh come on this is not 500 years ago where pieces of paper were sent by a horse.
Yet another smokescreen attempt.

People have Chinese passport #'s and other paperwork on file when they came over to reside here. When they become citizens the proper authorities in their old country are notified.

Oh and if their info is found to be phoney I'm sure their new citizenship is revoked. So don't use that excuse next.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

You are seriously dodging the question.

Why does the US only have a few thousand people renounce their citizenships every year while 10's of thousands of Chinese citizens do.

US citizens can also emigrate around the world just like the Chinese. Some do. But why are so few throwing away their citizenships as quickly as the Chinese do?




Apparently the answer is US citizens are far more content with their citizenship than the Chinese are with theirs...and that is something you refuse to admit...you keep giving the answer that "China is not an immigration country" and that is not a relevant answer to the question. My answer was it's because China is an emigration country...and the US isn't..and I'm not talking about the net difference of those coming in versus those going out. I'm only talking about those going out.

You have had 100's of thousands of people in just the last 20 years renounce their Chinese citizenship to gain citizenships in other countries of the world.

That is not a positive sign of a successful state. That's not saying you are a failed state but it is not helping you claim you are a successful state.

US has 4x lower population so you'd expect if China has around -30k emigration US would have around -8k emigration or so. That's roughly what the numbers you showed were. So I don't see how it's ridiculously disproportionate.

Then you have the fact that those getting citizenship represents a 10-15 year backlog as you need 5 years green card + however many years it took to get the green card, usually another 5-10 years.

So the naturalization status as of today mostly represents Chinese immigration from 2007-2012. Wait for the 2025-2030 naturalization status, they might surprise you, since they'll be for people who left China in 2015-2020.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

US has 4x lower population so you'd expect if China has around -30k emigration US would have around -8k emigration or so. That's roughly what the numbers you showed were. So I don't see how it's ridiculously disproportionate.

Oh...so are you going to try and tell us now that the 600,000/20=30,000 new US citizens from China every year covers all the world conversions?

There are zero Chinese in other countries converting. Just the US. This whole thing revolves around a focused love affair of the Chinese people exclusively with the US.

So that makes 4X population numbers fall into line.

Then you have the fact that those getting citizenship represents a 10-15 year backlog as you need 5 years green card + however many years it took to get the green card, usually another 5-10 years.

Oh I see your logic...if there wasn't a backlog only a few thousand people would actually be renouncing their Chinese citizenship a year because like maybe 15 years ago 400,000 of those (15*30) 450,000 would have already done it in one big shot and in subsequent years there would only be a trickle of 4,000 or so a year.

If you think that sounds more logical then sure. 600,000 is still 600,000 no matter which way you slice it.

So the naturalization status as of today mostly represents Chinese immigration from 2007-2012. Wait for the 2025-2030 naturalization status, they might surprise you, since they'll be Ok

ok, somehow 500,000 Chinese people desperate for US citizenship were able to get over here on a big boat between 2007-2012. I guess those immigration officers were asleep at the gates in those years and weren't using the headcount clicker.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Oh...so are you going to try and tell us now that the 600,000/20=30,000 new US citizens from China every year covers all the world conversions?

There are zero Chinese in other countries converting. Just the US. This whole thing revolves around a focused love affair of the Chinese people exclusively with the US.

So that makes 4X population numbers fall into line.



Oh I see your logic...if there wasn't a backlog only a few thousand people would actually be renouncing their Chinese citizenship a year because like maybe 15 years ago 400,000 of those (15*30) 450,000 would have already done it in one big shot and in subsequent years there would only be a trickle of 4,000 or so a year.

If you think that sounds more logical then sure. 600,000 is still 600,000 no matter which way you slice it.


ok, somehow 500,000 Chinese people were able to get over here on a big boat between 2007-2012. I guess those immigration officers were asleep at the gates in those years and weren't using the headcount clicker.

Uh wtf are you talking about? The 500k is spread out over several years as is the naturalization process. There is a known backlog that is openly displayed on the USCIS website. None of it is secret. Naturalization takes 5 years bare minimum due to green card requirements, and usually 10-15 years from date of entry to account for time to actually get the green card. It is not common to get an immigration eligible visa directly. If it's a 10-15 year wait from time of entry to naturalization then yes this is a backlog lmao, it is the literal definition of a backlog.

I don't get why this is complicated for you lmao even cursory research or just asking any one of the Indian Americans or Pakistani Americans who naturalized around here will confirm this.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Uh wtf are you talking about? The 500k is spread out over several years as is the naturalization process. There is a known backlog that is openly displayed on the USCIS website. None of it is secret. Naturalization takes 5 years bare minimum due to green card requirements, and usually 10-15 years from date of entry to account for time to actually get the green card. It is not common to get an immigration eligible visa directly. If it's a 10-15 year wait from time of entry to naturalization then yes this is a backlog lmao, it is the literal definition of a backlog.

I don't get why this is complicated for you lmao even cursory research or just asking any one of the Indian Americans or Pakistani Americans who naturalized around here will confirm this.

ok please spread that 600,000 over the last 20 years number out in how you you think it really should be if there were not any limit/backlog. Since it is not very complicated to understand.

Just fill it in to show us your simple explanation.

2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012
2013
2014
2015
2016
2017
2018
2019
2020
2021


let me guess
2007 50,000
2008 50,000
2009 50,000
2010 50,000
2011 50,000
2012 50,000
2013 5000
2014 5000

etc...

 

[TheSolution]

NO. We should partial open up our society and recognize our shortcomings.

Chinese people have high IQ, unity and discipline. But our bodies are not strong. At the Olympic Games, we are good at skills and lack explosive power.
For example, Su Bingtian's 100 meter result(9''83) is already our limit, but it can only be regarded as ordinary in Jamaica. I agree with the introduction of excellent black and white athletes.

How can you accept a non-Chinese to represent China?

That medal belongs to the country that athlete is from, doesn't really mean anything what country they represent on paper.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

ok please spread that 600,000 over the last 20 years number out in how you you think it really should be if there were not any limit/backlog. Since it is not very complicated to understand.

Just fill it in to show us your simple explanation.

2000
2001
2002
2003
2004
2005
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012
2013
2014
2015
2016
2017
2018
2019
2020
2021


let me guess
2007 50,000
2008 50,000
2009 50,000
2010 50,000
2011 50,000
2012 50,000
2013 5000
2014 5000

etc...

Let's see if this comes true. Much simpler as it is easily falsifiable.

Naturalization numbers:

2022: within 10% of 2021

2023: within 10% of 2022

2024: lower than 2023, minimum 10% decline relative to last year

2025: lower than 2024, minimum 10% decline relative to last year

...

2030: minimum 30% lower than 2021

Easily verified. We're both going to be around. This isn't far into the future.

 

[MultaniGuy]

Tables turned, 1,800 academics relocated to China in 2020, China beat US and became the world’s most attractive destination for scientists

Scientists leave the UK as China overtakes US as most favoured destination​

01 Feb 2022 | News byte

The UK suffered an outflow of nearly 1,300 scientists in 2020, having been a net importer of academics in 2015, the year before the Brexit vote to leave the EU, OECD data shows.

The new analysis of scientific migration data also shows a remarkable turnaround in the fortunes of the US and China.

In 2015, the US was the most attractive scientific destination in the world, enticing close to 3,000 net scientists. But by 2020, that dropped to 1,000.

In the same period, China went from losing scientists, to replacing the US as the world’s most attractive destination. In 2020, a net total nearly 1,800 academics relocated to the country.

Scientists leave the UK as China overtakes US as most favoured destination

The UK suffered an outflow of nearly 1,300 scientists in 2020, having been a net importer of academics in 2015, the year before the Brexit vote to leave the EU, OECD data shows.

sciencebusiness.net

I hope this is true.

I hope China does trade with Pakistan, so Pakistani industries mature.

Please buy Pakistani textile and carpet goods.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Let's see if this comes true. Much simpler as it is easily falsifiable.

Naturalization numbers:

2022: within 10% of 2021

2023: within 10% of 2022

2024: lower than 2023, minimum 10% decline relative to last year

2025: lower than 2024, minimum 10% decline relative to last year

...

2030: minimum 30% lower than 2021

Easily verified. We're both going to be around. This isn't far into the future.

Why can't you just simply write down an example of the numbers from the last 20 years that can show us the story you claim instead of going off on a new tangent about the future.

Your refusal to back up your previous assertion with example numbers just makes me think your math doesn't pan out.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

Why can't you just simply write down an example of the numbers from the last 20 years that can show us the story you claim instead of going off on a new tangent about the future.

Your refusal to back up your previous assertion with example numbers just makes me think your math doesn't pan out.

You almost never use sources with your assertions so I'm not going to waste my labor.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

You almost never use sources with your assertions so I'm not going to waste my labor.

I knew if you actually ran your numbers over the last 20 years it wouldn't pan out as the nice picture you planned. No shocker at all.

 

[FairAndUnbiased]

I knew your numbers didn't pan out. No shocker at all.

Burden is on you to prove USCIS wrong. I said there was a minimum 5 years wait time for naturalization. I'm right according to USCIS itself.

Naturalization Statistics | USCIS

The United States has a long history of welcoming immigrants from all parts of the world. During the last decade, USCIS welcomed more than 7.7 million naturalized citizens into the fabric of our nation.

www.uscis.gov

7.0 years between receiving green card and naturalization for Chinese as of 2020.

The fastest you can get a green card is by marriage to citizen. The wait time is 10-17 months.

Green Card Processing Times - 2024

Find out how long it takes to get a family-based green card, whether you're a spouse, parent, or child of a U.S. citizen or green card holder.

www.boundless.com

The second fastest is marriage to green card holder. 23-28 months.

Family reunion for relatives of US citizens is 7-10 years. It's longer for Filipinos and Mexicans so let's go with 7 for Chinese.

H-1B is 3-6 years on average before converting to green card.

The H-1B Visa Program and Its Impact on the U.S. Economy

This fact sheet provides an overview of the H-1B visa category and petition process, addresses the myths perpetuated about the H-1B visa category, and highlights the key contributions H-1B workers make to the U.S. economy.

www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org

Looks to me like my estimates of 10-15 year is correct according to USCIS itself and immigration lawyers. Naturalization numbers today reflect immigration from 10-15 years ago.

Average H-1B stays in US for 3 years, gets green card for 7, naturalizes... 10 years. Anything else like family reunion takes 7-8 years + 7 years as green card, 14-15 years. Hmm. 10-15 years that number comes up again.

Hope you don't run away lmao.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Burden is on you to prove USCIS wrong. I said there was a minimum 5 years wait time for naturalization. I'm right according to USCIS itself.

Naturalization Statistics | USCIS

The United States has a long history of welcoming immigrants from all parts of the world. During the last decade, USCIS welcomed more than 7.7 million naturalized citizens into the fabric of our nation.

www.uscis.gov

7.0 years between receiving green card and naturalization for Chinese as of 2020.

The fastest you can get a green card is by marriage to citizen. The wait time is 10-17 months.

Green Card Processing Times - 2024

Find out how long it takes to get a family-based green card, whether you're a spouse, parent, or child of a U.S. citizen or green card holder.

www.boundless.com

The second fastest is marriage to green card holder. 23-28 months.

Family reunion for relatives of US citizens is 7-10 years. It's longer for Filipinos and Mexicans so let's go with 7 for Chinese.

H-1B is 3-6 years on average before converting to green card.

The H-1B Visa Program and Its Impact on the U.S. Economy

This fact sheet provides an overview of the H-1B visa category and petition process, addresses the myths perpetuated about the H-1B visa category, and highlights the key contributions H-1B workers make to the U.S. economy.

www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org

Looks to me like my estimates of 10-15 year is correct according to USCIS itself and immigration lawyers. Naturalization numbers today reflect immigration from 10-15 years ago.

Hope you don't run away lmao.

I'm not debating that. I know there is 5+ years. So how is that supposedly going to shuffle that 600,000 over the last 20.

Are you going to say that nobody has applied for citizenship in the last 5 years and all of the current ones are actually from a huge pileup from before 2017 and when that stack is fullfilled the count is going to drop from the 10's of thousands to maybe just thousands.

Any particular reason you think 2017 is the big cutoff?

Let's look at some numbers from a website (I supposedly never link from)


https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/f...2019/yearbook_immigration_statistics_2019.pdf
PERSONS OBTAINING LAWFUL PERMANENT RESIDENT STATUS BY REGION AND SELECTED COUNTRY OF LAST RESIDENCE: FISCAL YEARS 1820 TO 2019 –

China
2000-2019: 591,711 (avg 59,000)

2010 67,634
2011 83,603
2012 78,184
2013 68,410
2014 72,492
2015 70,977
2016 77,658
2017 66,479
2018 61,848
2019 60,029


So yes i see a spike in 2011 and 2016 and 2019 is low.
I would expect with Covid the numbers for 2020 and 2021 will be lower.

But you don't see a number like
2010: 150,000
2019: 10,000