T-LORAMIDS Tender | Updates & Discussion

[Bismarck]

At least put some emoticons in your posts..... you sound serious, you cold German.

I do my best.


Wait.............

 

[-SINAN-]

1. Turkish MIM-104 cant strike Israel jets, if you choose Patriots.
2. Aselsans IFF system is only developed for fighter jets, and cant be integrated in airdefence system.

http://www.todayszaman.com/news-256...longer-friend-for-turkeys-f-16s-warships.html

More technical discussion is above my head... Maybe @Hyperion or @cabatli_53 can help us.

 

[armchairPrivate]

Turkey open to new bids for anti-missile system
Ankara (AFP) - Turkey said Saturday it was open to new bids in its plan to acquire its first long-range anti-missile system, should its controversial negotiations with China come to nothing.

"It is not a finalised deal yet. If US and European companies make us better offers, we will continue to talk with them," said Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, who was quoted by Turkish newspapers.

Last month, in a move that irritated Turkey's allies in NATO, particularly the United States, Ankara announced it was entering talks with the China Precision Machinery Export-Import Corporation (CPMIEC) to buy a long-range anti-missile system.

The US said it had "serious concerns" about the deal estimated at $4 billion (2.9 billion euros). Over the past decade the US has hit the Chinese company with a series of sanctions for selling arms and missile technology to Iran and Syria.

CPMIEC, which makes the HQ-9 missile system, beat out competition from a US partnership of Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, Russia's Rosoboronexport, and Italian-French consortium Eurosam.

Davutoglu said Turkey had ruled out the Russian company but not the other two. "If offers more suitable for us are formulated, our relevant authorities will evaluate them," the minister added.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Wednesday defended the decision to enter into talks with China. "Nobody has the right to intervene in (Turkey's) independent decisions," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/turkey-open-bids-anti-missile-system-170459433.html

 

[zzzz]

Speaking to journalists while returning from his Kosovo trip on Thursday, Erdogan reiterated that Turkey will go ahead with purchasing the Chinese defense system as the firm is the only one that is willing to co-produce the defense system with Turkey and is also offering the cheapest contract price.

“Following the Chinese defense system, co-production of France and Italy comes with an extra $1 billion, followed by the US with an extra $1.2 billion and Russia requires $4 billion extra and Russian's system is the best in terms of quality and range,” Erdogan said.

http://www.worldbulletin.net/?aType=haber&ArticleID=121538

 

[Seyfullah]

Füze ihalesinde kritik gelişme

Giriş: 28 Ekim 2013 10:0175,168 OkunmaGüncelleme: 28 Ekim 2013 16:2410 Yorum

• füze sistemi üretme kararı gizli tutuldu. O madde ABD'yi rahatsız etti.
  
  Yeni Şafak gazetesinden Abdülkadir Selvi'nin haberine göre, füze hızı kadar olmasa da Çin'den alınacak füze konusunda hızlı gelişmeler yaşanıyor.
  
  Çin füzesine ABD'nin beklentilerin ötesinde tepki göstermesi üzerine Başbakan Erdoğan, 'Füze için teklif getirilirse düşünürüz' demişti.
  
  Başbakan'ın bu açıklamasından sonra kritik bir adım atıldı. Savunma Sanayii, füze ihalesinde görüşmeye kalan üç firmaya teklif sürelerini 31 Ocak 2014 tarihine kadar uzatmaları ve tekliflerini yenilemeleri için yazı yazdı.
  
  Çin'in birinci sırada yer aldığı füze ihalesinde Fransa-İtalya ortaklığı ve ABD görüşmeye kalmıştı.
  
  Savunma Sanayii Müsteşarlığı tarafından ilgili firmalara gönderilen resmi yazıda, 31 Ekim tarihinde dolacak olan teklif sürelerinin 31 Ocak tarihine kadar uzatılabileceği bildirildi.
  
  Firmalara teklif süreleriyle birlikte yeni teklifte de bulunabilecekleri ve bunun değerlendirmeye alınacağı iletildi.
  
  Başbakan Erdoğan'ın, 'Yeni teklif getirsinler görüşürüz' açıklamasından sonra ilk somut adım atıldı. Böylece, ihalenin Çin'e verilmesine tepki gösteren ABD'ye teklif süresini uzatma ve yeni teklif sunma imkanı sağlandı.
  
  TÜRKİYE'NİN ÖNCELİKLERİ
  
  ABD'liler füze ihalesinde 'her şey bir anda oldu-bitti' şeklinde bir hava oluşturmaya çalışıyorlar ama durum bu gerçeği yansıtmıyor. Türkiye, Uzun Menzilli Füze Savunma Sistemi ihalesine tam 6 yıl önce çıktı.
  
  Teklifler alındı, değerlendirmeler yapıldı. 31 Ocak 2013 tarihinde yapılan Savunma Sanayii İcra Komitesi toplantısında görüşmeye kalan firmaların açıklanması bekleniyordu. Yüksek fiyat verdiği için elenen Rusya Antey 2500, ABD yine Patriotlarla, Fransız-İtalyan ortaklığı Samp-T füze savunma sistemiyle ihaleye katılmıştı. 26 Eylül tarihli SSİK toplantısında birinci sırada geldiği açıklanan Çin de yine FD-2000'le ihaleye katılmıştı. O zaman da Çin ihaleyi almaya en yakın teklifi vermişti. Ancak İcra Komitesi'nde Başbakan Erdoğan, 'Ortak üretim yapalım' önerisini getirdi.
  
  Bunun üzerine Savunma Sanayii yetkilileri, yeni durum muvacehesinde ilgili firmalarla temasa geçti.
  
  Türkiye'nin öncelikleri şunlardı:
  
  1-Ortak üretim.
  
  2-Süre
  
  3-Fiyat
  
  ÜÇ DÜŞÜNÜLDÜ 1 KARAR VERİLDİ
  
  ABD'nin, füze ihalesini Çin'in kazanması üzerine, ihalenin oldu-bittiye getirildiği şeklinde bir hava oluşturmasına rağmen, bunun gerçekleri yansıtmadığı ortaya çıktı.
  
  Çünkü İcra Komitesi'nde alınan 'ortak üretim' konusundaki karar iletilmesine rağmen ABD, sunduğu 3 teklifte de ortak üretim konusunda adım atmadı. Patriotların denenmiş bir sistem olduğunda ısrar ederek, ortak üretime yanaşmadı. Bunun yerine paket halinde satış sistemini önerdi.
  
  Firmalardan bu şartlar kapsamında tekliflerini yenilemeleri istendi. Putin'in özel önem verdiği ihaleyi almak isteyen Rusya, teklifini fiyat konusunda yenileyerek, 5.2 milyar dolardan aşağıya çekti. Firmalar üç kez aynı teklifi sundular ama aceleci davranmayan Türkiye, 'Üç düşündü, bir karar verdi.'
  
  FİRMALARIN FİYAT TEKLİFLERİ NEYDİ
  
  250 kilometre menzile sahip olan Rusya Antey 2500 tipi füzeleriyle girdiği ihalede teknik özellikleri itibariyle yüksek puan alırken, verdiği fiyat teklifi ile ihale dışında kaldı.
  
  İhaleye
  
  Çin, 3.5 milyar dolar
  
  Fransa-İtalya ortaklığı, 4.4 milyar dolar
  
  ABD, 4.5 milyar dolar fiyat verdi.
  
  YERLİ KATKI ORANLARI
  
  31 Ocak tarihli İcra Komitesi Toplantısı'nda alınan karar gereğince ihalede ortak üretim ve yerli katkı oranları da değerlendirmede ayrı bir puanlamaya tabi tutuldu.
  
  Çin, ortak üretim ve yüzde 30 yerli katkı önerdi.
  
  Fransız-İtalyan ortaklığı ve ABD ise ortak üretime yanaşmazken, yerli katkı oranını yüzde 10-12 arasında tuttu.
  
  İhaleyi 3.5 milyar dolar fiyat önerisi ve 80 puanla birinci sırada tamamlayan Çin, ortak üretim ve 1.1 milyar dolarlık iş payı sundu.
  
  Tepkinin altında yatan neden...
  
  31 Ocak tarihine uzatılan sürede, eğer ihale şartlarında bir değişiklik olmazsa, Türkiye-Çin ortak üretimi FD 2000 tipi Uzun Menzilli Füzelerin üretimi Ankara'da gerçekleştirilecek. Savunma Sanayimizin önemli firmaları olan ROKETSAN, ASELSAN ve AYESAŞ füze üretiminde 1.1 milyar dolarlık bir iş hacmiyle Çinlilerle ortak üretimi gerçekleştirecekler.
  
  BMC'DEN FÜZE RAMPASI
  
  Türkiye'de üretilecek olan füze savunma sistemlerinin taşınması ve havaya fırlatılması için BMC kamyonlarından yararlanılacak. 250 adet BMC kamyonu füze rampalarının taşıyıcı özelliğine göre modifiye edilecek.
  
  SADECE FÜZELERE DEĞİL
  
  Çin'le ortak üretilecek olan füzelerin teknik özelliklerinde Türkiye'nin ihtiyaçlarına göre önemli değişikliklere gidildiği ortaya çıktı.
  
  Uzun Menzilli Hava Savunma Sistemlerinin füzelere karşı özelliği ön plana çıkmasına rağmen, Türkiye'nin, Çin'le birlikte ortak üretmeyi planladığı sistemin ise yüzde 70 hava soluyan sistemler olan savaş uçakları, helikopterler ve İHA'lara, yüzde 30 oranında ise füzelere karşı etkili olacak.
  
  MENZİLİ 600 KİLOMETRE
  
  Balistik ve güdümlü füzelere karşı etkili olan FD 2000 füze savunma sisteminin menzili 600 kilometre. Füzeleri 150 kilometreden tespit eden sistem, Türkiye topraklarına gelmeden füzeyi imha ediyor.
  
  Füze sistemi,
  
  1-Arama radarı
  
  2-Takip radarı
  
  3-İmha bölümlerinden oluşuyor.
  
  26 Eylül tarihli Savunma Sanayii İcra Komitesi toplantısından sonra yapılan açıklamada Uzun Menzilli Füze Savunma Sistemleri ihalesini birinci sırada kazanan Çin'le görüşmelere başlanacağı açıklanmıştı.
  
  Bu açıklama ABD'nin ayağa kalkmasına yol açsa da bilinmeyen bir durum değil. Ama asıl açıklanmayan bir madde var ki, Türkiye açısından hayati öneme haiz.
  
  O da ikinci madde.
  
  Peki orada ne deniliyor?
  
  'Yüksek İrtifada Hava Savunma Sistemi'
  
  ABD'NİN TEPKİSİ BU YÜZDEN Mİ?
  
  6 yıldır devam eden ihale sürecinin her aşamasını bilen ABD, sanki ilk kez haberdar oluyormuşçasına tepki gösterdi.
  
  ABD'nin aşırı tepkisinin arkasında açıklanmayan 2. madde yatıyor olmasın.
  
  Birinci füzeyi Çin'le ortak üretmeyi planlayan Türkiye'nin asıl hedefi Yüksek İrtifa Gelişmiş Hava ve Füze Savunma Sistemi kurmak.
  
  Bu sistem hem kendi üretimimiz olacak hem de daha yüksek irtifadan gelecek olan füzeleri karşılayacak.
  
  'Türkiye hep alıcı olarak kalsın'
  
  Türk mühendisleri tarafından tasarlanacak olan Yüksek İrtifa Gelişmiş Hava ve Füze Savunma Sistemi'nin üretilmesinde Çin, bize teknik destek sağlayacak.
  
  İhalede ABD, Rusya ve Fransız-İtalyan ortaklığının yanaşmadığı nokta bu: 'Türkiye kendi sistemini üretmesin. Üretici biz olalım Türkiye alıcı olarak kalsın.'
  
  Peki bunun NATO üyeliği ile ilgisi ne?
  
  Bu durumda Dışişleri Bakanı Ahmet Davutoğlu'nun, 'Niye bizimle ortak üretimden kaçınılıyor?' sorusu önem kazanıyor.
  
  Türkiye, Çin'den alacağı teknik destekle birlikte yazılımını kendisi yaptığı Yüksek İrtifa Hava ve Füze Savunma Sistemlerini üretip, kendi hava savunmasını güçlendirecek. Yetinmeyecek bunu ikinci ülkelere de satabilecek.
  
  Çin'in verdiği desteği vermeye yanaşmayan ABD ve Fransa-İtalya ortaklığı kararını gözden geçirir ve bunu vermeyi taahhüt ederse, neden olmasın? Zaten aynı savunma sistemi olan ortak NATO üyeliğimiz ve Soğuk Savaş dönemine uzanan dostluğumuz bunu gerektirmez mi?
  
  Birinci Körfez Savaşı ve Suriye sorununda olduğu gibi başı sıkıştığı anda NATO'ya koşan Türkiye, bu sistemi üretmeyi hak etmiyor mu?
  
  TÜRKİYE NELERİ YAPTI
  
  Hava savunma sistemlerinde çalışmalarını hızlandıran Türkiye,
  
  1-Alçak İrtifa Hava Savunma Sistemlerini ürettik. (Roketsan-Aselsan ortak üretimi)
  
  2-Orta İrtifa Hava Savunma Sistemi'nin tasarımını gerçekleştirdik. Üretim aşamasına geçilecek.
  
  3-Yüksek İrtifalı Hava Savunma Sistemi'ni yapmayı planlıyoruz.
  
  
  
  and this bit from Google translate: on the next post

 

[Seyfullah]

The decision to produce missile system were kept secret. That matter has troubled the United States .

According to the newspaper Yeni Safak Abdulkadir Selvi , the missile is not up to speed quickly on the missile to be happening in China .

Beyond the expectations of the United States to react to the Prime Minister on the Chinese missile ' offer is brought to Missile think ,' he said .

This is a critical step was taken after the Prime Minister announced . Defense Industries , the company offered the remaining three times to discuss missile tender until January 31, 2014 wrote for extensions and renewals bids .

In the first place in China and the U.S. to discuss missile was tender France-Italy joint venture .

Official letter sent to the firms concerned by the Undersecretariat for Defense Industries , the offer will expire on October 31 reported that the duration of the extension until 31 January .

Companies who may also offer periods and its evaluation will be forwarded to the new proposal .

Prime Minister Erdogan , ' see them bring new offer ' statement after the first concrete step was taken. Thus, the extension of the duration of the tender offer and the United States reacted to grant China the opportunity to submit a new proposal was provided.

TURKEY'S PRIORITIES

Tender missile Americans ' fait accompli at everything ' in the form of trying to create an air , but the situation does not reflect this fact . Turkey, a long -range missile defense system tender was exactly six years ago .

Offers received , evaluations were performed. Defense Industry Executive Committee meeting held on 31 January 2013 to discuss the remaining companies were expected to explain . Eliminated for the high price of Russian Antey 2500, the United States still Patriotlarla , French - Italian partnership Samp -T missile defense system participated in the tender . Defence Industry Executive meeting held on 26 September in the first place in China, announced that it had participated in the tender FD- 2000 . Closest to the tender offer , then gave the Chinese . However, the Executive Committee, the Prime Minister , ' Let's Co-production ' has brought the proposal .

On top of that Defense officials provinces along the new situation has contacted the relevant companies .

Turkey's priorities were:

1 - Co-production .

2 - Duration

3- Price

THE DECISION WAS one thought

The United States , China, won the tender for the missile on - quick sticks brought in the form of the tender was to create an air , although it appeared to reflect the facts .

Because the Executive Committee, the ' co-production ' in spite of the decision on the transmission of the United States, offers three proposals did not step in the production of the common . Insisting that the Patriot system is a proven , refused to co-production . Instead of selling the system proposed in the package .

Companies were asked to renew proposals under these conditions . Given special attention to Putin's Russia who wish to tender , bid on price , renewing pulled down 5.2 billion dollars . Companies presented the same offer three times , but do not act hasty Turkey, 'Three thought made a decision. '

WHAT WAS PARTY PRICE DEALS

Russia, which has a range of 250 km Antey -type missiles into 2500 while the highest score at the tender specifications , the price proposal and stayed out of the auction .

tender

China , 3.5 billion dollars

France-Italy joint venture , $ 4.4 billion

U.S. gave $ 4.5 billion price .

LOCAL RATE OF CONTRIBUTION

Tender in accordance with the decision taken in the meeting of the Executive Committee on January 31 co-production and assessment of local contribution rates were subjected to a separate scoring .

China has proposed joint production and 30 percent local content .

Yanaşmazken French-Italian co-production partnership and the United States , held between 10-12 percent local content .

The recommendation of the tender price of $ 3.5 billion , and completion of 80 points in the first place in China , co-production and offered $ 1.1 billion share of the business .

The underlying reason for the response ...

January 31 extended period of time , you must change the tender conditions , the Turkey- China co-production will take place in Ankara, the FD 2000 -type long-range missile production . Defense is important companies in our industry ROKETSAN AYESAŞ ASELSAN and a business volume of $ 1.1 billion missile production will realize the Chinese co-production .

BMC missile launchers

Missile defense systems that will be produced in Turkey, BMC trucks utilized for transporting and launching into the air . BMC truck chassis 250 launchers will be modified according to the nature .

NOT ONLY missile

China and Turkey to the needs of co- produced major changes in the specifications of the missiles appeared gidildiği .

Long-range air defense systems against missiles , despite the forefront of property in Turkey , China and the joint plans to produce 70 percent of the air-breathing system with systems warplanes , helicopters and İHA'lara , while 30 per cent will be effective against missiles .

RANGE 600 kilometers

Ballistic and guided missiles, anti-missile defense system that is effective against a range of 600 kilometers FD 2000 . 150 kilometers of the system that detects missiles , missile destruction is coming to the territory of Turkey .

Missile system ,

First - search radar

2- Track radar

Consists of three parts - destruction .

Dated September 26 said in a statement after the meeting of the Defense Industry Executive Committee, Long-Range Missile Defense Systems to begin negotiations with China, announced the winning bid in the first place .

This statement is not a situation unknown to the United States to stand it leads . But the undisclosed matter , however, is of major importance for Turkey .

It is also the second item.

So what's out there is called ?

' High Altitude Air Defense System

 

[Seyfullah]

It didn't fit so here is the rest:

RESPONSE OF THE UNITED STATES IS THIS SO ?

6 years, who knows every stage of the tender process ongoing U.S. oluyormuşçasına reacted as if aware for the first time .

2 described in the United States behind the extreme response lies not matter .

Turkey plans to co- produce with China, the main objective of the first missile Advanced Air and Missile Defense System to establish high altitude .

This system will have its own production as well as more high- altitude missiles to meet the future .

"Turkey always keep it as a receiver '

Designed by Turkish engineers in the production of the High Altitude Advanced Air and Missile Defense System in China , we will provide technical support .

Tender, the U.S., Russia , and the French - Italian partnership weary look like this: ' Turkey duce its own system . Let us keep Turkey as the recipient of the manufacturer . '

So what to do with it membership in NATO ?

In this case, Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu , ' Why are you avoiding the production shared with us ? ' The question is gaining importance .

Turkey, China, with technical support will take the High Altitude Air and Missile Defense Systems software itself, produce , strengthen their air defenses . Sell to countries not content ourselves from it .

Refuse to give its support for China's decision to the United States and France-Italy joint venture committed to review and if it , why not? I already shared the same defense system that does not require membership of NATO and friendshipthat dates back to the Cold War ?

As in the first Gulf War and the conflict in Syria head stuck running at the NATO Turkey, Does not deserve this system produce ?

What did Turkey

Turkey to accelerate the work of air defense systems ,

Produced the first - Low Altitude Air Defense Systems . ( ROKETSAN - Aselsan co-production )

2- Medium Altitude Air Defense System design did. First stage will be passed.

I plan to do 3- high-altitude Air Defense System .

 

[Seyfullah]

Turkey asks US to ‘extend pricing’ on missile offer
WASHINGTON - Reuters

The US Patriot is one of the systems competing for Turkey’s long-range anti-missile and air defense system. DAILY NEWS photo, Selahattin SÖNMEZ

Turkey has asked the United States to extend the pricing on Raytheon Co’s Patriot missile defense system proposal, two sources familiar with the discussions told Reuters on Monday, a sign that Ankara is keeping its options open in case its talks with the preferred Chinese supplier fall through.

Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdoğan last week said Ankara would be open to new offers if its talks about co-producing a long-range air and missile defense system withChina Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp (CPMIEC) fail.

Turkey’s decision to choose a $3.4 billion Chinese offer over rival bids from Russian, U.S. and European firms has raised concern among Turkey’s Western allies. The sources familiar with the U.S. proposal to supply a Raytheon-built Patriot missile defense system said Turkish officials had requested an extension of the pricing included in the bid while their talks continued with China.

“It’s clear that they are trying to hedge their bets,” said one of the sources, who was not authorized to speak publicly. It was not immediately clear how long of an extension was requested.

Turkey announced in September it had chosen China’s FD-2000 missile defense system over rival systems from Franco/Italian Eurosam SAMP/T and Raytheon. It said CPMIEC offered the most competitive terms and would allow co-production in Turkey.

The U.S. ambassador to Turkey said on Oct. 24 that Washington was concerned that the deal with the Chinese firm could undermine allied air defenses and had begun “expert” talks with Ankara to assess the potential impact.

CPMIEC is under U.S. sanctions for violations of the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act. NATO is also worried about Turkey buying a system not compatible with those of other member states, potentially undermining a core principle of the 28-nation alliance.

The sources said Turkey’s missile defense deal could also affect its plans to buy radar-evading F-35 fighter jets built by Lockheed Martin Corp, which also builds the PAC-3 missiles used by the Patriot missile defense system.

“Do you really want a Chinese radar painting the F-35s every time they fly in or out of a Turkish base?” said one of the sources.
October/29/2013

 

[faithfulguy]

Turkey open to new bids for anti-missile system
Ankara (AFP) - Turkey said Saturday it was open to new bids in its plan to acquire its first long-range anti-missile system, should its controversial negotiations with China come to nothing.

"It is not a finalised deal yet. If US and European companies make us better offers, we will continue to talk with them," said Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu, who was quoted by Turkish newspapers.

Last month, in a move that irritated Turkey's allies in NATO, particularly the United States, Ankara announced it was entering talks with the China Precision Machinery Export-Import Corporation (CPMIEC) to buy a long-range anti-missile system.

The US said it had "serious concerns" about the deal estimated at $4 billion (2.9 billion euros). Over the past decade the US has hit the Chinese company with a series of sanctions for selling arms and missile technology to Iran and Syria.

CPMIEC, which makes the HQ-9 missile system, beat out competition from a US partnership of Raytheon and Lockheed Martin, Russia's Rosoboronexport, and Italian-French consortium Eurosam.

Davutoglu said Turkey had ruled out the Russian company but not the other two. "If offers more suitable for us are formulated, our relevant authorities will evaluate them," the minister added.

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan on Wednesday defended the decision to enter into talks with China. "Nobody has the right to intervene in (Turkey's) independent decisions," he said.

http://news.yahoo.com/turkey-open-bids-anti-missile-system-170459433.html

Once US put pressure on Turkey. Turkey will come up with unacceptable conditions for China and the deal will fall apart. Turkey will then accept a Nato supplied system. In the end, Turkey just choose the Chinese system to pressure the west to give Turkey better terms. China know it too so they are not putting any hope of finishing this deal.

 

[xenon54 out]

Once US put pressure on Turkey. Turkey will come up with unacceptable conditions for China and the deal will fall apart. Turkey will then accept a Nato supplied system. In the end, Turkey just choose the Chinese system to pressure the west to give Turkey better terms. China know it too so they are not putting any hope of finishing this deal.

We cant be sure since this is not the first deal we made with china.

Exsample:
https://defence.pk/threads/which-sam-system-turkic-prefer.285522/page-2#post-4911690

 

[TheCommander]

US Undersecretary of Defense Miller visits Turkey to assess Chinese missile deal

US Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Jim Miller has concluded his visit to Turkey to assess the impact of its plans to co-produce a long-range air and missile defense system with a Chinese firm under US sanctions.

A US Embassy official in Ankara declined to give the details of Miller's visit. "The details of Miller's schedule are not available," he told Today's Zaman.

"Undersecretary of Defense for Policy Miller visited Turkey for bilateral consultations on regional security issues, including Syria, the US-Turkish bilateral defense relationship and our partnership in NATO," added the US official.

Turkey, a member of the NATO military alliance, said in September it had chosen the FD-2000 missile defense system from China Precision Machinery Import and Export Corp (CPMIEC), over rival systems from Russian, the US and European firms. The CPMIEC is under US sanctions for violations of the Iran, North Korea and Syria Nonproliferation Act.

Frank Ricciardone, the US ambassador to Turkey, said last week that Washington was seriously concerned over the Chinese missile deal. "We are seriously concerned about what this means for allied missile and air defense for us and for Turkey," he said, adding that expert talks between Washington and Ankara to assess the impact of its missile deal had begun.

"We have really just begun expert discussions with the government of Turkey. We will keep that very respectful, this will be done in official channels as between allies and friends," Ricciardone told reporters in Ankara. Miller's visit aims to discuss the missile deal and what it means for Turkey-US bilateral defense relations.

A Turkish Defense Ministry official told Today's Zaman that Miller met with the undersecretary of defense, Lt. Gen. Sezai Bostancı. Miller also met with Undersecretary Feridun Sinirlioğlu on Wednesday, a Turkish Foreign Ministry official has confirmed to Today's Zaman.

NATO Secretary-General Anders Fogh Rasmussen has also voiced concerns about Turkey buying a system that is not compatible with those of other members, potentially undermining a core principle of NATO.

Turkey has said it is likely to sign the $3.4 billion deal with CPMIEC, but that its decision is not yet final.

Turkish officials insist the move is not politically motivated and say China's offer met its primary demands on price and the ability to carry out much of the production in Turkey.

"We are taking a step towards the future and our personnel will be involved in all of the laboratory work," said Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, adding that NATO's views on the matter were "not a determining factor".

"If NATO is so sensitive on this subject, many countries which are currently NATO members still have Russian weapons in their inventories," Erdoğan told reporters.

Miller's talks in Ankara are part of what appears to be intensified diplomacy between Ankara and Washington. US Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland also arrived in Ankara on Thursday for a separate visit to discuss bilateral issues including the missile deal and the crisis in Syria. Another US official, Assistant Secretary of State for the Bureau of Conflict and Stabilization Operations Frederick Barton, is due to visit Turkey for talks next week.
http://www.todayszaman.com/news-330...ts-turkey-to-assess-chinese-missile-deal.html

All these pressures, threats, blackmails etc. prove that we are on the right track. We must be smart to deal with US and other so called allies if we are not enough strong to repel them like the Sultan Abdulhamid II did in his time. To me all these things are good signs that we are becoming a real independent country. May Allah help us throughout this progress!

 

[Saithan]

In missile deal and 'indigenous' fighter jet plan, Ankara overreaches on defense


3 November 2013 /NOAH BLASER, İSTANBUL
NATO remains in an uproar over Turkey's choice of a Chinese missile defense system and Turkey is feeling the heat: This week, Turkey's defense minister suggested that the purchase process “has just started,” signaling that Turkey might change its decision after weeks of defending the deal.

But behind the acquisition it is Ankara's inflexible arms purchase policies that are hamstringing its military far more than the confusing signals it is sending to NATO allies, say defense analysts. If Turkey wants to professionalize its bloated military -- and if it wants to foster a business-savvy defense industry -- it will have to compromise on its nationalistic arms purchase policy that demands technology transfer and co-production with every foreign arms deal, those analysts say.

“First, almost everything written so far about the missile deal has simply been wrong,” said Aaron Stein, the Nonproliferation Program Manager at the Center for Economics and Foreign Policy Studies (EDAM). In the international press, the decision to choose China's HQ-9 anti-aircraft and missile defense system over European and US competitors has been widely regarded as a signal that Turkey is moving away from its 61-year partnership with NATO -- China's weapons system that can't be integrated in NATO's existent missile shield -- but the decision “really comes down to Ankara's assertive policies on technology transfer arrangements in its foreign arms purchases,” said Stein.

Since the mid-1980s, Turkey has moved toward a blanket policy of demanding coproduction agreements and technology transfers from foreign deals, hoping to acquire the technology that Ankara says will make its arms industry "self-sufficient." That is why the generous technology sharing arrangements were provided by HQ-9 producer China Precision Machinery Import-Export (CPMIEC) likely made it Ankara's choice over Rayethon's Patriot, whose techonology is protected by US proprietary laws that severely restrict the tech transfers Ankara covers.

But the missile deal reveals a policy which is guiding Turkey to purchase sub-optimal weapons systems without a clear indication that the technology acquired can be retooled by Turkish defense firms into competitive and exportable weapons systems, says Stein. “Across the board in Turkey's weapons purchases, we're seeing performance being sacrificed for coproduction arrangements. What the arms industry needs to do is go for coproduction arrangements in specialized areas, and in others, choose weapons that are going to get the job done best,” said Stein. The EDAM researcher emphasizes China's HQ-9 system is indeed a potent weapons system, but less effective than the American and European competitors, both of which would have been interoperable with existing NATO missile defenses.

Turkey's defense industry is indeed awash in national defense projects. Reading the Turkish press, one might be convinced Turkish defense firms are on the cusp of producing a domestically designed submarine, battle tank, drone and a wide array of other sophisticated weapons. But the submarine will be built almost entirely in Germany, South Korean firms have shared technology for -- and in some cases helped build -- Turkish armor, and the helicopter is largely copied from a decades-old European attack chopper.

The approach of gaining technology from arms deals itself isn't wrongheaded, said Stein, who argues that South Korea's own scrupulous appropriation of US technology through arms deals could be a model for Turkey. The key difference is that South Korea has chosen select weapons systems to develop indigenously for export, whereas “Turkey’s ambitions outstrip the procurement budget,” he said. Observers have widely pointed to Ankara's recent pledges to build its own domestic fighter, or previous announcements that it would produce its own aircraft carrier, as evidence of that overstretch.

Turkey's recent decision to produce the T129, a co-produced version of AgustaWestland's A129 attack helicopter, rather than to acquire Bell's Cobra or Boeing's Apache, is a case in point, said Stein. “The A129 was the inferior choice from a performance standpoint,” he said, but Ankara gambled that it could produce and learn from the former, rather than the latter. “The question is, is missile defense really an example where they can use the technology they gain to have a competitive edge in making weapons in the future? You can't do this with everything and I am betting there are better things they could have chosen.”

Lale Kemal, a journalist who specializes in Turkish military affairs, agreed. “The policy that Turkey can build everything isn't even remotely realistic,” she said, pointing to recent announcements by Ankara that it may agree to have Swedish firm Saab sign on to help produce an indigenous fighter aircraft. At the least, said Kemal, the project would be under immense financial strain, as Turkey is also paying for its fleet of F-35 fighter jets from Lockheed Martin.

Ankara's procurement practices also have other shortcomings, say both Stein and Kemal. “Much of the missile decision may have been a pricing issue,” says Stein, who points out that Ankara might have also chosen a missile system from the pan-European defense company MBDA, which offered both technology sharing and interoperability with NATO systems, but the $3.4 billion Chinese system was far cheaper than MBDA's $4 billion system. “Decisions like [an acceptable] price may simply have been prioritized over the major issue of interoperability, but there's no way to know who made the decision ultimately or why. The process is very opaque.”

It's also hard to understand if the Chinese missile system will truly be less expensive. Kemal argues that the inability of the system to be integrated into NATO's defense network will mean that Turkey will have to get serious about developing its own anti-missile network. That won't be cheap, she says. “At the end of the day you're paying a higher amount because you're not integrated with the sophisticated radar and satellite system provided by NATO,” said Kemal. This year, Ankara said it could launch as many 16 satellites to help augment its missile defense. In August, it spent $103 million to hire ASELSAN, Turkey's largest defense contractor, to develop and build a phased radar array for an air defense frigate currently in the works. In 2011, ASELSAN was paid around $1 billion to develop and deliver low- and medium-altitude air defense systems to the military, the largest domestic arms deal in Turkey history. “That money has already been spent,” said Stein. “The question is, what will the outcome be?”

source: http://www.todayszaman.com/news-330...r-jet-plan-ankara-overreaches-on-defense.html

 

[Falcon29]

Turkey don't succumb to this pressure. I don't genuinely believe NATO considers a Muslim nation as a real part of them. I know turks will disagree with me. But, once you take a tiny step away from their ring of domination you will feel the heat and the propaganda campaign will come out of the ground.

If only Arabic nations, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, and others formed a similar pact between each other it would benefit you in the long run.

Don't listen to what these people project or predict. Their foreseeable future deals with what they want to see and not what would actually happen.

 

[BordoEnes]

Turkey don't succumb to this pressure. I don't genuinely believe NATO considers a Muslim nation as a real part of them. I know turks will disagree with me. But, once you take a tiny step away from their ring of domination you will feel the heat and the propaganda campaign will come out of the ground.

If only Arabic nations, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, and others formed a similar pact between each other it would benefit you in the long run.

Don't listen to what these people project or predict. Their foreseeable future deals with what they want to see and not what would actually happen.

On the contrary, most Turks would propably agree with you regarding them considering us as an "ally". This isnt the first time this happened, infact it happened many times in the past. Whenever Turkish interest collide with US, there is always some sort of sanction or blockade regarding some military deals and contracts (Predators deal for example, or the MLRs in the early 2000).

And we are actually really gratefull for that, because of that we were forced to start our own defence industry and successes has been stacking ever since the Cyprus embargo. Their barking wont chance a single thing, infact they seem to be pushing us more and more to develop and research our own defence industry. They are just giving us more and more reason yet they dont even realize that, what ignorance.

 

[Saithan]

The reason i posted the article was to actually hear constructive criticism to the arguments presented in the article Among these why choice of Augusta was poor or a good decision.

I believe the approach of this stein has some merit, in todays world unnecessary purchase or waste of ressource is something that Turkey cannot afford. And looking all the grand projects that have been kick-started it's more than ever necessary to have transparancy and auditing, but reading the articles in HDN, Zaman etc. just portrays that AKP has several times made it harder to audit things and working towards preventing transparency.

What I don't want to see is AKP running our country into the black hole and then trying to stand out as if they've accomplished anything. All these projects require money, and if we have the ressources then I am all for it, but I wouldn't mind postponing some of the projects for later. A strong and healthy Turkey is much more preferable than one suffering under debt.

The chest-thumbing I leave to those in need of it. All bark but no bite.