T-LORAMIDS Tender | Updates & Discussion

[bsruzm]

I would say Aselsan-Roketsan but once İsmail Demir said 'Aselsan-Roketsan already has such project independently from T-LORAMIDS' so in that case I vote for 'FD-2000'.

 

[BordoEnes]

I would say Aselsan-Roketsan but once İsmail Demir said 'Aselsan-Roketsan already has such project independently from T-LORAMIDS' so in that case I vote for 'FD-2000'.

Which is stupid to be honest. If there is indeed a project going on by Aselsan-Roketsan for a long range air defence system then why the hell would we even opt for any foreign systems. I thought our doctrine was fully independence in terms of military technology and products. Insted of wasting 3.8 Billion Dollars on the FD-2000, i believe we can make a system many times better ourselfs with that money.

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

Which is stupid to be honest. If there is indeed a project going on by Aselsan-Roketsan for a long range air defence system then why the hell would we even opt for any foreign systems. I thought our doctrine was fully independence in terms of military technology and products. Insted of wasting 3.8 Billion Dollars on the FD-2000, i believe we can make a system many times better ourselfs with that money.

Gap Filler. The system has a efficient radar and lock on capability. Thats also phsychological detterence

 

[bsruzm]

Which is stupid to be honest. If there is indeed a project going on by Aselsan-Roketsan for a long range air defence system then why the hell would we even opt for any foreign systems. I thought our doctrine was fully independence in terms of military technology and products. Insted of wasting 3.8 Billion Dollars on the FD-2000, i believe we can make a system many times better ourselfs with that money.

I agree with you but still I believe that they must have some good reasons and most likely it isn't technological but strategical.

''Chinese China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp (CPMIEC) had won the bid in 2013 for the air defense competition. The contract is still to be signed.
“China made an appropriate bid. We would certainly welcome a proposal that would 'enrich' the offer,” Erdogan told reporters Tuesday.
China, like the US and Europe had declined to transfer technology as part of its bid to sell FD-2000 air defense system to Turkey in June.
As a result Turkey may not be able to operate the FD-2000, the export version of the Chinese HQ-9 system effectively, Ismail Demir, head of Turkey's Under-secretariat for Defense Industries had said in June this year.
He said that Turkey had not yet made a decision regarding the purchase of the Chinese air defense system, because Beijing has not yet agreed to transfer the weapon's technology to Istanbul.''

I couldn't find anything, what is the last situation of T-LORAMIDS now?
Does anybody have an idea when would that FD-2000 system be fully operational for example?

 

[BordoEnes]

Gap Filler. The system has a efficient radar and lock on capability. Thats also phsychological detterence

Hardly. The decision for the T-LORAMIDS winner has been delayed about five times. By the time we actually come to terms with the Chinese and the development and production of a localized FD-2000 starts we would already be several years further. Within the timeframe of the start of the T-LORAMIDS project till the present we already started developing HISAR-A and HISAR-O respectivly, which given the rate of development and expected date of production seems like the better gap filler. So at this point there is no need to buy any foreign system, we already are past that point. We are talking about 3.8 billion dollar here, which is more then most countries annual spending on military.

I agree with you but still I believe that they must have some good reasons and most likely it isn't technological but strategical.

''Chinese China Precision Machinery Import-Export Corp (CPMIEC) had won the bid in 2013 for the air defense competition. The contract is still to be signed.
“China made an appropriate bid. We would certainly welcome a proposal that would 'enrich' the offer,” Erdogan told reporters Tuesday.
China, like the US and Europe had declined to transfer technology as part of its bid to sell FD-2000 air defense system to Turkey in June.
As a result Turkey may not be able to operate the FD-2000, the export version of the Chinese HQ-9 system effectively, Ismail Demir, head of Turkey's Under-secretariat for Defense Industries had said in June this year.
He said that Turkey had not yet made a decision regarding the purchase of the Chinese air defense system, because Beijing has not yet agreed to transfer the weapon's technology to Istanbul.''

I couldn't find anything, what is the last situation of T-LORAMIDS now?
Does anybody have an idea when would that FD-2000 system be fully operational for example?

Actually the problem with the Chinese relates to their empty promise of transfer of technology. The only reason why the Chinese FD-2000 was chosen the winner was A) because it was dirt cheap and B) because they offered transfer of technology. Considering that they now refuse to provide the ladder, i highly doubt they will receive the contract. The final decision will come after Erdogan's visit to China no doubt.

 

[cabatli_53]

At the beggining, SSM didn't think The capabilities of Aselsan/Roketsan will be enough to develop a sufficient surface to air missiles so All those projects were prepared in accordance with "direct order/cooperation" project model. In times those projects were issued,

LALADMIS cancelled for Hisar-A
MALADMIS cancelled for Hisar-O

but Aselsan couldn't convince SSM to commence indigenous development of LORAMIDS. Although they are planning to improve industrial infrastructure of Turkish missile industry thanks to promised technology to be received with contactor the signitures will be signed, 12 batteries of surface to air missiles are too much to call that procurement as stop gap until planned indigenous LORAMIDS+ aka Hisar-U developed. What Aselsan is planning to develop is something like mixture of PAC-3 and THAAD like capabilities based on Hisar-O to be added into same missile system which is going to be used for main Land and Naval based assets for long range aerial engagement. It is also promised more advanced egagement capabilities than current Chinese systems against ballistic missiles but SSM's roadway is a bit different than Aselsan's totally indigenous project model so In additions to ToT, SSM wants more independance over Chinese systems. With this way, They are planning to improve not only own industrial capabilities but also capabilities of received missile system to accelerate the schedule of Hisar-U. The final product to be shaped over FD-2000 lessons will be considered as way advanced and capable indigenous one thanks to Turkish expertise and subcomponent capabilities which will make it on par+ with European and USA equivalents. With this way, SSM is planning to hunt two bird with one stone but What some articles mentioned as "China rejuse ToT" like statements are about it. China agrees to release the technology of their systems but most probably refuse the independent actions of Turkish engineers over their missiles to develop Hisar-U.

 

[bsruzm]

At the beggining, SSM didn't think The capabilities of Aselsan/Roketsan will be enough to develop a sufficient surface to air missiles so All those projects were prepared in accordance with "direct order/cooperation" project model. In times those projects were issued,

LALADMIS cancelled for Hisar-A
MALADMIS cancelled for Hisar-O

but Aselsan couldn't convince SSM to commence indigenous development of LORAMIDS. Although they are planning to improve industrial infrastructure of Turkish missile industry thanks to promised technology to be received with contactor the signitures will be signed, 12 batteries of surface to air missiles are too much to call that procurement as stop gap until planned indigenous LORAMIDS+ aka Hisar-U developed Despite SSM underlines that There is already an ongoing project for domestic variant. What Aselsan is planning to develop is something like mixture of PAC-3 and THAAD like capabilities to be added into same missile system which is going to be used for main Land and Naval based assets for long range aerial engagement. It is also promised more advanced egagement capabilities against ballistic missiles than current Chinese systems but SSM's roadway is a bit different than Aselsan's totally indigenous project model so In additions to ToT, SSM wants more independance over Chinese systems. With this way, They are planning to improve not only own industry capabilities but also capabilities of available missile platform to accelerate the schedule of Hisar-U. The final product to be shaped over FD-2000 lessons will be considered as way advanced and capable indigenous one thanks to Turkish expertise and subcomponent capabilities which will make it on par+ with European and USA equivalents. With this way, SSM is planning to hunt two bird with one stone but What some articles mentioned as "China rejuse ToT" like statements are about it. China agrees to release the technology of their systems but most probably refuse the independent actions of Turkish engineers over their missiles to develop Hisar-U.

If an agreement reached between Turkey and China today, when would FD-2000 be fully operational and in service any idea?

 

[cabatli_53]

If an agreement reached between Turkey and China today, when would FD-2000 be fully operational and in service any idea?

If I remember that correctly, China promised 2 years of induction schedule for first systems in times counted after signiture ceremony.

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

Syrian Scud Unveils Turk Vulnerabilities

ANKARA, Turkey — On the morning of March 25, a Russian-made Syrian scud missile estimated to have been fired from a range of 180 kilometers exploded near the Reyhanli district in Turkey's southernmost city of Hatay, neighboring Syria.

The projectile left a 15-meter-wide crater in a stream bed, broke the windows of the surrounding houses, caused the roof of a building in the nearby military unit to collapse, damaged two military vehicles and inflicted minor injuries on five Turkish civilians.

The Syrian scud luckily did not cause any casualties on Turkish soil but left behind pressing questions: Why did the NATO Patriot systems stationed in southern Turkey not intercept the Syrian missile? How vulnerable is Turkey to tactical missile threats from its unstable neighbors to the south?

The Turkish military headquarters said that Turkish howitzers immediately retaliated and shelled unspecified Syrian targets. Military officials told Defense News the Syrian missile was probably fired from a Russian naval base in Tartus to target anti-regime rebels who have been fighting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad's forces since 2011.

Germany, the Netherlands and the United States currently provide two Patriot batteries each, located in the provinces of Kahramanmaraş, Adana and Gaziantep.

A Feb. 20, 2013, Defense News story said the six Patriot anti-missile batteries deployed in Turkey ostensibly to protect Turkish airspace from a potential missile strike from neighboring Syria, in fact, had the primary purpose of protecting a radar that would track Iranian missile launches, instead of protecting the Turkish civilian population or military bases.

The story quoted officials and analysts as saying the mini missile defense architecture actually provided the pretext to guard a US-owned, NATO-assigned radar deployed since 2012 in Turkey in the event hostilities break out with Iran. NATO officials vehemently denied the story.

Slightly over two years later, a Turkish military official said the Syrian scud was not intercepted because it fell in an area outside the radar range of Patriot batteries in Turkey.

"Patriots cannot provide a blanket protection to vast lands in their vicinity," the official said. "They can only protect areas in their immediate vicinity."

Sitki Egeli, a missile defense expert, agrees. He said the Patriots are not designed to protect large swathes of land; wherever they are deployed, they can only protect areas in their near vicinity. And, Egeli said, the X-band NATO radar in Kurecik (in eastern Turkey) is designed not to intercept a Syrian scud coming from 180 kilometers away but (probably) an Iranian ballistic missile with a range of 2,000 kilometers.

Aware of its vulnerability to such missile attacks, Turkey in 2007 designed a program to indigenously develop and produce short- and medium-altitude air defense systems. Ankara chose a partnership of military specialist Aselsan and missile maker Roketsan, both government-controlled companies.

In October 2013, Aselsan completed the test launch of its first domestically developed and manufactured low-altitude air defense missile, Hisar-A, and set off to work on Hisar-O, the medium-altitude system.

Aselsan, the prime contractor, is developing all radar, fire control, command, control and communication systems for the program while Roketsan is acting as the executive subcontractor. Ideally, the Hisar-A system, which will provide protection against all kinds of airborne targets thanks to its vertical launch capability, will enter the Turkish military inventory in 2017, but industry sources said the program faces delays due to technical snags.

When combined and made interoperable, Hisar-A and Hisar-O will destroy threats at low-medium altitude. The program involves the development and production of two types of ground systems, self-propelled armored vehicle-mounted air defense missile systems, and the missile.

Hisar-A is an air defense missile system mounted on a self-propelled armored vehicle and can be fully autonomous by means of 3D radar, electro-optic system, command, control and fire control.

Hisar-O is composed of one battalion headquarters and headquarters company and three batteries, each of which has a sufficient amount of launchers, missiles, radars, command, control and communication systems and other support equipment.

Email: bbekdil@defensenews.com

 

[sehnaz]

If I remember that correctly, China promised 2 years of induction schedule for first systems in times counted after signiture ceremony.

Sir what is the status of. The deal with China

 

[what]

Türkiye Çin füzesi almaktan vazgeçti - CNN TÜRK

 

[bsruzm]

Türkiye Çin füzesi almaktan vazgeçti - CNN TÜRK

I think, it is true. I felt it watching that:

Listen Aselsan-Roketsan managers carefully and check their attitude towards İsmail Demir then İsmail Demir's body language, they 'Aselsan-Roketsan' were like 'no need to spend that amount of money on a foreign system, we can do it, we gained a lot within years of work'.

''Reuters'a konuşan bir yetkili, Türkiye'nin kendi füze programını kurmayı planladığını açıkladı. Başbakanlık yetkilisi Çin'in kazandığı ihalenin de iptal edildiğini söyledi.''

You call me crazy...

Now the question is, when will it be fully operational? We are in times of need.

 

[Oublious]

This means they have to settle Cafrad radar project with SAM project. This is a big project so i am curious about the end.

 

[Bismarck]

You habe made your decision?

 

[Hurshid Celebi]

Seems like

Local system up to 2020-2023 with Aselsan , Roketsan and Ayesas and MBDA ;

and urgent gap filling with 6 batteries Raytheon PAC 3 +