T-LORAMIDS Tender | Updates & Discussion

[T-123456]

I don't think US would allow China to assess the NATO system. US would pull out of turkey before this happens. Which is probably underway now.

US pull out?
We are not Iraq,Afghanistan to pull out of.
If the US is upset by this,they should think about Greeces S-300 first.
The Chinese offer must have been the best offer,thats it.

 

[ozi2000]

THERE MUST BE SOME SORT OF TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER IF IT IS GOING TO BE PRODUCED IN TURKEY NO DOUBT IN THAT.

ALSO Date: 2010 LISTEN WHAT Michele Lastella, head of communications at the Italy branch of MBDA SAYS
ECONOMY - MBDA relies on hi-tech transfer to win Turkish defense deal

MBDA relies on hi-tech transfer to win Turkish defense deal

GENOA - Hürriyet Daily News | 12/6/2010 12:00:00 AM | ÜMİT ENGİNSOY

Competing with rivals from the United States, Russia and China for Turkey's multibillion-dollar national air defense system contract, the mainly Italian-French missile maker Eurosam, maker of the SAMP/T, wants to jointly develop and manufacture the defensive weapon system with Turkish companies

Representatives of European missile maker Eurosam said they are relying on the consortium's ability to offer high technology transfer rates and a joint development capability with Ankara to win a major Turkish air defense contract.

"There is a genuine and sincere friendship between Italy and Turkey. We are offering a great rate of technology transfer, we can jointly design systems, we can develop systems and we can jointly export them," said Michele Lastella, head of communications at the Italy branch of MBDA, an Italian member company of the Eurosam consortium, during a briefing in Rome late last week.

ALSO LISTEN WHAT Sergio Cavicchi, vice president and exports and sales director at MBDA SAYS

"We are ready to meet the customer's requirements at the most advanced level. If the others cannot do this, it is not our matter," said Sergio Cavicchi, vice president and exports and sales director at MBDA.


NOW I AM ASKING ALL
IF MBDA OFFERING GREAT ToT PLUS CO-DEVELOPMENT. AND STILL CHINA GETS IT ...WOULD IT BE LESS THAN EUROSAM

ECONOMY - MBDA relies on hi-tech transfer to win Turkish defense deal




JANES

Nick de Larrinaga, Europe Editor of IHS Jane's Defense Weekly, said the Chinese bid was long understood to have 'massively undercut other bidders'. He said Western competitors were also offering wide involvement for Turkish industry.

"The decision...is undoubtedly a surprise," he said.

"Meanwhile IHS Jane's understood that the Franco/Italian Eurosam SAMP/T was preferred by many in the Turkish Armed Forces from a capability point of view...although it was also believed to be the most expensive of all the bids."

 

[Beast]

Nobody is upset,as with all decisions made by the government,we try to understand why it was made.
We want to know what to expect from either side(NATO/US)and China((what deal was made).

Indeed there is,

http://www.defence.pk/forums/turkey...-system-updates-discussion-7.html#post4815277

Then they can only think cheap price is the reason for such deal to happen. Implying all the while Turkey is led by a group of moron leadership... Is that the truth? I doubt so. Turkey is not even an improvished country, fund is not a problem. Obvious, HQ-9 indeed has it merit in quality to win the deal.

Plus China has not order any S-300 PMU2 for long time. And China never shown interest on S-400. All the while is baseless rumour floating around. I dare to say Chinese SAM is even more advance than what the best Russian can offer.

 

[Beast]

THERE MUST BE SOME SORT OF TECHNOLOGY TRANSFER IF IT IS GOING TO BE PRODUCED IN TURKEY NO DOUBT IN THAT.

ALSO Date: 2010 LISTEN WHAT Michele Lastella, head of communications at the Italy branch of MBDA SAYS
ECONOMY - MBDA relies on hi-tech transfer to win Turkish defense deal

MBDA relies on hi-tech transfer to win Turkish defense deal

GENOA - Hürriyet Daily News | 12/6/2010 12:00:00 AM | ÜMİT ENGİNSOY

Competing with rivals from the United States, Russia and China for Turkey's multibillion-dollar national air defense system contract, the mainly Italian-French missile maker Eurosam, maker of the SAMP/T, wants to jointly develop and manufacture the defensive weapon system with Turkish companies

Representatives of European missile maker Eurosam said they are relying on the consortium's ability to offer high technology transfer rates and a joint development capability with Ankara to win a major Turkish air defense contract.

"There is a genuine and sincere friendship between Italy and Turkey. We are offering a great rate of technology transfer, we can jointly design systems, we can develop systems and we can jointly export them," said Michele Lastella, head of communications at the Italy branch of MBDA, an Italian member company of the Eurosam consortium, during a briefing in Rome late last week.

ALSO LISTEN WHAT Sergio Cavicchi, vice president and exports and sales director at MBDA SAYS

"We are ready to meet the customer's requirements at the most advanced level. If the others cannot do this, it is not our matter," said Sergio Cavicchi, vice president and exports and sales director at MBDA.


NOW I AM ASKING ALL
IF MBDA OFFERING GREAT ToT PLUS CO-DEVELOPMENT. AND STILL CHINA GETS IT ...WOULD IT BE LESS THAN EUROSAM

ECONOMY - MBDA relies on hi-tech transfer to win Turkish defense deal

The only conclusion is HQ-9 SAM is superior. Probably almost impossible to jam once target acquire and fire. I dont think Turkey will compromise their defense just a sake of saving $1billion and complicating its existing defense network since its not NATO compatible. Turkey is not even impoverish. They have the money.

 

[T-123456]

I was wondering if someone heard/seen comments/statements from NATO/US/Europe on the Turkish decision to go for the HQ-9 Air Defence System from China?

 

[atatwolf]

Turkey joining EU would mean Turkey giving up part of its soveignity. Soveignity is holy for Turks. Turks are one of the few in the history who never lost it, we will never give it up and that is why we will never join EU. We are not Greece who gives up soveignity for free-ride. That whole EU-Turkey talks are just politics. Turkish people would never accept a French, German, Brit telling them what to do. Not only for integrity but also historical reasons.

 

[-SINAN-]

Plus China has not order any S-300 PMU2 for long time. And China never shown interest on S-400. All the while is baseless rumour floating around. I dare to say Chinese SAM is even more advance than what the best Russian can offer.

The only conclusion is HQ-9 SAM is superior.

Nobody will take you into consideration if you keep this "product X" is better than "product Y" attitude without showing any technical data or source.

 

[Beast]

Nobody will take you into consideration if you keep this "product X" is better than "product Y" attitude without showing any technical data or source.

Its not attitude. Its basic logic sense.

First, Turkey is not impoverish country. Clearly money is not a big problem for them if they want to acquire a quality weapon. In fact, Turkey is the biggest military weapon buyer in NATO. I seriously doubt Turkey for sake of saving only 1billion dollars compromising its own defense by choosing an inferior product out of the 4. That will most likely eliminate cheap price tag reason.

Second, ToT transfer is not solely only by HQ-9 available to Turkish. ozi2000 article clearly indicates MDBA is willing to ToT if Turkish choose Aster 30 system for its long range air defense. This again eliminate another possibilities HQ-9 wins becos it is the only one willing to ToT.

Third, Turkish military probably want to acquire a lesser known weapon not acquire by its rival which possess both S-300 and Patriot so that it will be difficult to counter in times of war. But the Turkish still has a choice of getting MDBA Aster 30 or HQ-9 since no other countries hostile to Turkey acquire this weapon. Then they choose HQ-9 out of the two.

Fourth, why would Turkish military complicate themselves by choosing a non NATO weapon that will have a hard time intergrating into its existing military network mostly based on NATO wired system? They could have gone the easy route, getting Aster 30 and get everything wired with their NATO doctrine and system. But no, they didn't. Unless that weapon proves itself to be superior in their evaluation that impress the Turkish military high level so much that they are willing to accept the complication by acquiring a superior weapon that can sure protect Turkish airspace.

Final conclusion, HQ-9 is superior and has its merit which is why Turkey military decide to opt it.

 

[T-123456]

Its not attitude. Its basic logic sense.

First, Turkey is not impoverish country. Clearly money is not a big problem for them if they want to acquire a quality weapon. In fact, Turkey is the biggest military weapon buyer in NATO. I seriously doubt Turkey for sake of only 1billion dollars compromising its own defense by choosing an inferior product out of the 4. That will most likely eliminate cheap price tag reason.

Second, ToT transfer is not solely only by HQ-9 available to Turkish. ozi2000 article clearly indicates MDBA is willing to ToT if Turkish choose Aster 30 system for its long range air defense. This again eliminate another possibilities HQ-9 wins becos it is the only one willing to ToT.

Third, Turkish military probably want to acquire a lesser known weapon not acquire by its rival which possess both S-300 and Patriot so that it will be difficult to counter in times of war. But the Turkish still has a choice of getting MDBA Aster 30 or HQ-9 since no other countries hostile to Turkey acquire this weapon. Then they choose HQ-9 out of the two.

Fourth, why would Turkish military complicate themselves by choosing a non NATO weapon that will have a hard time intergrating into its existing military network mostly based on NATO wired system? They could have gone the easy route, getting Aster 30 and get everything wired with their NATO doctrine and system. But no, they didn't. Unless that weapon proves itself to be superior in their evaluation that impress the Turkish military high level so much that they are willing to accept the complication by acquiring a superior weapon that can sure protect Turkish airspace.

Final conclusion, HQ-9 is superior and has its merit which is why Turkey military decide to opt it.

You got some valid there,let see what the future brings.

 

[Beast]

You got some valid there,let see what the future brings.

Thanks for understanding my point. Also you can check out the story of China PLZ-45 SPH sold to Kuwait in 1997. It beats the contender from US and Europe to equip Kuwait army. Kuwait is a rich country sitting on huge oil field. Money was never a problem for them when comes to country security but why would they opt for a cheaper PLZ-45 SPH?

History proves this system is good to win Kuwait army order becos of its good performance. Subsequently, Kuwait army order second batch and soon Saudi also order this SPH from China.

I am sure, HQ-9 will mirror the success of PLZ-45 and proves to the world Turkey buys HQ-9 becos its a good system and not just becos its cheaper out of all contender.

 

[-SINAN-]

Its not attitude. Its basic logic sense.

First, Turkey is not impoverish country. Clearly money is not a big problem for them if they want to acquire a quality weapon. In fact, Turkey is the biggest military weapon buyer in NATO. I seriously doubt Turkey for sake of saving only 1billion dollars compromising its own defense by choosing an inferior product out of the 4. That will most likely eliminate cheap price tag reason.

Second, ToT transfer is not solely only by HQ-9 available to Turkish. ozi2000 article clearly indicates MDBA is willing to ToT if Turkish choose Aster 30 system for its long range air defense. This again eliminate another possibilities HQ-9 wins becos it is the only one willing to ToT.

Third, Turkish military probably want to acquire a lesser known weapon not acquire by its rival which possess both S-300 and Patriot so that it will be difficult to counter in times of war. But the Turkish still has a choice of getting MDBA Aster 30 or HQ-9 since no other countries hostile to Turkey acquire this weapon. Then they choose HQ-9 out of the two.

Fourth, why would Turkish military complicate themselves by choosing a non NATO weapon that will have a hard time intergrating into its existing military network mostly based on NATO wired system? They could have gone the easy route, getting Aster 30 and get everything wired with their NATO doctrine and system. But no, they didn't. Unless that weapon proves itself to be superior in their evaluation that impress the Turkish military high level so much that they are willing to accept the complication by acquiring a superior weapon that can sure protect Turkish airspace.

Final conclusion, HQ-9 is superior and has its merit which is why Turkey military decide to opt it.

What i'm trying to say is you are trying to prove yourself with assumptions. I'm not saying that your assumpions are wrong infact they are logical but they are still assumptions until we have some insight about the contract.

But until than if you want to prove your system, present us facts not assumptions.

 

[cabatli_53]

Its not attitude. Its basic logic sense.

First, Turkey is not impoverish country. Clearly money is not a big problem for them if they want to acquire a quality weapon. In fact, Turkey is the biggest military weapon buyer in NATO. I seriously doubt Turkey for sake of saving only 1billion dollars compromising its own defense by choosing an inferior product out of the 4. That will most likely eliminate cheap price tag reason.

Second, ToT transfer is not solely only by HQ-9 available to Turkish. ozi2000 article clearly indicates MDBA is willing to ToT if Turkish choose Aster 30 system for its long range air defense. This again eliminate another possibilities HQ-9 wins becos it is the only one willing to ToT.

Third, Turkish military probably want to acquire a lesser known weapon not acquire by its rival which possess both S-300 and Patriot so that it will be difficult to counter in times of war. But the Turkish still has a choice of getting MDBA Aster 30 or HQ-9 since no other countries hostile to Turkey acquire this weapon. Then they choose HQ-9 out of the two.

Fourth, why would Turkish military complicate themselves by choosing a non NATO weapon that will have a hard time intergrating into its existing military network mostly based on NATO wired system? They could have gone the easy route, getting Aster 30 and get everything wired with their NATO doctrine and system. But no, they didn't. Unless that weapon proves itself to be superior in their evaluation that impress the Turkish military high level so much that they are willing to accept the complication by acquiring a superior weapon that can sure protect Turkish airspace.

Final conclusion, HQ-9 is superior and has its merit which is why Turkey military decide to opt it.

As addition, Turkish army is not an easy costumer. Neither politic, nor monetary factors can be a reason to accept an inferior system for nation's protection so There is something, which we don't know, proceeding out of our knowledge. We don't know How China introduced HQ-9 performances, What China offered Turkey along with tech transfer...etc

 

[Beast]

What i'm trying to say is you are trying to prove yourself with assumptions. I'm not saying that your assumpions are wrong infact they are logical but they are still assumptions until we have some insight about the contract.

But until than if you want to prove your system, present us facts not assumptions.

Real hard facts is difficult to get just from internet since China is quite secretive of its military equipment and only real data is available to evaluator and potential customers.

From wiki, both Aster 30 and HQ-9 are very similar in performance except HQ-9 operational range will prove far superior to Aster 30. I am not trying to rebuke your enquiry but its will be hard to make a justification just based on this non conclusive data on net.

 

[atatwolf]

As addition, Turkish army is not an easy costumer. Neither politic, nor monetary factors can be a reason to accept an inferior system for nation's protection so There is something, which we don't know, proceeding out of our knowledge. We don't know How China introduced HQ-9 performances, What China offered Turkey along with tech transfer...etc

If you want to understand the future, know the past.

Just look at what Turkey did with T-129 from Italy, Altay from Korrea, Firtina Howitzer, etc. Turkish army buys arms including the tech transfer and then optimizes and upgrades. They probably will do the same with HQ-9.

Anyway, I still don't understand why Turkey didn't go for top-self but instead chose cheap junk. I guess Turkey doesn't see immediate threat. There is only Russia in the neighborhood who is a worthy enemy and we are on very good terms with them.

Another thing, I don't think it is a good thing to fully relly on NATO. They can double cross us and the same counts for US. They can double cross us too. So we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket but differsify and that is exactly what we are doing.

 

[Beast]

If you want to understand the future, know the past.

Just look at what Turkey did with T-129 from Italy, Altay from Korrea, Firtina Howitzer, etc. Turkish army buys arms including the tech transfer and then optimizes and upgrades. They probably will do the same with HQ-9.

Anyway, I still don't understand why Turkey didn't go for top-self but instead chose cheap junk. I guess Turkey doesn't see immediate threat. There is only Russia in the neighborhood who is a worthy enemy and we are on very good terms with them.

Another thing, I don't think it is a good thing to fully relly on NATO. They can double cross us and the same counts for US. They can double cross us too. So we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket but differsify and that is exactly what we are doing.

So much of your cheap comment. By insulting the Turkish top level people for opting HQ-9, you are also insulting the judgement of Turkish people who choose this leadership. Only few words can describe you, is jealousy that cloud your judgement of China.