T-129 - Pakistan signs biggest ever defence exports deal of Turkish history

[Signalian]

You can check wikipedia for ceilings both Mi-24 and Mi-28 have lower figures than T-129, AH-1Z and WZ-10.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-28
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-24#Flight_characteristics

Mi-28 high altitude performance was one of it's drawbacks highlighted in the Afghan war. Mi-35 addresses this issue with weight reductions (notably smaller wings and fixed landing gear), better main rotor, X shaped tail rotor (better survivability for hits) and optimization in power plant for hot and high conditions.

Wikipedia ceiling for Mi-24 is 4900meter and below link shows 5700m for Mi-35

http://www.military-today.com/helicopters/mi_35m.htm
"The Mi-35M has a number of improvements. It differs from the basic model by main rotor system of the Mi-28 and X-shape tail rotor. Main rotor's fiberglass blades have new aerodynamic profile. These are lighter but stronger due to titanium details. Helicopter also has upgraded turboshaft engines. Flight performance such as altitude and maneuverability improved due to these changes. Stub wings were shortened in order to reduce weight. Wings have a number of hardpoints for weapons and other uses.
Electronic core of the helicopter underwent fundamental modifications. A whole spectrum of new electronic systems were adopted in the cockpit. The Mi-35M is fitted with upgraded avionics and improved sensor package, including night vision system. Helicopter is also fitted with electro-optical rangefinder/targeting system with thermal imaging guidance channel, satellite positioning and navigation system, electronic multifunction displays, onboard computer and new generation jam-proof communications equipment."

Empty weight Mi24: 8.4 T
Empty weight Mi35: 8.35 T
Empty weight Mi28: 7.89 T

max take off weight Mi24: 11.5 T
max take off weight Mi35: 12 T
max take off weight Mi28: 11.7 T

service ceiling for all: 5000 meters.

1. Mi24 and Mi35 weights are almost same, so there is no difference at high altitude for both, is there?
2.Mi-28 is lighter in empty weight and comparable in max take off weight, having same service ceiling. so where is Mi-28 drawback in weight or altitude?

 

[Shabi1]

Empty weight Mi24: 8.4 T
Empty weight Mi35: 8.35 T
Empty weight Mi28: 7.89 T

max take off weight Mi24: 11.5 T
max take off weight Mi35: 12 T
max take off weight Mi28: 11.7 T

service ceiling for all: 5000 meters.

1. Mi24 and Mi35 weights are almost same, so there is no difference at high altitude for both, is there?
2.Mi-28 is lighter in empty weight and comparable in max take off weight, having same service ceiling. so where is Mi-28 drawback in weight or altitude?

I've shared links with you and they are showing different values. There are variants of the Mi-35 as well. The Mi-35M which Pakistan bought entered production in 2005. India also operates a Mi-25 (export Mi-24)/35 mix but theirs are older variants, their Mi-25s started arriving in 1984 and Mi-35s arrived 1990-95.

Even if you do a picture search you can see helicopters with Mi-35 labeling but retaining the same large wing and retractable landing gear features of the Mi-24. So it's a case of versions of the same model.
https://www.defencereviewasia.com/articles/74/INDIAN-ATTACK-HELICOPTER-PROGRAMMES-POWER-UP
"Certainly these elderly craft from the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant are showing their age, and the conflict in Kargil in 1999 revealed their shortcomings in terms of high-altitude performance. Weighing in at 8,500kg empty and possessing a compartment that can accommodate eight troops or four stretchers, the Mi-35 is large and cumbersome. A ceiling of 4,500m, as well as this lack of manoeuvrability, is a severe disadvantage in India’s unique topography. Hemmed in to the north by the Himalaya Mountains soaring in places more than 8,000m above sea level, and spanning desert plains in the west that reach a scorching 50ºC, such diverse geography places impositions on helicopter performance. The extremes of summer and winter exacerbate the amount of lift a helicopter can achieve."

 

[Signalian]

I've shared links with you and they are showing different values. There are variants of the Mi-35 as well. The Mi-35M which Pakistan bought entered production in 2005. India also operates a Mi-25 (export Mi-24)/35 mix but theirs are older variants, their Mi-25s started arriving in 1984 and Mi-35s arrived 1990-95.

Even if you do a picture search you can see helicopters with Mi-35 labeling but retaining the same large wing and retractable landing gear features of the Mi-24. So it's a case of versions of the same model.
https://www.defencereviewasia.com/articles/74/INDIAN-ATTACK-HELICOPTER-PROGRAMMES-POWER-UP
"Certainly these elderly craft from the Mil Moscow Helicopter Plant are showing their age, and the conflict in Kargil in 1999 revealed their shortcomings in terms of high-altitude performance. Weighing in at 8,500kg empty and possessing a compartment that can accommodate eight troops or four stretchers, the Mi-35 is large and cumbersome. A ceiling of 4,500m, as well as this lack of manoeuvrability, is a severe disadvantage in India’s unique topography. Hemmed in to the north by the Himalaya Mountains soaring in places more than 8,000m above sea level, and spanning desert plains in the west that reach a scorching 50ºC, such diverse geography places impositions on helicopter performance. The extremes of summer and winter exacerbate the amount of lift a helicopter can achieve."

3 different values of altitude.

The above post shows 4500m.
Most links show 5000.
one link you posted show 5700m.

any second link for 5700m? as majority of links show 5000m

 

[Shabi1]

3 different values of altitude.

The above post shows 4500m.
Most links show 5000.
one link you posted show 5700m.

any second link for 5700m? as majority of links show 5000m

You can believe whichever one you like.

Seems various MI-35 variants out there and they have different performance specs. Pakistan having received the most latest builds will have the most update spec version.

Ceiling keeps changing with information years. You can search 2017/18 links.

Here are three links for 5400m.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mi-35m-hind-e/
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/Mi-35M_a000751002.aspx
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/08/07/mi-35m-hind-e-attack-helicopters-russia/

Another one for 5700m, dated Jan 2017. As per it the MI-35P is 4500m and the Mi-35M is 5700m
http://www.airrecognition.com/index...wing-platforms-for-foreign-market-part-1.html

 

[Signalian]

You can believe whichever one you like. Seems various MI-35 variants out there and they have different performance specs
Here are three links for 5400m.
https://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/mi-35m-hind-e/
http://www.deagel.com/Combat-Aircraft/Mi-35M_a000751002.aspx
https://thaimilitaryandasianregion.wordpress.com/2016/08/07/mi-35m-hind-e-attack-helicopters-russia/

Operationally speaking does a difference of 400m between 5000m and 5400m make a huge difference for Mi-24/35 variants ?

In the meanwhile Let me jot down altitudes of others also:
AH-1F 4500m
AH-1Z 6000m +
T-129 6100m

Mi-35M 5000m or 5400m
Mi-35 comes short of AH-1Z and T-129. AH-1F is no way near.

Mi-17 6000m

Highest peak in swat is 6000m, but PA did ops on Malam Jaba which has altitude of 2800m.

Now the highest peak in KPK is roughly 7500m at Chitral, however PA has been using AH-1F along and near-abouts of Durand line, which means that altitude of 4500m of AH-1F is good enough?

 

[Shabi1]

Operationally speaking does a difference of 400m between 5000m and 5400m make a huge difference for Mi-24/35 variants ?

In the meanwhile Let me jot down altitudes of others also:
AH-1F 4500m
AH-1Z 6000m +
T-129 6100m

Mi-35M 5000m or 5400m
Mi-35 comes short of AH-1Z and T-129. AH-1F is no way near.

Mi-17 6000m

Highest peak in swat is 6000m, but PA did ops on Malam Jaba which has altitude of 2800m.

Now the highest peak in KPK is roughly 7500m at Chitral, however PA has been using AH-1F along and near-abouts of Durand line, which means that altitude of 4500m of AH-1F is good enough?

And what is your objective here? Im lost.

I said Mi-28 was overkill and has lower ceiling than the WZ-10, T-129 and AH-1Z. The T-129 and AH-1Z are good for Pakistan's needs. You dragged it to it's same as Mi-24 and started Mi-35 compared to Mi-24. I explained why the Mi-35 was better than Mi-24 with sources.

The calculations of height in specs are usually with combat load. So you can stretch them for individual missions but will have to make sacrifices by stripping/reducing them of systems, fuel or weapon loads. It's good thinking on PA planning that they are procuring platforms where they wont have to compromise and choosing the best possible options they can get. Even if height is an issue PA will get the flexibility of multiple gunship options according to terrain.

I don't see any argument.

 

[Signalian]

And what is your objective here? Im lost.

I said Mi-28 was overkill and has lower ceiling than the WZ-10, T-129 and AH-1Z. The T-129 and AH-1Z are good for Pakistan's needs. You dragged it to it's same as Mi-24 and started Mi-35 compared to Mi-24. I explained why the Mi-35 was better than Mi-24 with sources.

The calculations of height in specs are usually with combat load. So you can stretch them for individual missions but will have to make sacrifices by stripping/reducing them of systems, fuel or weapon loads. It's good thinking on PA planning that they are procuring platforms where they wont have to compromise and choosing the best possible options they can get. Even if height is an issue PA will get the flexibility of multiple gunship options according to terrain.

I don't see any argument.

There wasn't any argument, i have extracted the information i wanted.

 

[airmarshal]

Times of Islamabad I believe is a factory of fake news. No such contract was signed it seems.

 

[RIP Pak LAW]

Times of Islamabad I believe is a factory of fake news. No such contract was signed it seems.

Return my 'like' to the topic now :X

 

[KapitaanAli]

Times of Islamabad I believe is a factory of fake news. No such contract was signed it seems.

You need talent and some intelligence to print fake news.
Times of Islamabad copy pastes from other reliable and unreliable sources, swap around a couple of paragraphs, and publish.

I'm not exaggerating. They literally copy paste like we copy paste articles here on the forum.

 

[IceCold]

So in the end nothing is signed. All hogwash? Like i said in the start of this thread, someone is going to say at the end no contract is signed and the news is fake.

 

[HAIDER]

So in the end nothing is signed. All hogwash? Like i said in the start of this thread, someone is going to say at the end no contract is signed and the news is fake.

PA adopt Mi35 without any hitch , because they been maintaining this machine in the form of MI series since 60s. And Russian are very good at providing after service support. Product is cheap, tough and easy to maintained. T129 will take a while. It is tough decision to select between Z and T.

 

[Rank]

Useless discussion until officially confirmed by the department of defense

 

[Zarvan]

Useless discussion until officially confirmed by the department of defense

Erodgan is speaking to Turkish Channel TRT right now hopefully would say something about it @cabatli_53

 

[iby32]

What name will PA army give to the helicopters? Any suggestions?

Noora attack helicopter