T-129 for Pakistan one step closer

[Thəorətic Muslim]

Google Fungibility, then continue.

So does it qualify you to make an assumption that CSF funds were used for the purchase of AH-1Z .... ???

Does it qualify you to claim the funds are 100% from Pakistan's treasury?

The amount of ambiguity is astounding.

If you use $100 take your son out to celebrate his birthday, and your mother gives you $100 for you to celebrate her grandson's birthday, who paid for the celebration then? That's the core question here..

Its obvious USA does not accept PKR .... plz don't post such illogical argument

American dollars as in the American government itself, from it's budget...

And for your kind information CSF is our own money which spend as per operational needs from our own defence budget & then get the REIMBURSEMENT which most of the time take TWO year previously there was a time when reimbursement took THREE years .... read about it

The CSF is reimbursement money for Pakistan's cooperation in the WoT. The world knows Pakistan can't hold a constant war with their given financials. That's why Pakistan is getting reimbursed, to a certain degree, so the International Community to not have to march into Pakistan's borders to take out terrorist camps. You're welcome to end your contribution on the WoT and see what happens.

As for how long it takes for Pakistan to get the CSF, ask your politicians and generals about that. As far as the average American is concerned the Taliban are walking around Lahore and Islamabad freely. That's your failure not my problem.

You should be thankful, with the pi$$ poor stupidity of your leadership former President Bush could have said no to the CSF but gave Pakistan a carrot so American troops wouldn't have to clear out FATA.

CSF & IMF loans have all to gather different economic dynamics .... whats your the point here .... ???
BTW these two are part of Pakistan's national Coffer .... what difference does it make to America ....??
And for your kind information CSF is our own money which spend as per operational needs from our own defence budget & then get the REIMBURSEMENT which most of the time take TWO year previously there was a time when reimbursement took THREE years .... read about it
& for FMF .... Approval from Congress is required can you post any such FUNDING approval for AH-1Z sales to PAKISTAN .... ??

It's pretty sad that Pakistan's military budget requires IMF loans, which should be used to improve the economy, but hey... those who can't learn from the history of civilizations who focused more on military than the economy are bound to lose everything.

Again this gem of yours .... what should one make out of it .... ???
literally I am just amazed with the height of ignorance in these two lines .... you have zilch knowledge about the subject & commenting as expert
DO have any idea what the word 'BUDGET' mean .... ??
BTW can you plz post any document or link of news article which can claim that THIS TIME IT WAS PAKISTAN WHO ASKED USA SALE F-16 .... ???
plz go & check it was your president who offered F-16 in his meeting with Pakistani PM who was on his visit to USA upon the invitation of you President .... this time Pakistan Air Force have different priority therefore her resources are committed to HOME GROWN SOLUTION otherwise arranging some additional +400 $ million was not an issue PAF had already committed 250 million for that purchase ....

Any total price of any contract is paid per unit of equipment. The $900 million in F-16s would not have been paid in 1 payment, but rather spread over years.

Sure President Obama offered the F-16s for Pakistan, but we know how that turned out. But if you for 1 second believe the PAF will not bend over backwards to get a few F-16s come on...

"We'll look for other options" -Pakistan
Jordan selling 15 F-16s, few days later...

Even with all the "back-stabbing" by the US, who comes asking for weaponry?

I'm standing my ground that America is paying for these helicopters. The amount of ambiguity involved in the US-Pakistan relationship allows this. If there was no WoT, then these helicopters probably wouldn't have been offered, Pakistan would probably still have been sanctioned for the 98 tests.

For all the hate former President Bush gets, you all should thank him, he brought Pakistan back in the fold while Clinton exiled it...

 

[Arsalan]

Thank you for your insight i hope you can shed some further light on the claims:

It is not classed as stealth helicopter... Still it has many features that reduce its radar signature as compared to its size. This can further improve with Stealth Paint and more composites.

What stealth features? You mentioned RAM (what you called Stealth Paint, not sure what that would be) as a future upgrade so what stealth features the current WZ10 uses?

Heat suppression system plays two important roles.
1) Low heat signature reduces the heat seeking missile to home on.
2) It also reduces the IR to pick up the target for a lock on.

So what heat suppression systems does Z10 uses? any details which make you made these claims?
Plus please note that IR is infra red and the missiles which are IR Homing are in fact "heat-seeking" missiles as they pick up on the IR signature of the machine created by heat and target that. Why you mentioned these two as separate? Can you please elaborate if there is something that i was missing? I mean, it reduces heat signature and it reduces IR, what is the real difference here which make you write this in two points?

What I was referring to in my earlier post is the ability of Z-10 with the quite engines to sneak behind enemy lines without being heard from a long distance. However the engine is still under powered to effectively perform in Hot and High environments.

What?
You suggesting that hot weather need more powerful engine and that is pretty much it? I mean the engine is under powered to perform in hot weather?
Also hoe quite are those quite engines? What mechanism is used to reduce the noise ratio?

T-129 ATAK is designed as a force multiplier hence it requires a multi tier environment.
Z-10 is designed for battlefield interdiction. However it still lacks the firepower because it is still in its early days.

Lacks firepower? HOW!
I just see statements, your thoughts and no a single point till now that you have actually explained with some facts and information. Can you PLEASE CHANGE THAT?

AH-1 is a mature platform and has evolved to the Zulu which is a complete multi-role platform. Over years of development improvements have increased its Air Frame designed life to 10,000 flight hours. Combine this with the armament and you get the high end solution.

Still, WHAT technology on board Zulu will make it top tier? Just the flight hours?

The AH-1 has a lower foot print than the AH-64 hence the US marines opted for it as it suited the kind of operation they were doing. Looking at these requirements many other countries opted for AH-1's as it gave them the best solution for there armed forces. AH-64 was added as a force multiplayer and high-end in varies armed forces of the world.

What exactly would PAA induct still unclear but here are the common scenario.
T-129 in numbers as force projection.
AH-1Z in low numbers used for specialized roles (high value targets). or in Close support for Mi-35.
Z-10 can be developed to provide similar role performed by the AH-64 but it would take time.

Still, cant understand why the distribution. Also you are suggesting 4 different attack helicopters. God help PAA if they opt for this.

IMO Pakistan Army is looking towards the T-129 because it is going to develop at a faster pace and would evolve into a true rival to the AH-1Z in a few years. If Turkey is able to develop 100% of T-129 with domestic products then we could see unrestricted exports and a major rival for the AH-1's which would be replaced by many countries.


AH-1Z is fitted with infrared suppression system which covers engine exhausts, laser and radar warning systems, and radar jammer. It also has smart countermeasures dispenser with missile warning device. Lockheed Martin AN/AAQ-30 TSS Hawkeye EO/IR fire control system, the Thales TopOwl Helmet Mounted Sight and Display System, the AN/ARC-210 Digital Communication System, and the Raytheon AN/APX-100 Identification Friend-or-Foe (IFF) transponder.

The primary navigation system is the CN-1689(V)2/ASN Embedded GPS/INS supported by the AN/ARN-153(V) TACAN System and DF-301E VHF/UHF Direction Finder.

There are systems that are comparative to the above mentioned but would they be available to Pakistan is a question. Even if they are available which platform would be used by Pakistan has to be seen. Z-10 seems that it has enough space to develop in the future and rival the AH-64 but would the manufacturers of those comparative system allow them to be integrated.

Irrelevant, was not my point. Anyway thanks for it, at least it was something that were not merely your thoughts, finally something real!

Sir, Z-10's have been tested and flown for some time by the PAA in various environments. The engine though is good but still needs improvements to operate in Pakistan's North. There is some doubt that the current engine are prone to ice formulation at high altitude.

NORTH? You just mentioned about that the engine is under powered to operate in HOT WEATHER!!

Electronics and avionics issue were there and some other subsystems were being looked at.

Yeah that is what I mentioned!


Kindly DO NOT indulge into wishful thinking and if you do, please do not start quoting those as FACTS. It would be nice if you can mentioned that this is what you THINK and then provide a technical reason for what you THINK that!! It is good for your and the forum if you understand. Otherwise, well it costs me nothing so you can continue but that will be your own loss.

 

[-------]

T129 exhaust heat suppression system, coupled with an engine that was developed with intention of being used on a Stealth Helicopter RAH-66 Comanche.

 

[HRK]

Google Fungibility, then continue.

plz google IDIOCY, IGNORANCE & GRASPING AT STRAWS .... because this what I see in all of your posts in this thread

Does it qualify you to claim the funds are 100% from Pakistan's treasury?

its you who is claiming that America has paid without presenting any single shred of document to support your claim ..... its you who is ignoring the fact that American Government require Congress approval for any Foreign Military Funding .... & rather to prove your claim with any official or even respectable source just posting rambling post ....

This is 'GRASPING AT STRAW' ....

The amount of ambiguity is astounding.

Where is the ambiguity its only in your mind ....

If you use $100 take your son out to celebrate his birthday, and your mother gives you $100 for you to celebrate her grandson's birthday, who paid for the celebration then? That's the core question here..

Even if for sake of argument I accept this analogy of yours than i should thank China first then to Japan & then the list goes on ..... I should be thankful to all of these countries ....

http://ticdata.treasury.gov/Publish/mfh.txt

this is the IDIOCY ...

American dollars as in the American government itself, from it's budget...

Again a hollow claim plz post the budgetary document or any approval for Funding for AH-1Z for Pakistan .....

The CSF is reimbursement money for Pakistan's cooperation in the WoT. The world knows Pakistan can't hold a constant war with their given financials. That's why Pakistan is getting reimbursed, to a certain degree,

Who many other nation can hold constant war ....???

BTW a basic question Why should we spent on NEVER ENDING AMERICAN WAR .... ???

hope you won't give BS that its our responsibility being the member of global community ....

so the International Community to not have to march into Pakistan's borders to take out terrorist camps.

hahaha ... macho mood ... ???

You are talking about the same international community which is hesitant to march into Iraq or in Syria or in Libya to fight a bunch irregulars ... ???

You are talking about the same International Community who is siting in Afghanistan from last 16 years & could not eliminate the 'PROBLEMS' ... ???

who cant even face Drug lords ... ??

Who cant even stop the SPREAD OF SHADOWS which are now knocking at their own doors .... ???


Learn about you own limitations first .....

You're welcome to end your contribution on the WoT and see what happens.

You are welcome to dream anything

BUT for any SENSIBLE PERSON the question of main concern is 'what is the end' ... no country can afford to remain in PERPETUAL STATE OF WAR not even USA ....

Why even after spending trillion $ of resources, million of lives , & nearly two decades situation is more worse than ever before ???

As for how long it takes for Pakistan to get the CSF, ask your politicians and generals about that.

Why ... ???

American Generals & Politicians are non questionable .... ???

Are they Gods .... ???

As far as the average American is concerned the Taliban are walking around Lahore and Islamabad freely. That's your failure not my problem.

again a claim ... without any thing to backup .... ??

if that is the case how does your Consulate & Embassy staff roam free in those cities .... ?? Ever wounder ... ???

Lahore is a Concern of an Average American .... but Kabul, Kandahar, Kunduz & cities of Iraq are of no concern to them where DEFENCE FORCES of their Nation where spending their 'HOLIDAYS' .... ???

It's pretty sad that Pakistan's military budget requires IMF loans, which should be used to improve the economy, but hey...

Again unmatched stupidity ...

DO REALLY YOU THINK THAT IMF give loan to spend on military ... ???

do you have any idea what IMF is what its purpose ... & how does it function

plz visit this link : http://www.imf.org/external/about.htm

& stop making fun of yourself

those who can't learn from the history of civilizations who focused more on military than the economy are bound to lose everything.

Again hollow words .... do you have any idea of Pakistan budgetary allocations ... ???

I can bet you have Zilch knowledge of the subject but you have to make claim all sort of strange claims to avoid the basic question asked earlier .... & you are too weak to accept that you had made a mistake but won't back off won't accept it because of your tiny ego

Any total price of any contract is paid per unit of equipment. The $900 million in F-16s would not have been paid in 1 payment, but rather spread over years.

so what the points .... ???

You are telling something unique which no other one know .... ???

BTW this thing alone does not indicate the mood of PAF regarding the new F-16 .... ???

Sure President Obama offered the F-16s for Pakistan, but we know how that turned out. But if you for 1 second believe the PAF will not bend over backwards to get a few F-16s come on...

"We'll look for other options" -Pakistan
Jordan selling 15 F-16s, few days later...

Has PAF announced that it is not looking for other option .... in fact there are number of statements & news article which indicates some activity in this regards

& for your argument of Jordanian F-16 Why we should not avail the opportunity ???

You know you have zilch knowledge about the subject you have touched in your rambling post ....

Are you aware we are expecting to purchase second batch of Jordanian F-16 in the price range of $ 5-7 million per unit (more or less the same price range as previous) which is the 1/5 to 1/4 of single new JF-17 price ... so it does not make any sense to have 5 or 4 F-16 at the cost of a Single JF-17 and replace F-7 squadron... ??

Is it illogical ... ??

Not at all ... but you had to make an illogical & irrelevant argument ....

Even with all the "back-stabbing" by the US, who comes asking for weaponry?

& you give it free ... ??

I'm standing my ground that America is paying for these helicopters.

Its just stubbornness nothing els ....

Again I will ask you to post any documentary evidence that USA is paying for AH-1Z Helicopters

 

[Thəorətic Muslim]

Again I will ask you to post any documentary evidence that USA is paying for AH-1Z Helicopters

This piss off has gone far enough. I was going to go ranting like you but eh i'm busy atm. (i'll post the rant on monday, if you want).

You tell me where and how Pakistan is paying for these AZs.

And i'll more than rightly apologize for believing the US is funding them. I've always looked at this forum as a place to learn something. And here I am figuring out who's funding these AZs.

 

[Beast]

Pakistan should not by any means rush into T129, as the heli uses US made engine & may be some other more components. US can easily block the supplies & then once again Pakistan will be in trouble. I don't know why WZ10 & specially MI28 is not considered for Pakistan army. There are some people saying that WZ10 is having problems in hot weather, well this is one of the reason what Chinese wanted to know from Pakistan & more reasons are, how WZ performed in war against terrorists & manoeuvring. Chinese are ready to fix the issues as they wanted to know issues with WZ10 & now they know. But seriously why MI28 is not considered for PA, as it is one of the best heavy weight attack helicopter.

Mi-28 technology is obsolete. It may have powerful engine and armour but everything on it is analogue and hardly digital. Night fighting system is poor compare to Z-10 gunship. Z-10 is more up to date and combat interface is excellent. Target search and lock all with just on the HMS.

 

[Quwa]

Given the nature of recent events, I think we can safely say that any delays in regards to a T-129 sale will not be Pakistan's fault this time...

 

[HAIDER]

Now after military coup ....don't know how close is T129 deal. Because Turkish defence industry might see some sanction in coming days. Hope not.

 

[Hakikat ve Hikmet]

Now after military coup ....don't know how close is T129 deal. Because Turkish defence industry might see some sanction in coming days. Hope not.

Sanction for safeguarding democracy? InshaAllah if one door closes, ten more will open. IMHO, development will proceed on a faster pace for these "crypto" traitors, who definitely had done everything possible to harm Turkish interests, will get purged one by one...

 

[HAIDER]

Sanction for safeguarding democracy? InshaAllah if one door closes, ten more will open. IMHO, development will proceed on a faster pace for these "crypto" traitors, who definitely had done everything possible to harm Turkish interests, will get purged one by one...

According to Turkish PM , it was foreign backed coup and named US indirectly , plus extradition request for Gulen. Hope all goes well .

 

[HRK]

This piss off has gone far enough.

Agreed so like a man accept this situation arise because of you

I was going to go ranting like you but eh i'm busy atm. (i'll post the rant on monday, if you want).

remember your own rambling post (posted below as reference) in which you you have adopt every known trick of troll like idiotic analogy, threats, false bravado, taunting, etc. etc .... that was rambling ....

Google Fungibility, then continue.



Does it qualify you to claim the funds are 100% from Pakistan's treasury?

The amount of ambiguity is astounding.

If you use $100 take your son out to celebrate his birthday, and your mother gives you $100 for you to celebrate her grandson's birthday, who paid for the celebration then? That's the core question here..



American dollars as in the American government itself, from it's budget...



The CSF is reimbursement money for Pakistan's cooperation in the WoT. The world knows Pakistan can't hold a constant war with their given financials. That's why Pakistan is getting reimbursed, to a certain degree, so the International Community to not have to march into Pakistan's borders to take out terrorist camps. You're welcome to end your contribution on the WoT and see what happens.

As for how long it takes for Pakistan to get the CSF, ask your politicians and generals about that. As far as the average American is concerned the Taliban are walking around Lahore and Islamabad freely. That's your failure not my problem.

You should be thankful, with the pi$$ poor stupidity of your leadership former President Bush could have said no to the CSF but gave Pakistan a carrot so American troops wouldn't have to clear out FATA.



It's pretty sad that Pakistan's military budget requires IMF loans, which should be used to improve the economy, but hey... those who can't learn from the history of civilizations who focused more on military than the economy are bound to lose everything.



Any total price of any contract is paid per unit of equipment. The $900 million in F-16s would not have been paid in 1 payment, but rather spread over years.

Sure President Obama offered the F-16s for Pakistan, but we know how that turned out. But if you for 1 second believe the PAF will not bend over backwards to get a few F-16s come on...

"We'll look for other options" -Pakistan
Jordan selling 15 F-16s, few days later...

Even with all the "back-stabbing" by the US, who comes asking for weaponry?

I'm standing my ground that America is paying for these helicopters. The amount of ambiguity involved in the US-Pakistan relationship allows this. If there was no WoT, then these helicopters probably wouldn't have been offered, Pakistan would probably still have been sanctioned for the 98 tests.

For all the hate former President Bush gets, you all should thank him, he brought Pakistan back in the fold while Clinton exiled it...

You tell me where and how Pakistan is paying for these AZs.

stop playing games ... either prove USA is paying as your claim ... if this is not the case (which is not) than its obvious Mauritanian are not going to pay for this purchase ... just prove your claim

 

[Oguzhan]

If there won't be a direct contrast in the relations with USA. I don't think that there will be any sanction.

 

[HRK]

Pakistan, Congress hasnt approved anything. And everyone's go .

The helicopters, hellfire missiles etc coming out to ~$958 million, aren't approved for sale by Congress. Neither were the Cutters,

http://www.dsca.mil/tags/pakistan

This clears up everything.

troll will never learn .... & I seriously doubt that you are an American .... don't hide behind US flag .... TROLL ....

https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/weapons/RL31675.pdf

Oh, and you already know this, Pakistan requested an additional 9 AZs in April 2016 to add to their previous request of 15 AZs.

Islamabad ordered its first batch of armed, twin-engine “Zulu Cobras” under that deal in August, as part of a larger US Marine Corps order for 19 AH-1Zs. It furnished an undisclosed number of AH-1Zs powered by GE Aviation T700-401C powerplants for $58 million, likely three.

Bell’s latest $170 million contract modification via US Naval Air Systems Command, announced on 4 April, buys nine more aircraft for Pakistan. That raises Pakistan’s AH-1Z programme value to $228 million.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pakistan-orders-nine-more-bell-ah-1z-gunships-423882/

You should actually be thanking Americans. Only 34% of US debt is held by foreigners, of that 20% is held by China.

Insisting on your stupidity does not make you clever ....

You are a shameless guy who even after number given opportunities failed to prove that US is paying for the deal ....

NOW DON'T QUOTE ME I AM NO MORE INTERESTED IN YOUR TROLLING

 

[Mangus Ortus Novem]

If Pak Turkey want this deal to happen this deal happens.

IT is not only the chopper, it is alighnment between these two critical states in a changing global dynamics. A tight military industrial cooperation is unfolding.

Regardless what happens in Turkey post coup... relationship between the two is bound to grow.

If the allegation of coup being sponsored by abroad are valid... then Turkey must be able to count on Pak support.

Great helicopter, hope PA acquires it in numbers..along with Z10 on a bit heavier side.. the duo will transform PAs fighting abilities.

 

[cabatli_53]

Sad news is,the chopper used to shred innocents by the coup gullen gang in turkey was T-129 ,rumours were one was brought down,don't know weather it was 129 or an ah1?

I think It was AH-1 brother. Everything is under control.
TAI has upgraded production facility in order to deliver average 1-2 T-129 Atak helicopters to Turkish Army. It means Max. 24 T-129 Atak helicopters will be delivered to Turkish Land Forces within 12 months. If a deal signed with Pakistan, I think