T-129 Atak & Turkish Attack Helicopter Programs

[-------]

Yes. But seems some Keyboard Warrior choose otherwise...

Well, it doesn't matter for the most part. Turks should remember that T-129 is still a licensed produced helicopter with large Turkish offset. We should look forward to ATAK-II, which will be fully Turkish.

Under the HOS Helicopter Program to Indigenize;
• 20 mm Cannon,
• Electrical Power Distribution Box,
• Lighting System Components,
• Military Passenger Seat,
• Elastomeric Bearing,
• Mechanical and Electric Power Hydraulic Pump,
• Hydraulic and electromechanical actuators and hydraulic flow control equipment,
• Landing gear

 

[Saithan]

Mangusta is like a Mongoose, though the meaning is used derogatory. All we need to do is let the Atak speak for itself. participating in the Afrin operation opened some doors, and we should be happy for that.

I just hope we can have II ready very soon. like in ½ year.

 

[Cypro]

Possible competitor for ATAK and ATAK II, another A129I Based platform will be developed for Poland. Formerly known as Leonardo AW249. MTOW: 7-8 tonnes

"Leonardo'dan ATAK2 rakibi AW249 atağı. Polonyalı şirket ile anlaşma" http://www.kokpit.aero/leonardo-aw249-polonya

source: https://defence-blog.com/aviation/leonardo-pgz-set-co-develop-combat-helicopter-polish-army.html

Leonardo, PGZ set to co-develop combat helicopter for Polish Army
Leonardo and Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa S.A. are close to formalising an agreement to collaborate on developing a new combat helicopter aiming to meet the Polish Army’s requirement.According to Leonardo’s statement on 11 July, companies signed a Letter of Intent (LoI) that will see the two companies collaborate on the AW249 new combat helicopter.“Leonardo and Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa S.A. (PGZ) signed a Letter of Intent (LoI) that will see the two companies collaborate on the AW249, the only new combat helicopter currently being designed, aiming to meet the Polish Army’s requirement for a new combat helicopter,” – said in the announcement.
The document reinforces PGZ and Leonardo’s common interest in the development and production of a new combat helicopter, created for the needs of the Italian Army, and its Polish variant which is being considered under Poland’s “Kruk” procurement.
Thanks to this collaboration, Poland’s defence industry will have the unique opportunity to participate in a brand new helicopter development programme, while at the same time contributing to the modernization plans of the Polish Armed Forces with a new state-of-the-art platform.
Gian Piero Cutillo, Managing Director of Leonardo Helicopters, said: “This agreement is a significant milestone in the on-going cooperation between Italian and Polish defence industries, involving the latter in the most important ongoing combat helicopter programme. Leonardo, through PZL-Swidnik, has been working with the Polish Ministry of National Defence for years and this agreement opens new avenues of response to the Kruk programme, allowing us to address the future of Polish defence alongside PGZ.”
Jakub Skiba, President of the Management Board of PGZ, said: “Today’s agreement opens up new opportunities for PGZ Companies in the Aviation Domain. Cooperation with Italian industry in the joint development of solutions for our Armed Forces in the “Kruk” programme will allow us to expand our capabilities and involve our companies – in close cooperation with Leonardo’s PZL-Swidnik plant – in the AW249 programme. This high technology programme, led by Leonardo, will be also promoted in further markets”.

The AW249 will feature all the latest technology developments in its market segment and will benefit from the extensive operational expertise logged by Leonardo’s AW129 and the know-how of the Company in this specific helicopter sector.

With a MTOW in the range of 7-8 tonne and useful load in excess of 1800kgs, the AW249 will have speed and endurance that is able to sustain the most difficult close air support and armed escort operations. The AW249 will feature state-of-the-art communication and battlefield management systems; its mission system is able to operate and manage UAVs and features a number of situational awareness aids to reduce pilot workload and increase safety. Additionally, thanks to its advanced technologies and design philosophy, the AW249 will have significant improvements in life-cycle costs over previous generation helicopters.
In addition to a turreted gun, the AW249 will have a flexible weapon system with six wing store stations that can carry a combination of air-to-ground or air-to-air missiles, unguided/guided rockets or external fuel tanks. Two powerful engines will allow for operations in all environmental conditions (cold, hot & high and maritime).

 

[mehmet75]

I guess, we shall change the name designation of ATAK helicopters.. my offers are :
ATAK-1: instead T-129 ; new T-525,
ATAK-2: T-825.

Like T-625 ; first numbers are tonagge..second numbers are how many engines they have, and last numbers are for 5 blade rotors.

Another offer for 10 tonne heavy helicoper that tai will produce ; T1025 (10 tonne, 2 engines,5 blades)

And for the next training light helikopters ; T-214 (f.e.)

 

[Kamil_baku]

Possible competitor for ATAK and ATAK II, another A129I Based platform will be developed for Poland. Formerly known as Leonardo AW249. MTOW: 7-8 tonnes

"Leonardo'dan ATAK2 rakibi AW249 atağı. Polonyalı şirket ile anlaşma" http://www.kokpit.aero/leonardo-aw249-polonya

source: https://defence-blog.com/aviation/leonardo-pgz-set-co-develop-combat-helicopter-polish-army.html

Leonardo, PGZ set to co-develop combat helicopter for Polish Army
Leonardo and Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa S.A. are close to formalising an agreement to collaborate on developing a new combat helicopter aiming to meet the Polish Army’s requirement.According to Leonardo’s statement on 11 July, companies signed a Letter of Intent (LoI) that will see the two companies collaborate on the AW249 new combat helicopter.“Leonardo and Polska Grupa Zbrojeniowa S.A. (PGZ) signed a Letter of Intent (LoI) that will see the two companies collaborate on the AW249, the only new combat helicopter currently being designed, aiming to meet the Polish Army’s requirement for a new combat helicopter,” – said in the announcement.
The document reinforces PGZ and Leonardo’s common interest in the development and production of a new combat helicopter, created for the needs of the Italian Army, and its Polish variant which is being considered under Poland’s “Kruk” procurement.
Thanks to this collaboration, Poland’s defence industry will have the unique opportunity to participate in a brand new helicopter development programme, while at the same time contributing to the modernization plans of the Polish Armed Forces with a new state-of-the-art platform.
Gian Piero Cutillo, Managing Director of Leonardo Helicopters, said: “This agreement is a significant milestone in the on-going cooperation between Italian and Polish defence industries, involving the latter in the most important ongoing combat helicopter programme. Leonardo, through PZL-Swidnik, has been working with the Polish Ministry of National Defence for years and this agreement opens new avenues of response to the Kruk programme, allowing us to address the future of Polish defence alongside PGZ.”
Jakub Skiba, President of the Management Board of PGZ, said: “Today’s agreement opens up new opportunities for PGZ Companies in the Aviation Domain. Cooperation with Italian industry in the joint development of solutions for our Armed Forces in the “Kruk” programme will allow us to expand our capabilities and involve our companies – in close cooperation with Leonardo’s PZL-Swidnik plant – in the AW249 programme. This high technology programme, led by Leonardo, will be also promoted in further markets”.

The AW249 will feature all the latest technology developments in its market segment and will benefit from the extensive operational expertise logged by Leonardo’s AW129 and the know-how of the Company in this specific helicopter sector.

With a MTOW in the range of 7-8 tonne and useful load in excess of 1800kgs, the AW249 will have speed and endurance that is able to sustain the most difficult close air support and armed escort operations. The AW249 will feature state-of-the-art communication and battlefield management systems; its mission system is able to operate and manage UAVs and features a number of situational awareness aids to reduce pilot workload and increase safety. Additionally, thanks to its advanced technologies and design philosophy, the AW249 will have significant improvements in life-cycle costs over previous generation helicopters.
In addition to a turreted gun, the AW249 will have a flexible weapon system with six wing store stations that can carry a combination of air-to-ground or air-to-air missiles, unguided/guided rockets or external fuel tanks. Two powerful engines will allow for operations in all environmental conditions (cold, hot & high and maritime).

The reason they develop Atak 2 is to add MMW radar on it, which will be a competitor to Longbow Apache..
Even though Leonardo is very good in radars, it will take another 6-7 years for them to make millimeter wave radar..
so my conclusion is, its not a real competitor

 

[kartal1]

The reason they develop Atak 2 is to add MMW radar on it, which will be a competitor to Longbow Apache..
Even though Leonardo is very good in radars, it will take another 6-7 years for them to make millimeter wave radar..
so my conclusion is, its not a real competitor

Not only. The payload will also be bigger. We can add MILDAR on T129 Atak if we want. The problem is that you have to sacrifice one hard point but for COIN operations its more than enough while knowing the normal routine. MILDAR+2 pods FFAR+4xCirit pod is perfect for such operations. Pretty good and useful combinations can be made with 4xUMTAS also. Its not so bad but different position and the possibility for the usage of the full potential of the hard points that we wait with Atak II. I know you know just want to get the attention of @HusseiNo

 

[Kamil_baku]

Not only. The payload will also be bigger. We can add MILDAR on T129 Atak if we want. The problem is that you have to sacrifice one hard point but for COIN operations its more than enough while knowing the normal routine. MILDAR+2 pods FFAR+4xCirit pod is perfect for such operations. Pretty good and useful combinations can be made with 4xUMTAS also. Its not so bad but different position and the possibility for the usage of the full potential of the hard points that we wait with Atak II. I know you know just want to get the attention of @HusseiNo

Actually i dont think it worth to invest hundreds of millions dollars or billions to put more weapon on Atak, as 16 antitank missiles is way enough and also agile, cheap helicopter..
The problem with this design is you cannot see the threat coming from the other side of the helicopter, unless you do some special operation and expect a target in front of you, its ok..

 

[kartal1]

Actually i dont think it worth to invest hundreds of millions dollars or billions to put more weapon on Atak, as 16 antitank missiles is way enough and also agile, cheap helicopter..
The problem with this design is you cannot see the threat coming from the other side of the helicopter, unless you do some special operation and expect a target in front of you, its ok..

What do you mean? MILDAR can't see the left side if put on right hard point?

 

[Kamil_baku]

What do you mean? MILDAR can't see the left side if put on right hard point?

If it flies really high, then it can see the targets below it, but still less range from the other side..
as it is milli meter wave, it will detect any single object that blocks its waves..
but it will have difficulties when helicopters fly close to ground to avoid SAM missiles..

 

[kartal1]

If it flies really high, then it can see the targets below it, but still less range from the other side..
as it is milli meter wave, it will detect any single object that blocks its waves..
but it will have difficulties when helicopters fly close to ground to avoid SAM missiles..

Hmm I see now. Thank you for setting me up.

 

[OguzSenturk]

I disagree with the claim of making Atak-2 in order to put Mildar better place. If TAI will stick with renders, payload positions are just same.

The best advantage of Atak-2 is that flir hangs upside down, means it won't lose the sight of target easily and can see it in 270degree horizontal sight with 60degree elevation. Currently the target sight is so narrow specially in high altitudes.

 

[Cypro]

The reason they develop Atak 2 is to add MMW radar on it, which will be a competitor to Longbow Apache..
Even though Leonardo is very good in radars, it will take another 6-7 years for them to make millimeter wave radar..
so my conclusion is, its not a real competitor

@Kamil_baku @kartal1
I get your point, Yes T129 is not designed for MILDAR, and there is a certain trade-off if you want to add it. Plus MILDAR is mostly for conventional war, like Longbow Radar (Anti-armor operations), so it is not an urgent requirement, and yes Atak-II will have more payload capacity to carry it (although 3D render model does not show us the MILDAR!). I hope it won't be placed on hard points like in the photo.

However specs of AW249 and Atak-II shows that these will be light attack helicopters as well, just a bit improved, neither of them planned to have stronger engine and 7-8 tonne still counted as light, so it cannot be an alternative to Apache or Mi-28(MTOW-10+). Both of them are in the same class with Tiger, Rooivalk etc. Atak-II will probably have TEI 1400shp engines which are quite similar to current engines, in addition LHTEC is very optimized and light engine which makes T129 one of the lightest and cheap to operate helo with decent payload. I don't think TEI engines will be lighter than LHTEC or have a better performance unless they think third engine as a solution. It will be the first helicopter engine designed and produced locally! don't expect much from it. Atak-II will be heavier but probably with heavier engines. The reason for Atak-II would might be having more control over it, having stealthier design, better flir placement (AW249 making same mistake), more "milli" design, a bit! better payload! and for export without restrictions.

I think Atak-II should be heavier, because we have T129 as light attack and COIN. Turkey needs anti-armor chopper too. (More powerful engines or third engine, 30 mm cannon, payload of 1800 to 2000 kg, may be 16x Umtas) Compete with AH-64 Mi-28 Ka-52

@Kamil_baku For the radar, I think as an EU and NATO country, Poland or Italy could easily outsource and integrate Longbow like radar, they don't need to re-invent it.

Lastly, Leonardo and TAI have collaboration on multiple programs and Leonardo will definitely use experience gained from T-129 to develop AW249. So I expect some sharing and collaboration on Atak-II and AW249 programs too. And similarity of specs suggests possible rivalry in export market too. T129 is lighter and cheaper than Tiger, but it is not a fully local product, but A129 still exists too, so Poland made a good decision.

 

[Kamil_baku]

@Kamil_baku @kartal1
I get your point, Yes T129 is not designed for MILDAR, and there is a certain trade-off if you want to add it. Plus MILDAR is mostly for conventional war, like Longbow Radar (Anti-armor operations), so it is not an urgent requirement, and yes Atak-II will have more payload capacity to carry it (although 3D render model does not show us the MILDAR!). I hope it won't be placed on hard points like in the photo.

However specs of AW249 and Atak-II shows that these will be light attack helicopters as well, just a bit improved, neither of them planned to have stronger engine and 7-8 tonne still counted as light, so it cannot be an alternative to Apache or Mi-28(MTOW-10+). Both of them are in the same class with Tiger, Rooivalk etc. Atak-II will probably have TEI 1400shp engines which are quite similar to current engines, in addition LHTEC is very optimized and light engine which makes T129 one of the lightest and cheap to operate helo with decent payload. I don't think TEI engines will be lighter than LHTEC or have a better performance unless they think third engine as a solution. It will be the first helicopter engine designed and produced locally! don't expect much from it. Atak-II will be heavier but probably with heavier engines. The reason for Atak-II would might be having more control over it, having stealthier design, better flir placement (AW249 making same mistake), more "milli" design, a bit! better payload! and for export without restrictions.

I think Atak-II should be heavier, because we have T129 as light attack and COIN. Turkey needs anti-armor chopper too. (More powerful engines or third engine, 30 mm cannon, payload of 1800 to 2000 kg, may be 16x Umtas) Compete with AH-64 Mi-28 Ka-52

@Kamil_baku For the radar, I think as an EU and NATO country, Poland or Italy could easily outsource and integrate Longbow like radar, they don't need to re-invent it.

Lastly, Leonardo and TAI have collaboration on multiple programs and Leonardo will definitely use experience gained from T-129 to develop AW249. So I expect some sharing and collaboration on Atak-II and AW249 programs too. And similarity of specs suggests possible rivalry in export market too. T129 is lighter and cheaper than Tiger, but it is not a fully local product, but A129 still exists too, so Poland made a good decision.

Bro, we all know that Apache is heavier and has powerful engine.. I especially mentioned that it can have MMW capability like Apache, which others fail to have it...

There is no such thing that stealthier helicopter.. you need a very different design for that like COmache, even that one will still fail... You also have to keep heat signature lower which they did it with T129.

WHat i mean is nobody will invest billion to place Camera better or make the heat signature lower.. I still strongly believe that the main reason is MMW radar, which they will also try to add as many as possible updates..

On the other hand, When helicopter fly forward, their noose goes down which let them to see everything with the current design too.. Turkey might what to change it so others not to tell that its a copy again..

 

[OguzSenturk]

This is Atak-2 render from TAI website, so assuming that this is the thing we are talking about wouldn't be so wrong.

I really do not see any other place for MMW radar than same hardpoints on T129.

 

[Seyfullah]

WTF?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1017269627708112896