Swat Operation II

[Kasrkin]

"In certain ways TTP is much closer to Jinnah’s vision than our conformist Political and Military leaders who have the demeanor of a loyal mule, always need the patronage of a ‘Gora sahib”."

OMG this is getting ridiculous. You should be ashamed. How can you say that? You know nothing about anything. You can’t even address half the points I made in my post. I’ve spoon fed you everything. I’ve gone over the course of events that lead us to where we are to dispel your confusions, I’ve explained in great detail why your claims are simply inaccurate, I’ve explained why your proposals are suicidal and why your demeanor is so very counterproductive, I’ve also explained what the best course of action is and all its benefits. You and Pashtun didn’t address any of that. You repeat the same BS that stands well with the most educated and naïve of Anti-American masses, but that doesn’t stand up to factual, logical, dispassionate scrutiny. Morally I’ve tried to explain how very unacceptable you are. But still you insist on the same inconsequential, unsubstantiated and pathetically arrogant rhetoric?

It’s like you come and knock on my door, and start screaming on the top of your voice that my wife is a whore. I deal with you calmly, ask you to come in, sit you down on a sofa and start listing all the reasons I have for knowing that my wife is not a whore. Every time I finish you start all over again, without caring to address or rationalize anything I’ve explained. When I tell you that it is simply not true, all you have to say is ‘reality hurts’. You start naming all the whores you know, you start talking about all the dirty things they do, and you lecture me on how ashamed I should be for having a whore for a wife. You tell me how ashamed my parents would be that I married a whore and how me trying to defend her makes me an adultery supporter too. And then you say you have my best interests at heart and should be respected? That's pretty much all you guys have done here.

At the end of the day you have nothing other than a shameless conviction in terrorist ideals. I am so insulted. I’ve never claimed that we or the GoP are anywhere close to realizing Jinnah’s vision, but you brand the activities of the TTP akin to Jinnah’s ideology? You DARE? I’ve won’t even credit that with a reply. Like I said, you have no material, just an unquenchable reckless loathing that compels you to look for justifications to rationalize. And you’re failing.

Now all I’ll say is this. You think TTP are the best bet for Pakistan? You are PATHETIC enough to think that the TTP are even remotely loyal to Jinnah’s doctrines? Fine, at least now the battle lines are drawn. We can’t afford to let deluded fools ruin everything Pakistan has achieved in the last 60 years. People like you DO deserve to be in jail. You do not deserve all the rights and protection and sense of belonging that Pakistan has given you, because the Pakistan that is is obviously an insult to you. Try to destroy our country, we destroy you. No nation that exists has done so without that basic law. You’re on the wrong side, you’re very lucky we don’t live in a secret-police state or you’d be dead. Hopefuly not too many people are as dishonorable as you, Pakistan will survive and prosper.

How many new F-16 C/D squadrons have been raised under the new American patronage?

That depends on how much we can afford too because unlike what you like telling the world, we’re not beggars. The situation with our existing F-16 fleet is infinitely better compared to Nawaz Sharif’s time when we could barely use half our F-16s for a couple of days in case of war. Now thanks to American spares, upgrades, deliveries and access the F-16 fleet is many times more potent than what it would have been without; which was near obsolete.

How many AH-64D’s have been delivered?

Have we even asked for it yet? No. Can we afford it? Barely. Will our finances be better off utilized in other more needed systems? Probably.

How many M1A2 independent armored brigades have been raised?

LOL>And we’re the ones you accuse of thinking everything American made is best for us. We rejected the Abram offer back in the 80s (thanks God we did) after trails. It consumes too much fuel, our sands are too thin, it is too heavy and complicated to make. Unlike you, people in the Army obviously know what is best for the country and its security.

But we’ve really been able to speed up our mechanization for the independent brigades and the strike corps thanks to the Americans. This really helps kill chances of Indians taking territory and increases our chances of making inroads against them. With American APCs and SP artillery, these probably will be the defining differences between victory and defeat in a future war with India, same in the case with the Airforce’s F-16s.

No our generals don’t have the gora inferiority complex that dictates their outlook and decisions; you do.

I am overwhelmed by sadness and rage against Musharraf and his coterie of Generals who used SSG in the Lal Masjid tragedy. Who will answer the souls of those 300 innocent girl students?

So the Colonel was the bad ‘mercenary’ guy here like you put it and Ghazi was obviously doing the right thing because none of his actions provoked your irk? Again with the 300 ‘innocent’ girls crap. How is that even possible with barely a company of SSG killing 300 girls. That’s like every single commando killed 2 ‘innocent’ girls and walked out smiling flashing the ‘V’ sign. Why do you accuse the PA of being such monsters without ANY credibility? Why do you ignore the real monsters? Because you’re a bad guy, and worse you’re dangerous for Pakistan.

All of us at this forum are probably more committed to Pakistan and its core values than your good self.

Yup, I’m sure everyone can see that.

Pak Army has not been used for exactly very patriotic purposes all the time. In the past 61 years its Full Scale engagement record with the enemy is about 37 days. The Army has been consistently misused in East Pakistan, Balochistan, FATA, Sind, NWFP. This national asset has been misused to kill a million Pakistani citizens in East Pakistan, several thousands in Marri-Bugti areas in 1973-76, Waziristan (2003-now), Bajaur, Swat.

You obviously have a very high and educated opinion about the PA. How could I have ever called you Anti-PA and Anti-Pakistan. So the PA has killed more than a million innocent Pakistani citizens eh? I can certainly see how your rhetoric is designed to keep Pakistan united. If 60,000 Pak soldiers have the heart to kill a 1,000,000 innocents then the PA must really be some mean inhumane machine eh? I mean I can’t even imagine killing 16 innocents (which is the average) and living with myself…

The main fault lies with the quality and caliber of our Generals, makes a deadly combination once punctuated with greed and lust for “booty”.

Yes I can see how the quality of your ‘analysis’ and loyalty will put them to shame.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

This is called 'freedom od speech' isn't it? When western media and libral fascists insult our religion and our Prophet, nobody protests. Because then it is the matter of the 'freedom of speech'. When we criticize our leaders and right so, all of a sudden this becomes slanderous and traitorous comments. What double (or God knows how many) standards.

what are you talking about? the majority of members here are Pakistani by origin, and muslim by religion. I fail to understand your logic, how did these thoughts of westerners slandering the Prophet (SAWS) mix with members here defending the army? are you a takfirist, do you think the muslims here on this forum are kaafir?

a democracy and free judiciary have nothing to do with Islam. The Lawyer's Movement has nothing to do with Islam. All of our govt. structures are secular, to promote these concepts of democracy and lawyers and chief justices is secular and has nothing to do with islam.

the only form of govt. muslims should abide by is the Khilafa and the Khilafa needs a strong army as its pillar. even if you go to the banned Hizb-ul-Tahrir website, the only thing you will see them focus on when it comes to Pakistan, is the army and defense production. Why is that so? it's because these things are the only institution and capability that can actually come in use for the future of the Khilafa, not chief justice Iftikhar.

 

[qsaark]

Sufficient to say that my reply was not in response to any Pakistani or muslim member.

 

[S-2]

"Our President, Army Chief, Prime Minister et al follow the dictation of low level US Government and CENTCOM officials."

That was Anwar2's comment.

Here's my reply-

"Those are pretty slanderous, and even traitorous comments without SERIOUS substantiation that goes beyond the simple accusation."

Here's YOUR retort-

"When we criticize our leaders and right so, all of a sudden this becomes slanderous and traitorous comments."

Here's my answer-

There is no criticism. We have a blanket condemnation of what amounts as slander of your leading nat'l security figures without nary a substantive word behind it.

Maybe you missed "SERIOUS substantiation" in my comments. This was hardly criticism nor correct by the expected demeanor of a citizen. It was treasonous slander which substitutes a rant for a charge sheet.

Never in the annals of scholastic history has so much money and effort been expended to achieve so little from somebody who's so incapable.

Will you ever improve your discourse or are you, indeed, hopeless at this point?

 

[Pk_Thunder]

Govt decides to continue Swat operation​

Updated at: 1937 PST, Friday, February 13, 2009
Govt decides to continue Swat operation ISLAMABAD: A high level meeting presided over by President Asif Ali Zardari and Prime Minister Yusuf Raza Gilani has decided to continue the military operation in Swat for elimination of militancy and restoring writ of the state in the area.

Chief of the Army Staff, General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, Advisor to Prime Minister on Interior Affairs Rehman Malik, Foreing Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, DG ISI Lt. Gen. Ahmed Shuja Pasha and other officials attended the meeting besides Awami National Party Chief Asfandyar Wali, Governor NWFP Owais Ghani, Chief Minister Amir Haider Khan Hoti.

A detailed briefing about Swat and FATA situation was given during the review meeting and the participants expressed contentment over the ongoing action in these areas for elimination of militancy.

President Zardari in his address to the meeting said there is no other option left to the government except for using force to root out the scourge of terrorism and militancy.

“The militants will not be allowed to impose their agenda by through use of force,” the President said.

At the meeting tributes were paid to the officials and personnel of law enforcing agencies who stood against the militants.

The President described as heroes the officials and personnel who rendered sacrifice of their lives in the operation.

 

[TruthSeeker]

President Zardari in his address to the meeting said there is no other option left to the government except for using force to root out the scourge of terrorism and militancy.

“The militants will not be allowed to impose their agenda by through use of force,” the President said.

The above quote is so simple to understand. It is the response of any responsible government to seditious activities that occur within its borders. It was the cause of the US Civil War and countless other civil wars throughout history, including now Sri Lanka. All the advocates of Sharia in SWAT need to do is pursue their agenda PEACEFULLY, and the ARMY will go back to their barracks.

 

[Anwar2]

Dear S-2:

You simply did’nt get it! There is nothing oblique about my “soap opera style rhetoric”; it’s a direct portrayal of what sovereignty and dignity means.

I said:
How will you feel when a Chinese UAV is getting Laser cueing from a US Army Officer and directing a Hellfire at your home in the USA?

Now checkout the link:
US official says drones using Pakistan base -DAWN - Top Stories; February 14, 2009
US official says drones using Pakistan base

Now the case in point:
A Chinese UAV taking off from Newark on an anti-Terrorist mission gets into a steady orbit overhead Queens, NY and then shoots a Hellfire at a premises suspected of housing Tibetan terrorists. There are 20 casualties including women, children, and bystanders.

Then your president informs the American Nation that the USA has taken in certain obligations to combat the global menace of terrorism and the Chinese Army is operating on American soil against extremist targets. Besides, the ANG units have been put at their disposal.

Then your president gleefully informs the US public that the Chinese will reimburse the US Government for the fuel, labor effort and basing to keep the UAV’s operational; and will be allowed to make the customary 10% profit as per the Federal Acquisition Regulations.

“”We're it me, I'd ban you. I can't believe you're still here. If I'd said such stark words specifically against your nation's key leadership and only offered your windbag defense, I'd be long gone and deservedly so””

What else can you do, besides muzzling the voice of dissent?

Please demonstrate a minimum level of moral courage to express you views of the Chinese UAV theorem on the US soil.

 

[waraich66]

Please demonstrate a minimum level of moral courage to express you views of the Chinese UAV theorem on the US soil.

Moral courage in US government and armed forces

If they have our world would have been much better place without Gotanobay jail ,masacare of 5000 Talaban POWs,Vietnam war,Iraq War,Support of Israel to genocide palestinian in Gaza etc.

 

[Anwar2]

TruthSeeker:
“”All the advocates of Sharia in SWAT need to do is pursue their agenda PEACEFULLY, and the ARMY will go back to their barracks””

That’s very positive and rational thinking. But positive and rational thinking works only in law abiding rational societies, where the government has the moral authority to impose its writ.

Our president is a convict who served 8 years for embezzlement of public funds and built a US$ 1.5 b fortune.

Our Chief justice was imprisoned while in office, has not been restored as yet.

The people of Swat have peacefully struggled for Shariah Laws since 1987. The government twice entered into agreements to promulgate Shariah laws, and renegade on the promises.

Do you really think there is any chance for a PEACEFUL solution?

 

[S-2]

O.k.

I'll play.

"A Chinese UAV taking off from Newark on an anti-Terrorist mission gets into a steady orbit overhead Queens, NY and then shoots a Hellfire at a premises suspected of housing Tibetan terrorists."

So how long ago had we surrendered our sovereign responsibilities to the tibetan terrorists who are sheltering on our lands? Did they do so despite our active resistance or were they welcomed with open arms? Where was the American army when these tibetans invaded Queens-guarding against those evil Mexicans?

You've a nation full of citizens that were peddled a load of tripe about strategic space in a foreign nation. You permitted a defeated taliban army to find succor and sanctuary on your lands to perpetuate this strategic dream and it was encouraged among your people. Nothing else explains how those bozos overcame your Pakistani army who's expressed purpose is securing the integrity of ALL your borders-not just the Indian portions.

Now you've a need to radically adjust the narrative to suit the new reality. That, of course, is that your crows have come home to roost and you must now fight your friends to please your enemies.

Karma, man. Totally.

 

[Anwar2]

Dear Karskin:

Your anger shows that you sincerely believe in what you say. I can see the rage that I experienced at a certain point in life from by older brother on my wayward ways (his opinion which I did not necessarily agreed with). But my brother he was, and you are.

I gladly accept your compliments: “” Ridiculous, you should be ashamed, . You know nothing about anything, I’ve tried to explain how very unacceptable you are, shameless conviction in terrorist ideals, People like you DO deserve to be in jail, you’re very lucky we don’t live in a secret-police state or you’d be dead. Hopefuly not too many people are as dishonorable as you””.

PLEASE I just have one request. Your wife is my Honorable Sister, please do not use derogatory analogy. TUHMAT is an unforgivable crime and I won’t do it.

I have always try to understand you, and to learn from you (that’s what this forum is for). I take this opportunity to jot down my understanding of your train of thought:

1. Pakistan being a member of International Community has to abide by its explicit, perceived or interpolated obligations in the “War against Terror”.
2. Pakistan’s major “War against Terror” obligation is to facilitate and support NATO/US operations in Afghanistan. That is possible only once the Afghan Taliban logistics support from FATA is stopped by the Pak Army.
3. Taleban and Extremists are by far a greater danger to Pakistan’s integrity than any external threat from India, or the USA.
4. Documented and undocumented understanding arrived at between Gen Musharraf and the USA are like “Sulah Hudaibiyah” and its our obligation as true Muslims to respect and follow it. Pakistan has “slightly compromised” on its sovereignty for greater good of the nation.
5. By throwing its lot with the USA Pakistan has ensured its own physical and economic survival. Musharraf and his Army coterie saved Pakistan from “being bombed into the stone age”.
6. International Community and the USA expects Pak Army to deliver and establish its:”writ” over FATA, Swat and other trouble spots. If Pak Army fails, the results would be catastrophic!. Just look at the drone strikes; this is what happens when you cannot meet the expectations of the USA.
7. Just look at the enormous quantum of Military aid that Pakistan got for its contribution so far. If Pakistan behaves like good boys more is expected.
8. Pakistan is an honorable ally. Honorable allies should not flinch at making some sacrifices, even if that’s battling your own citizens on your own soil.
9. Pakistan has only made a “Tactical withdrawal” from supporting Kashmiris. After all this is no time to upset India while Pak Army is so busy with stabilizing FATA and Swat.


My point of view is presented in just a few lines:

1. “War on Terror” is not Pakistan’s war. Our Political and Civilian rulers have taken the ownership of this phony war of sorts to perpetuate their stay in power, and to spin in some raw cash.
2. Pak Army is being misused to fight America’s War. All secret agreements / arrangements with the US arrived at by Musharraf, and maintained by the present Government are illegal, and a pathetic compromise on national sovereignty.
3. We are not Allies, because Allies do not sell their sovereignty. Even measly “Allies” like Georgia and Poland are handsomely rewarded just for their lip service. No Ally is stupid enough to deploy 120,000 troops and to kill its own citizens.
4. Even if we forget the notions of Dignity and Sovereignty, we are not being paid even 10% of our true costs (forget about making a profit). We are selling ourselves very cheap. So we are both dishonorable and stupid.
5. The implied US threat about “Bombing into the Stone Age” is pure baloney. The US never had, and does not have the power projection needed to bring about a chaotic collapse of Nuclear Pakistan (however rudimentary). Nuclear weapons are not meant for use in anger; just the element of uncertainty brings an order-of-magnitude change to the pre-emptive doctrines. Unfortunately the US has known the true caliber of our incompetent Generals far too well. A bit of bullying, a bit of coercion, a bit of psych ops, a bit of money has been enough to get the desired impact.
6. Pakistan has tacitly accepted the US sponsored Indian hegemony as the regional power in the subcontinent. That’s why our president was bullied into bringing ISI under Rehman Maliks Minitry of Interior and offered to send DG ISI as an approver in the Bombay violence case. Try and o that with Nirendar Modi in the Gujarat pogrom case!!


I was sorry to see your immense gratitude over the supply of spares for our old F-16 A/B fleet and the MLU. Greece, Thailand, Israel, Egypt, Turkey and even Chile have received more spares and new assets during the past 8 years, none of them deployed a 120,000 troops or killed its citizens on its own soil. Sanctions against Pakistan on the supply of spares after 1990 and the cancellation / mothballing of 70 F-16’s were the ultimate commercial blackmail. Even today our F-16 fleet cannot be used in anger against India, and that includes the future F-16 C/D’s.

Back in the late 50’s era of Dwight D Eisenhower Pakistan entered CENTO; without an obligation to kill its citizens or wage a war. By 1961 Pakistan got the following:
• M48 Tanks
• 155 mm guns
• Huge quantity of mobility assets.
• O-1s and helicopters for Army Aviation
• 14 X F-104 Star Fighters
• 24 X B-57B
• 120 F-86 Saber jets
• 8 X C-130

Then Pakistan was considered an Ally!

Your question of the affordability of AH-64 and M-1 misses the punch line entirely. What affordability are you talking about? The USA should pay for the assets and a life-cycle sustainmnet package like they used to do for ARVN during the Vietnam War, or is done for Israel and Egypt today.

You wanna have a claim to fame as an Ally, then demand the right price at the least.

 

[Anwar2]

Dear S-2:

The US has nurtured, bred and allowed “Terrorists” to operate from its soil on innumerable occasions. Here is a short list (please verify your facts”:

1. Afghan Taliban operated their Queens, NY consulate, all paid for by the State Dept from 1996-early 2001. Taliban were actually raised with the US or US sponsored money, UNICOL / Halliburton, State Dept., Saudi Arabia.
2. Cuban Terrorists have operated from US soil since 1959. Dade county is the center for nurturing Cuban terrorists.
3. Do you remember Contra Rebels (Nicaragua)?
4. Ever heard of Shan State Army and Muang Gorillas?
5. Ever heard of Irani Mujahideen-e-Khalq; they operated from California for 2 decades.
6. Where did Ahmed Al Chalabi (Iraq) operated from?
7. Afghan Mujahideen Terrorists were aided, supported and feted by President Reagan and subsequent US administrations. $ out of 7 groups had offices in the USA.
8. CIA began to aid the Dalai Lama in 1954. The outbreak of riots in Tibet, Sichuan, and Gansu was attributable to CIA. The aid continues to this day.
9. The US is the biggest supported of State sponsored Terrorism in Palestine / Gaza. AIPAC and ADL essentially drive the US foreign policy against entrenched US interests in the Arab world. Israel is a Jewish extremist theocracy not very different from Taliban in makeup and ideological tyranny.

The list is just too long and boring

 

[Vinod2070]

Please demonstrate a minimum level of moral courage to express you views of the Chinese UAV theorem on the US soil.

Moral courage in US government and armed forces

If they have our world would have been much better place without Gotanobay jail ,masacare of 5000 Talaban POWs,Vietnam war,Iraq War,Support of Israel to genocide palestinian in Gaza etc.

Doesn't it pale in comparison to the biggest genocide after the WW-II?

 

[Anwar2]

Dear Kraskin:

Lal Masjid massacre remains a festering wound; its outreach on our national psyche can hardly be over estimated.

Ghazi Abdul Rashid was a simplistic fire brand leader with a rather weird form of activism. His students raided some bars and apprehended some prostitutes and believed they are on the way towards the Shariah rule. A few hot heads got hold of some AK-47’s and a few mines and actually believed they are the “revolutionary guards protecting the Islamic revolution”. The little girls in Al-Hafsah too were seeing themselves as incarnation of Women Revolutionary guards.

The whole thing had a light hearted theatrical air about it. In the bargain they ended up hurting some entrenched business interests (Fun industry in Islamabad is pretty well entrenched). Finally on July 7, 2007 their Patron in chief Gen Musharraf decided to wrap up the show.

The Army / SSG put Lal Masjid under siege for 9 days; with water, power cut off in the sweltering heat of Islamabad. A few misplaced rounds by the zealots were matched by Mortars, Artillery.

Lal Masjid operation was planned and executed with a zeal unheard of in Kargil, Siachin or Chamb Jorian. US UAV’s were tasked with mapping the final operational sequence. Total 100% success had to be ensured.

Our valiant troops cleared the mosque of “Terrorists” on July 11, 2007. About 104 coffins containing burnt out flesh and pieces were buried under Army supervision. About 300 girl students present in the mosque till the night of July 10 went missing.

The most heinous aspect of this crime was the crude manner in which the evidence was destroyed. Some Intel agencies shot videos that are still a “State Secret”. The mosque was finally demolished and cleared away by bulldozers (supposedly it was an illegal structure!).

On August 16, 2007, acting on a suo motu notice, the Supreme Court of Pakistan took up the extrajudicial killings of the people at the Lal Masjid and Jamia Hafsa complex. Performance of the Islamabad administration attracted the reprimand of the court for slow pace. And finally the Chief Justice was removed under Musharraf’s Nov 3 Ordnance (mini Martial Law).

Another heinous aspect of this tragedy is the loss of life in the SSG. Was it a “Shahadat” or not is not upto us to decide, that’s the prerogative of Allah. Probably the brave SSG souls would have been happier laying down their lives in Siachin, Kargil or Kashmir. Their families too would been a lot more proud ....you just cannot explain attacking a Mosque.

 

[RabzonKhan]

My thoughts exactly. Appeasement will never work when dealing with Taliban bastards, as we all know that none of the previous “peace” deals worked. We must fight and exterminate them in Swat and FATA, because if we lose there, I have no doubt that their next target is going to be Lahore, Karachi and Islamabad.

Elite Force along Punjab borders, Sanaullah tells PA

February 14, 2009

LAHORE: The Elite Force will be deployed along the borders of Punjab as the province is under threat from terrorists crossing over from Balochistan and NWFP, Minister for Law and Parliamentary Affairs Rana Sanaullah told the Punjab Assembly (PA) on Friday.

Sanaullah said the Punjab government had already withdrawn the Elite Force from VIP duty, and now elite personnel would be deployed in the bordering areas. He said the force would be provided the latest weapons so that the people could be protected. He said the Taliban had carried out the recent terrorist acts in the province. He appreciated police for maintaining law and order.