sighs...you know I take a lot caution when replying to you and people like you, so that you don't feel alienated from the rest of the members on this forum. Please respond with the same patience I extend to you, I have no grudge against you, and I do hope you realize that. I disagree with some of the statements here, coming from both sides of the argument, but my problem lies with your thinking and logic.
No you don't, perhaps this would be the first email you took that advice of yours but calling me "Anti-Pakistani" many times, "extremist" many times, "Jaahil awaam" many times, "Terrorist" many times, were not very much cautious on your end to not alienate me. In fact you did every effort to do that, instead of replying to my concerns (which was somewhat only in the last post you did, and I replied back only to your post and you still didn't respond to my post) instead giving me a lecture by alienating me and telling me that I am some sort of dumb person comparing to hishighness. So no thanks, you can keep your goodwill gestures to yourself. I don't need your phoney neo-liberal goodies. You are just an another profile for me in this forum with whom I share my views, tho I doubt that from your end, as you are constantly 'imposing' your views on me by calling mine as "error in my logic/ignorant answer" etc. etc.
I could care less whether you love or hate the army, I was never arguing to enforce something like that in your head. I've found that arguing with the majority of the Pakistani people in support of the army is useless, which is why I choose to ignore ranting coming from ignorants.
You did. Or you would not open you many replies with statements such as "Army this and Army that" and that we "jaahil awaam" hate army. And I constantly asked you to talk on the subject matter, not give me lectures, which you constantly did, along with this one as well, which was not a reply to what we were discussing, rather a lecture to an 'alien' by telling imposing your thought on him.
I know it's my screen name that is causing grief to some people here, but I didn't know it would turn from an academic argument to a "error in your logic" without proving the error or anything.
So if you need to argue your point, be specific to the points I had raised and you didn't like or want to counter them. Not by giving me lectures of what is right and what is not. Debate academically, not like a grandfather (which you are not as I am sure you are way younger than me, while thinking all that of yourself).
what I'm trying to figure out here is what your views are, I'm trying to clear up those views and put them forth so that you, yourself, can see the error of your logic. your arguments aren't consistent, they don't even make sense when you put them in order.
In fricken 3 dozen posts you couldn't figure out what I am saying while Agnostic Muslim is quiet on the level (tho not with his accusations) with me? where does the problem lie now? How many times do someone have to tell you what the other person is asking?
I can tell you what is the problem here. The problem is, you can't take the criticism against army. This is what you send me a private message, and this is what you said time and over again here that why I am questioning army. that's the problem.
The army is not beyond criticism, you don't know how much I criticize the armed forces, on this forum and the others. I've been mocked and ridiculed for that, some people are just too proud to admit their own shortcomings. However, what I do know is that our own people are far too stupid to realize that our army pales in comparison to the indian army and so many other armies, when it comes to horrific crimes and "taking the nation hostage". I understand how important the army is to our nation, how important it is to entire muslim world. the only thing holding the US and India back is our army and intelligence.
Right, the army i snot beyond criticsm, that is why half of your replies along with private message was threatening mode to tell me that I am not even a pakistani and a jaahil awaam by saying "army this and army that". Sure, whatever makes you happy.
I am new here, deffinately not welcomed by a few of you tho thanks to many others (whom love made me stay), so I have to admit that I haven't read every single post of yours, but as many I have, NO WHERE you have criticised the top brass for the things you ar enot claiming. Instead I see full fledge defense of every wrongdoing of them by justifying their every action and fighting against anybody by calling them "***** awaam" and "ignorants" and "non-pakistanis" and other colorful words if they questioned the army.
So this is what I have seen from you so far and that certainly doesn't interpret as criticising the army, rather spitting on anyone who remotely question actions of top brass.
you talk as if corruption in the upper echelons of the army is more severe than the likes of what we've seen with politicians. you make it sound as if our politicians are angels, and only a few of them are corrupt? do you know how much money they've stolen from the public since the beginning? do you want me to show you how they live here in the US? I can certainly pull up a picture of my friend on facebook, and show you what drinking and partying really is.
e.g. just look at your this comment. If I ask you right now, where did I ever say or even implied our politician are classic example of prophethood, then you'd have no place to hide. All you are doing is "assuming". If I had a dollar for everytime you assumed something about me, I would be a rich man by now. You are constantly misquoting me to form your argument to prove your point "against" me. You are constantly misinterpreting me (deliberately since you have been implying all along that you are all that and well, I am ignorant ***** awaam). You are constantly assigning things to me that I have never said, just so you can have your argument nice and dandy. That's all I can comprehend from your this comment.
it's true the army is westernized, but only to a small degree. These westernized generals in the upper echelons are dying out.
This is another example of misquoting, misinterpreting and assigning things to me that I have never said. If you don't corectly remember, it was someone else who questioned the culture of army, not me.
I am questioning the actions of LM and aerial bombardment of Swat on behest of someone else, as it's clearly not a need of the operation and clearly many officers were against it. But yet you are at it again by associating something you dreampt last night to me that I am questioning th ewesternization of the army. I am questioning the very actions of the top brass by being in the bed with america, who are pushing them to attack civilian quarters with mere aid, money and threats and our top brass is saying "yes sir" withotu taking the other military in confidence. I am questioning the very unilateral actions taken in the past on LM and Swat/Bajaur operations.
The next generals in line are called "post Zia-ists"-recently brought up in an article, hence the fear of nuclear weapons falling into the "wrong hands". the term is pretty much self-explanatory. there is severe hatred for the US in the armed forces and the intelligence. But again, there's a difference between knowing and actually doing something about it.
I know that very well, and even I said that in my last post to you, but you certainly didn't take that in consideration when I said there's a split in the army between the good guys and the bad guys, and here you are again, repeating yourself. I don't know what to tell you because I am not really use to this kind of discussions, where other's parroting themselves left n right without listening to the other party. So I am speechless.
I can assure you, the militants aren't winning in afghanistan as some idiots here are celebrating, the americans simply don't care about them as long as their direct interests aren't threatened. things are not what they seem to be. as of right now, there is nothing Pakistan can do. The only option is to play it out and wait, until someone gets tired and leaves.
First of all you stop insulting Freedom fighters fighting against the occupation forces by calling them Militants. Secondly that's what you think that they are losing. I live on the border of that country having witnessed the soviet-afghan conflict and then the civil war and then the Talibans regime and then the american occupation, and then having a masters degree in history that included Afghanistan history, I certainly disagree with you that there's any chance of losing. Afghanistan is rightly called "Graveyard of Empires".
So to hide the failure of all powerful american empire and 40 allied nations, they are spilling the war into Pakistan after the allies failed to implement the democracy there (which now they too claim can't be done so changing the strategy). It's a completely different topic tho so I wont go into details but if you want to discuss than create a topic and I will be there to reply.
it's true, musharraf has made terrible decisions that cost this country so much. However, there's a difference between Musharraf and the army as a whole. I shouldn't have to remind you of the generals who helped Musharraf come into power were pro-jihadists and were bitterly against the joining of the WoT. Please research Generals Mahmood, Mohammad Aziz, and Usmani.
damn right he made mistakes. No just terribly but horrible mistakes. Our entire country is on verge of destruction because of his honeymoon with america and his love for the sherwani and the uniform at the same time.
And as I said earlier and in my previous post, that I believe there's a split in the army among good and bag guys, but bad guys being in decision making is over running the good guys. Hence we saw unilateral decisions (or severe transfers of good people to elsewhere) to get the word of the masters implemented. Just recently they replaced one of the best ISI DG Nadeem Taj with this guy Shuja Pasha, by breaking the history of the army (that never changed the position of the DG before the two year term), just because the uncle sam did not like Nadeem Taj who was exposing their crimes against Pakistan.
The people of Pakistan have elected a govt. of their own choice. you haven't provided sufficient proof of the army somehow "secretly" controlling the govt, that theory is ridiculous.
What proofs? do you think Army documents its actions of "controlling the government" and then let the public access it too? Don't be a child. The proof of the army's intervention in every god damn government we have is the past 60 years and the actions that had been reversed left n right by the GoP that they made on their own to control the Army/ISI. That clearly says who controls the business. Moreover, General Kiyani's own words are, it is necessary to intervene in the GoP to keep things in orders... what more logic and proofs do you want? a Link on the internet? Come on already, every person in Pakistan knows how powerful the Military is. Every author have written that. It's no secret. We have a history of 60 years and future have no surprises.
it was Zardari that took the order to move the ISI back, even if he was pressured by generals, the point is he did. even if Zardari chose to move the ISI, he did it without Parliament's consultation, it wasn't even debated and there was much backlash, when the ISI was moved and when the DG ISI was supposed to be sent to india. Besides, the current DG ISI has clearly said in an interview that he was ready to go.
I don't know what to say to your explanation in defense of the army that it does not intervene in GoP. And you mixed two different scenarios into one (ISI under IM and Chief's departure to India - tho I was and am against both but that's not the point we are arguing). You are saying on one hand, it was Zardari that reversed the decision, and on the other hand that it could be pressure from generals. You bet it was a pressure from generals. In both cases. The GoP, specially the likes of Zardari and Malik, does not have no room to stand against the Army to control it. That was a pure try of United States to see if they can use Zardari to tame our strong military, but they miserablly failed. But what you are not comprehending here is, the history of military intervention in GoP. You can twist the matter as much as you can, but it won't make no sense while we have a past, present of the intervention and future have no surprises. I can clearly see something big cooking up from Military side (right or wrong is even not in question here).
I've already provided you with sufficient proof the current govt. is in charge. I shouldn't have to, bring me some serious proof that the army is in charge. otherwise, drop this accusation and blame the current govt. right now which has an agreement with the US on airstrikes.
You provided no proofs (there can never be any proof regarding that, it's a pure logical thing base don past and present expereinces that we see). rather you asserted a few things in defense that GoP controls the Army in your previous post, that I replied by asking few more qustions, and yet you did not reply to what I asked or commented on, rather you came again with this "imposing attitude" that you provided the proofs by asking me to provide you the proofs, for what we can never have any proofs but a pure logical reasoning in the light of past and present events surrounding our country. You are talking about proofs regarding the military intervention that its something documented facts from military website and easily availble to public. No, Sir, that's not the case. if you are asking for links of investigative journalists asserting that army still controls, then there are plenty you can research on your own. Other than that, we know the history of intervention and we know a couple of scenarios in the present situation and the future will have no surprises, only you have to wait and watch.
we know that innocent civilians are killed in crossfire from the artillery shells, again I brought up the agreement we had with the US for counter-insurgency training. But as I already had predicted, you would disagree and consider those soldiers to be "western slaves".
The civilians are dying regardless, most of them are called "suspected militants" by the media anyway. And most of them are being labeled as 30 militants died, or 40 killed by the army or 60 clashed. The ground reality is, the militants does not operate in 20s and 30s and 40s packs. They are in twos, 4s and maximum 10s to avoid detection and confrontration and to getaway easily after committing the crime.
And what agreement? You said there was no agreement implemented for coutner insurgency training. And I provided you a credible source (Asia Times) that reported the american base being built on the name of that training in Tarbela. If you want, you can take a trip to tarbela and check it yourself. No one is allowed in there, not even military. It's purely American base, for God knows what, as certainly F.C. is not being trained there and its quiet a few months already that americans are there.
And you again used the term "soldiers" to divert the attention of the readers to prove your argument that I am against the soldiers (not the top brass that I don't know why you are failing to read). I mean for the umptenth time, I am not asking for much, just asking you to academically discuss things. Do not assign things to me I never said. do not use the terms I never used. Do not divert the subject by portraying innocence and making me look like some evil knievel hater of army. (Even tho you said in your opening statements that You don't care what I think of Army, but yet you are constantly implying that you do care, by changing the terms that I used with what you can form your arguments with). Please, I am not asking for much, just an academic discussion based on what I am saying (even if I am wrong) but do not assign things to me I never said, just because you want to prove your argument.
what you need to recognize, is that these militants are using the civilian population as a shield. the only choices people have is to start their own lashkars, while moving people out of the area to prepare for a major operation. people cannot just sit there and only criticize the army, they have to recognize the militants and blame them equally. we know that is not happening, and we also know that these militants cannot all be foreigners, they are getting some of their support from Swat as well. tell me, why is that?
What you do not understand is, the urban warfare has always these implications. It doesn't mean that the people responsible to protect the civilians, have no option but to bomb the **** out of them.
These Militants as you claimed are not using the people as shield. The warzone
is a civilian area. That is the main design behind engaging the Pakistan Army into a battle in warzone by the west, knowing they (PA) will not hesitate to bomb it, which will create a severe backlash and gap between the PA and the civilian society.
And they (the enemy) are quiet successful in creating that Gap. If you haven't noticed, or asked any Army officers, they are told not to wear uniforms in public areas and not to disclose their identities. My cousins do not even use military vehicles anymore to come home to see their parents for few minutes. That's how much gap has been created.
Moreover, I repeat, the human shield is another western created drama to legitimise their crimes. The fact is, the militants does not operate in 20s and 30s and 40s packs. They are in twos, 4s and maximum 10s to avoid detection and confrontration with security forces, and to getaway easily after committing the crime or can easily disperse in the population undetected.
And when people hear, 20/30/50 militants dead in clashes, they go to the area to dug the bodies of the civilians because they know there will be civilians in scores, while the bad guys easily get away by provoking Military into bombing. This is why the question has been already raised that who are the militants that army cannot contain in 2 years. And that is not my concern here, it is a concern of the public, which had been relayed already to General Kiyani by our leaders (I already gave you the bbc Urdu link).
I am not making that up, it's a ground fact that people see the actions of the PA and are under perception that PA and Militants are one and some sort of game is being played. Otherwise we would have never relayed this message to General Kiyani to look into this and clear the perception of the people so support can be gained.
As a matter of fact, try to find someone else from Swat or take a quick trip to the area covertly and interview people on your own (if you deem my information biased and made up as somehow you think I have hatred for PA). That would be the best way to explain my point here that army must change the strategy and do something to clear this misconception of the people that Militants and they are not One, and there's no game being played on their property and lives. That's all what I am arguing here too being the part of that area.
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