Swat Operation II

[Pashtun]

How come you can even say that PA/ISI should have made sure they don't cross the border, when they supported them in the first place and provided all the santuaries? Haqqani to Hekmatyar, they are still Pakistan's assets.

I swear to God I don't understand this new breed of people. People like you Pashtun, hate Pakistan and PA so much that you are unreasonable. On one hand you accuse the PA of being hand in hand with and providing sanctuaries to those who we have declared to be terrorists. And on the other hand you accuse us of being 'too hard' and killing our people in counter-terrorism efforts?

Its very ironic. Anyone having a different point of view is dubbed as "Anti-Pakistan and Anti-Army". Why is that, I wonder?

It is as much as my country as much as yours. The Army is as much as mine as much as yours.

The only difference here is, you are either from Army or simply have allegiance, and hence blindly defending everything regarding that instituition. No, sir, the country rise when people question the motives of the instituitions, the actions of the government, the wrongdoings of the institutions and demands transparency. That doesn't mean that they are "Anti-country" or Anti-Instiuition". It means they are concerned with the actions and strategies of such departments.

There are precious lives of soldiers as well as civilians are being lost for some dictators who wanted to cling to his seat for the rest of his life and abused the army and the power.

As I said to brother Agnostic, denial is not a river in Pakistan. If we are to keep on denying every wrongdoing of the certain institutions we have allegiances/associations with.

This is reminding me of East Pakistan. Every other Pakistani denied what GoP was doing in Bangladesh, and the GoP, as usual, tried everything to cover it up, and there, we gave a golden opportunity to enemy to interfere and use the benefit of our arrogance and ignorance and cut our arm.

So no, not everyone who questions the instituitions actions our of concerns, is Anti-Instituition. So please, be rational for a moment and stop labeling every other person Anti-Pakistan or Anti-Army, who does not agree with you.

So technically you fully support Indian propaganda and on the other hand you're an outlet for terrorist rhetoric as well? What a contradiction, on second thought, not really but what a technical contradiction never the less. Whatever you hear that makes Pakistan out as the ‘bad guy’ you’re willing to believe and preach, even if morally it makes no sense. Where is your loyalty? Down the gutter that’s where.

No, there's no propoganda. It's a fact that PA/ISI supported Talebans. It's a fact that Pakistan was the first country that legitimised Talebans and supported them with every thing they could to gain control of Afghanistan. It's a fact that Hekmatyar is Pakistan's asset (even Zaid Hamid in one of his lectures confirmed that how Ahmed Shah Masood was snubbed over Hekmatyar for support and finance). There's no propoganda in this. You cannot blame India for all your failures (like India does). If you keep on denying everything, it will land you sooner or later in a refugee camp. You must understand the design of the Super Powers as to how they play their games by installing their own people in GoP and other institutions and then when its time, they make the case and go after the country (Iraq is the best example).

This new breed of Mullah on one had demonizes the PA for protecting their country-men from Al-Qaeda, but on the other hand they rant about western and even Indian democracy standards as if it’s the best thing that hit humanity. Whichever way they look, Pakistan is never good enough for them.

Al-Qaeda? does Al-qaeda even exist? That tells me how much you know about international affairs.

And it amazes me how people here assume things on their own. e.g. accusing me for "praising western and indian democracy standards" and "snubbing Pakistan".

I mean this clearly shows, why our country is in shambles. When people like you are there to defend "all the wrongdoings" and snub everyone who raises his voice by calling him/her "any-pakistan" and "india-lover".

Why deploy the army to destroy the country when we have people like you, decaying the country left n right by supporting everything wrong and suppressing all voices by shouting at them and accusing them for things they never say... brilliant strategy of the west, I must admit.

If you haven't noticed, one of the yank here also supported you all for killing your own people and excellently saying "patrioc pakistanis". I guess patriotism is left for those who supports the western design that the country is supporting?

Why do these people never want to serve the Pakistan that is? Why do they say they’ll be loyal only if Pakistan is remade in a twisted image for them? Being nation of 166 million, Pakistan has a lot of useless junk around. Liabilities that keep us from advancing either way. The public is confused, they lack vision. There is no one to tackle or even counter this corrosively reckless rhetoric and the politicians themselves capitalize on it, so we end up with people like Zardari as president.

How exactly you know I never served Pakistan? is serving the country only means one have to be in Army?

The country does not flourish, because it is ruled by army for half of her life. The other half was directly influenced. The dictatorships only land the country in utter chaos. Specially as big as ours. Perhpas if you haven't noticed, Pakistan crumbled in past 10 years. One after another incidence and our stupid policies to deal with them, almost caused us terrorist state notion. One after another stupid policies landed us into "Top 10 Failed State" status.

Denial is not a river in Pakistan, Kaskrin. I guess we are on two different sides of the river. Time will tell, time always tell.

 

[Pashtun]

Agreeing with you completely and commanding you on your true understanding of ground reality, I want to ask what is your take on the notion that army is equally or more actively facilitating further break up of Pakistan? I have heard that militants are forewarned before OPPS are launched and only it alienate locals, who in the long run is bound to become de-tasteful of nation's integrity. It looks like new 'Bangladesh model' has been created by IND and its allies with more vigor, resources and vehement to let PAK to erode further and become toothless. Some developments like Mr. 10% agreeing on ANP naming NWFP as Pakhtunwala, dividing Baluchistan into 6 divisions, Opening of new supply routes from Afghanistan to Iranian Port and stopping fund on missile development completely fit in that plan. And Obama's new approach toward normalizing relation with Iran gives more clarity toward the murder of Pakistani nation. What do you say about it?

Thank you sir, and absolutely, we all (on the ground) clearly see a similarity in design of Bangladesh Model. Only this time there are more than IND in the picture. It's more dangerous than the East Pakistan, because here, they are engaging the Army with civil society and creating displeassure and gap among the two, and then pushing the case of "liberation from the Army" as they did in BanglaDesh, by rising the people.

So they (the enemy) is supporting both against eachother. They are pushing army to attack the militants in fact civilians (since the militants are not trneched, rather spread out in entire area) and then they are supporting militants to attack back, by engaging Army in to heavy handedness and panic.

A few months ago, my aunt died, and we got the approval from almost every officer, including the Corps Commander, for her funeral. We gave them all the roads names that where the funeral will go from. But as soon the funeral came out, the army started to shoot. Killed a few and lodged 3 bullets in a dead body of my aunt. So imagine how much panic had been created among Army ranks.

Furthermore, you got it absolutely right that Mr. 10% is pushing for all those things "Autonomy and Name Changing" etc. that will fuel the seperatism based on the actions of the Army.

Remember, it's not just Swat that is dead now. Its entire Province. There's absolutely no businesses, no trading, no nothing. Many companies left and laid off the people. That means there are no means to provide for ones families. People are eating what they have saved. And that's what you call controlled chaos. Because people will run out of supplies and then they will rise. There's already a strong problem in the province with kidnappins for ransom and robberies etc. As they say, when you are hungry, you are ok, when your child is hungry, you go mad. Hence more hatred towards Army for the failure of the operation and destroying livlihood of the people.

The enemy's design is to keep pushing Army to bomb the militants, which can't be identified, nor known where they are. What happens is, the agents of the enemy are providing false intel to Army to bomb the areas and army acts upon it, believing the intel fed to them is correct, that results in severe civilian lives and property damage. And more disconnect is created between the civilian society and the armed forces.

Furthermore, there are militants that are not attacked at all. When local people give the details of the militants presence in certain areas, nothing happens. Instead, sa you said, they are told to leave, before Army bombs (if they bomb). So there's a outcry in the area that Army and Militants are one.

e.g. there was a curfew in our main town, Mingawara, a complete silence. Then we heard a blast, the main grid was blown, which is right in the middle of the town, which is sorrounded and ptrolled by the army. How did militants mangaged that, is what people quesitoning. Since almost in every curfew, army shot dead many civilians for coming out to find water or other supplies (since there's no electricity in many pockets, hence no water pumps working, means nobody can clean themselves or cook, drink, eat, pray etc., and then curfew goes on for days, so people come out to find water, not for themselves for their kids, and they are shot at, while the militants are roaming frely, blowing grids, schools, police stations, etc.). It rises a lot of questions as to what is happening.

I have posted a few articles from local leaders of Swat a while ago in the same thread, where they asked the General Kiyani to do something to end this concern of people that Army and Militants are one, when they see Army letting militants roam freely and bomb only the ones they want.

It seems like a controlled chaos. Self Created problem. Because back in mid 2008, Fazullulah was caught by this Major, who commanded his unit to attack this area, where he was. People even witnessed the arrest and fired in the air on this success. The very next day, Fazullulah was back on his FM Radio... people questioned the army and they said they never captured him. A further investigation revealed the Govt. asked the Army unit to release Maulana saib. Hence the doubt of Militants and Army is one, further increased.

So I guess it is very much the same design of corrupt officials dancing on the tunes of their masters, while the rest of the army is just executing the orders (even if they don't want).

 

[Pashtun]

The army is fighting its own ppl in swat? Is Fazullah and his goons actually considered our own after they choose to target their own security personal,impose a parallel system based own their own ideology of morality,destroying livelihoods by disturbing the peace of the valley and bombing the poor ppl of swat back to the stone ages (educational institutes) and raging gureilla warfare,which I consider to be the most cowardly type of warfare?

Hello Orion. First of all you'd have to understand that there is not one party involved in creating chaos in Swat. There are multiple parties, yet all of them are called TTP, and all of them are looked upon as same, where every party has it's own agenda.

As I mentioned earlier, Fazullulah was caught back in mid 2008 (of course you wont find this in news, however, if you ask locals, they will tell you the story), and then released the very day and back to his Radio broadcasts. The people questioned why? No answer so far.

Similarly, no destruction took place in Valley until Army decided to operate there back in 2007. If you don't know, Dir, Buner, Malakand, Shangla, Kalaam, and other small towns, refused Army to intervene in their towns, and there's still no problem there. Army started off from Matta, and the problem started there. Then Kabal, problem started in Kabal. Then Army decided to secure Mingawara, all of a sudden the calm and quiet Mingawara fell to militants too. Why?

Who are these people who are not going in other districts but only those where Army is going or wants to go?

Collateral damage...how can u avoid that in circumstances when the enemy decides to hide behind the innocent population and rage warfare from within the civilians?

You do surgical operations. You run intensive network of intelligence and you run commando raids. A densely populated area, where as you said militants are hiding behind population, you can't bomb that area. I gave great details in my reply to M Saint that how Army is bombing the area on intelligence reports from the ground. That 99% of the time damages property and kills scores of civilians. Almost every day.

So what do you do? you run a ground operation, a surgical ground operation, when your own citizens are at risk. But I guess thats not what the design is for that operation. The people on the ground, who destest the militants, are already questioning who are these militants, when Army is not taking any action against them and shooting in the dark, almost every time. Who is instigating these actions? Someone must be pushing soldiers to take such actions isn't it? while the militants are still on rise and controlling 80% of Swat.

Furthermore, tell me how hard it is to stop the FM radio broadcast of Fazullulah? why it hasn't been stopped for past few years, even now? Why they are letting him freely move and conduct press conferences?

Our armed forces deserve kudos for being so tolerant and actually taking a step by step approach to minimise civilian deaths.I would like to know if any other armed force in the world would have been so precautious in such situations as are ours!

Tolerant? when was the last time you visited Swat in past one year? when was the last time you stepped in Bajaur? When was the last time you went to Waziristan? Perhaps you need a desperate trip to these areas, if you are a fact finder to see if you can replace the word "tolerance" with something else.

The situation in Swat has nothing to do with the army OR the WOT..(when have the afghan taliban ever owned Fazllulah...he never even was a part of the afghan jihad.Using the taliban idealogy and being funded by external aygencies doesnt qualify)It has everything to do of taking advantage of the army's engagement in fata and a failed political system to create more mayhem.When u send in the army dont expect them to sit like lame ducks!

Yes I agree, Talibans do not own TTP neither TNSM. So if external agencies are funding them, why Pakistan is not taking the step to shut the support for U.S./NATO, which are obviously supporting them? Is the AID we are getting better than losing the entire province or bucthering our own people?

And nobody asked for the operation in the first place. People were dealing with militants on their own (whether living with them or ousting them, as we clearly have seen the other sorrounding areas in Swat, where there's no militancy whatsoever). The militancy went on rise when the enemy's design of pushing army into civilian areas for conducting operation was implemented.

It's clear as day light that wherever army went, that area is destroyed, and wherever they didn't its calm and quiet. So who is pushing our army to conduct the operation if not on WoT? who is asking for more and more carnage and attacks by paying is 100s of millions of dollars in cash and military hardware? who is engaging the army in a catch-22 situation? Why the army, after 2 years of operation, couldn't control the militancy, rather increased it?

Please do answer all these questions.

If the armed forces r so wrong,how come the ppl of swat prefer to becum refugees rather than take up arms and join in with fazllullah?

People of Swat did not become refugees. It was people of Bajaur, who were made refugees so army can openly deal with militants by razing everything in their sight.

And no, Army operation is not wrong (there's enemy there, we all know that), but the action is wrong. The process is wrong. The strategy is wrong. It requires a surgical operation, not aerial bombardment for God's sake. Not tanks shelling. Not mortar fires. It's not that militants are trneched somewhere and wearing uniforms and the bombs know the militants names and they fell upon them. it's a guerrilla war, you have to deal with it according to the rules of engagement. You can't just go ahead and bomb entire area to kill a ***. But this is what army is doing. This is what they did in Balochistan, this is wha they did in Lal Masjid and this is what they are doing in NWFP.

It's not just collateral of civilian lives, but property damage, businesses destroyed, people's entire livlihood had been crippled with endless curfews (for them not for the militants since they can roam freely and bomb whatever they want).

It's a situation of surgical operation, not an all out open war. It will only create further hatred for Army and will make much easier for the enemy to cash in the opportunity, just as they did in Bangladesh. We can't afford to make another mistake like that. We can't.

 

[Metallic]

Sunday, February 01, 2009

MENGORA: The number of dead bodies recovered from different areas of Swat has reached 30 while 15 people have died including women and children as a result of mortar shells landing on houses.

Firing on an ambulance also killed two paramedics.

According to sources, 20 bodies of unidentified people are lying in crop fields in Charbagh area which could not be lifted due to a curfew in the area.

Unknown persons opened fire at an ambulance engaged in shifting the bodies from Charbagh, killing two paramedics and wounding another.

Eight unidentified bodies were also recovered from Sangota Shakar Tangay, an area in the outskirts of Mengora.

Dead bodies of a police constable and another unidentified man were also recovered Rahimabad area of Mengora and Hazara area of Kabal respectively.

Security forces pounded militants hideouts in Charbagh. Some of the shells missed target and landed on civilian houses, killing 9 people including 3 women and 2 children.

One militant was killed in clash with security forces in Sarbanda.

People have started moving to safer locations due to unrest in Matta, Charbagh and Kabal.

 

[metalfalcon]

I hope this ends as soon as possible, people are sandwiched between Taliban and Pakistan army.

 

[RabzonKhan]

Nightmare in paradise

By Irfan Husain
January 31, 2009

IT was around this time of the year when I last visited Swat over a decade ago. An old friend from Turkey was with me, and we shivered in the cold at the archaeology department rest house where we stayed.

The peaks overlooking the valley were covered in snow, as was the countryside as we drove along the partly frozen Swat river. Recalling various trips to the magical valley over the years, I am sorry for all those who can no longer venture there. But apart from the many tourists who are forever denied the beauty of the place, I pity the people of Swat who have been so badly let down by the Pakistani state. Tens of thousands have been forced to flee their homes as Swat descends deeper into chaos and despair.

‘Mullah Radio’ was the name given to Maulana Fazlullah for his daily FM broadcasts in which he called, among other things, for people to stop their children from getting anti-polio shots. According to him, the government teams going around immunising kids against this dreaded disease were actually making them sterile. Terrified, the paramedics halted their efforts in Swat.

I wrote at the time that the government should immediately put a stop to the maulana’s illegal broadcasts. But this was before 9/11, at a time when Musharraf was wooing the mullahs and the jihadis. So Mullah Radio and his kind gathered strength and gained supporters, confident that the authorities would not lay a finger on them. And now that push has finally come to shove, the army has discovered that it does not have the muscle to displace the militants who have taken over Swat.

In a sobering piece on this page last week, Zubeida Mustafa underlined the plight of the people of Swat, and asked why there were no large protests against the killers who were terrorising the valley. Why not indeed? It is a sad fact that while we Pakistanis are (rightly) incensed over the recent assault on Gaza, and other attacks on Muslims by non-Muslims, we choose to turn a blind eye by even worse Muslim-on-Muslim atrocities.

Thus, most editorial writers, columnists and TV commentators reserve their fury and invective for western targets, while glossing over what Muslims are doing to their fellow Muslims. In Swat, there have been grisly beheadings and public executions. Every evening, Shah Doran broadcasts names on the militant hit-list, presumably on Mullah Radio’s old FM frequency. Nearly 200 girls’ schools have been blown up or torched. Scores of video rental shops and hair-cutting establishments have been attacked and forced to shut down. Women dare not leave their homes, and 80,000 girls have been deprived of an education.

Currently, some 4,000 militants are battling 12,000 troops for control of the valley, and thus far, the terrorists are winning. According to reporters who have been covering the conflict, our army has been reluctant to engage the enemy, preferring to lob artillery shells in the general direction of militant redoubts in the mountains. As soon as night falls, our soldiers retreat into their camps while the jihadis rule the valley. In their ranks are a large number of fighters with Central Asian features.

If this situation has been allowed to develop in Swat, an integral part of the Frontier Province, and not a tribal area, imagine what things must be like in Waziristan and Mohmand agencies. Clearly, things are rapidly spinning out of control, and the government cannot establish its writ over large parts of the country. Many efforts have been made to engage the terrorists in a dialogue. Each one has failed as the jihadis, sensing the weakness of the Pakistani state, and thriving on the support they get from so many TV talk-show hosts and their guests, go for the jugular.

Without wanting to cast doubts on the courage of our soldiers engaged in a difficult battle, I must question the tactics being deployed. Counter-insurgency operations are now a central part of the training many armies impart. But we have stuck to conventional warfare training, based on the assumption that our enemy is India. This one-dimensional approach has failed to equip our officers and soldiers with the tactics to beat the irregular but well-equipped forces they now face across the northwest.

But more than the inadequate military preparations that have handicapped us in our fight-back against the jihadis is the lack of a political consensus. With the country’s two biggest political parties, the PPP and the PML-N, locked in a bitter power struggle, those in power have little time to focus on the real danger facing Pakistan.

For its part, the media seems to be united on only one thing: hostility towards the West, and specifically, on criticism of the American drone attacks against militant targets in Fata. The truth few Pakistanis are willing to face is that almost every such missile attack has killed and wounded militants, both foreign and home-grown. And while there have been a number of civilians killed and hurt, this is the unfortunate price for providing shelter to terrorists. If this sounds callous, ponder over the alternatives: who else would go after these killers? As our army has demonstrated time and again, it has neither the capability, nor the intelligence, to rid us of these killers.

Our leaders, both in and out of uniform, have repeatedly said such attacks are ‘counter-productive’. So how about launching some ‘productive’ attacks that would convince the Americans (and us Pakistanis) that we are capable of fighting these jihadis on our own? Again, without wishing to belittle the courage or the sacrifices of our soldiers, we must recognise that so far, the war is going very badly for us.

At this stage of the battle, it is too late to pin the blame on the individuals and institutions responsible for having allowed this situation to develop. If we wish to turn the tide, different tactics are needed. One thing that might focus minds is for the army to organise trips to the battlefield for politicians and journalists. Let them share what the people of Swat are going through, even if for a couple of days. Perhaps then they might see where the real danger lies.

 

[ejaz007]

32 killed in Swat as military action intensifies
Monday, February 02, 2009
Forces claim killing 16 militants in 24 hours
By Musa Khankhel

MINGORA: Thirty-two persons, including three soldiers, were killed and 22 others sustained injures as the security forces intensified the operation in the Charbagh, Matta and Sangota areas of the Swat valley on Sunday.

In addition, the ISPR-run Swat Media Centre in Mingora claimed that the security forces have killed 16 militants during the last 24 hours. Locals said most of the people killed in Charbagh and Sangota during shelling were civilians, who were finding it difficult to move to safer places due to the perpetual curfew and escalating clashes.

They said the forces targeted the suspected positions of militants in Charbagh with artillery before consolidating their position in the town. Eight persons, including four women and two children, were killed and 16 others injured when mortar shells hit several houses in the area.

In Roshanabad area, two persons were shot dead by the security forces when they opened fire on them. Eight bodies of unknown people were retrieved from Shakar Tangay area of Sangota.

A mortar shell hit the house of Rahmat Ali in the Shakro area, killing five persons, including four women. Locals said their bodies could not be pulled out of the rubble due to shelling. A police constable Fazle Mannan, who was picked up by the militants on his way to Rahimabad police station in Mingora city, was shot dead on Sunday. His body was found near the police station. The body of an unidentified person was recovered from the Aligrama area of Kabal.

Two persons were killed in firing at ambulances belonging to Medicine Sans Frontiers and Edhi, which were shifting the injured to a hospital. Three officials also sustained injuries in the incident. Bodies of the slain officials were lying in Charbagh. The injured were writhing in pain but nobody could go near them.

It could not be ascertained as to who fired at the ambulances as militants and security forces blamed each other for the incident. Three personnel of the security forces were killed in a clash with the militants in the Sar Banda area of Matta Tehsil. During the clash, a militant was also killed which was confirmed by the Swat TTP spokesman.

Three more security personnel were injured during the militants’ attack on the FC camps in Kanju and Dherai. Both the sides traded fire in Kanju, which continued for quite some time, injuring a person, Ali Azam.

The Dherai camp was attacked with rockets, which resulted in injuries to two personnel. In the Parri area of Barikot, councillor Muhammad Hanif was gunned down by unidentified assailants. Meanwhile, due to the continuing curfew in Manglawar, Charbagh and Sangota, people were forced to stay indoors, braving severe food shortages.

In Manglawar, 400 students of a seminary have been unable to move out due to the curfew and are facing a shortage of food. The displaced people complained that no camps had been set up for them in Mingora or other parts of the district.

32 killed in Swat as military action intensifies

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

if PA were to train a portion of its troops for counter-insurgency (COIN), more suspicions would be raised regarding the west and Pakistan, most likely by fanatics on this forum. there was a plan for trainers coming from the US to train PA troops in counter-insurgency, that plan was dropped after the NATO strikes on FC and PA soldiers and increased drone attacks. does anyone know if the plan has been brought up again?

 

[Contrarian]

That plan has not been dropped. AFAIK there are still US trainers in Pakistan.

 

[batmannow]

Whose going to be sent in FC or regular army?

I GUSS, no need for FC, at this point!

 

[Anwar2]

enigma947:

“”Can you see how the heart of a soldier beats when he listen on radio people chanting and laughing on the Eid day and he is sitting at a post 20000 M above your homes, inside a bunker with minus 50 degrees of temperature around him.””

Probably you mean 20,000 feet not 20,000 meters!! The focus of my post was not the soldiers or junior officers, it was the senior officers in the Rank of Brigadier and above. The soldiers and junior officers command respect for what they endure. But you have stretched it a bit too far. With the possible exception of some posts in Siachin above 16,000 the rest of the places you mentioned are inhibited by Pakistanis; villagers, subsistance farmers, herders. Bagh, Keil are wonderful places to be. Deployment at Kohlu, Spezand, Kharan is part of the unfortunate enslavement strategy for Balochistan.


“”How lame of you. A full Colonel has already on the last job, none exepct a very few become Brigs from Colonels. The cream is promoted to Brigs directly from Lt Cols””.

It not few those make it to the rank of Brigadier. Its more like a herd. More than 450 to the last count. Probably the US Army does not have so many one-star Generals!


“”Getting a plot after spending 80% of their lives away from their families””.

Rather than paying a bribe to a timid old person who has already spent 80% of his career, the money is better spent on enhancing the paycheck of the soldiers and junior officers who really have to endure hardships.

“”Dude the Army can't afford to linger on old books and doctrines. They have to change or else the adversary will take over!!””

The adversaries have already taken over without firing a shot! The Army is now serving as a camp follower of the USA, and has willingly reconciled with the primacy of India in South Asia. The prescribed emphasis on turn out, pageantry on parade ground and motor skills has not changed. Once confronted by a bit sophisticated threat the instinctive reaction is instant submission.

The rot runs pretty deep at the star-officer ranks.
1. The long term cure is to implement a 4-year science or engineering degree as a pre-requisite for commission in the rank of 2nd Lieutenant or Pilot officer. This is exactly the standard for the US Army and NATO forces.
2. The short term cure is to reduce the 2-star and above officers to 30-40, and one star below 100. This will ensure that they have less time for the antics of Zarrar Azeem or Rashid Qureshi.

 

[Pashtun]

The problem of our country is, our masses perception is easy to control. We are easy to be manipulated and we are easy to duped into believing in certain entities and then defending it with all the valour and vigour while the entity gets away with all the crimes by using us and our emotions.

Moreover, we are completely numb. So numb that we have associations and for those associations we deny everything in the process and act as ignorant as we can, thinking we are right, while the entity gets away with all the crimes by using us and our emotions.

However, some people on the matter of that sham training F.C. by sending trainers to our country (read: in reality, opening a strong US base in Pakistan) and then popping their head out of sand with an opinion that that thing never happened because they think people will say the Some elite officials of PA are working for United States. Well damn right they are.

The so called trainers for anti-insurgency did came under the cover, unoticed and un-publicised, if people already don't know. The fascility is at Tarbela, many square KMs big.

Approximately 20 kilometers from Islamabad lies Tarbella, the brigade headquarters of Pakistan's Special Operation Task Force (SOTF). Recently, 300 American officials landed at this facility, with the official designation as a "training advisory group", according to documents seen by Asia Times Online.

However, high-level contacts claim this is not as simple as a training program.
Now, the US has bought a huge plot of land at Tarbella, several square kilometers, according to sources directly handling the project. Recently, 20 large containers arrived at the facility. They were handled by the Americans, who did not allow any Pakistani officials to inspect them.

Given the size of the containers, it is believed they contain special arms and ammunition and even tanks and armored vehicles - and certainly have nothing to do with any training program.

There is little doubt in the minds of those familiar with the American activities at Tarbella that preparations are being made for an all-out offensive in North-West Frontier Province against sanctuaries belonging to the Taliban and al-Qaeda led by bin Laden. Pakistani security sources maintain more American troops will arrive in the coming days.

Asia Times Online :: South Asia news, business and economy from India and Pakistan

So we just let a foreign army create a base in our country, to kill our own people on the name of "terrorism" that they created in the first place. That too they are dictating us what to do and how to do it, while being in our country, on our soil, they are barring people to inspect what they are bringing in, they are barring people to get into fascility (that is apparently for training) and they are bringing equipment that has nothing to do with training.

Who is letting all this happening and why?

 

[Xeric]

enigma947:

With the possible exception of some posts in Siachin above 16,000 the rest of the places you mentioned are inhibited by Pakistanis; villagers, subsistance farmers, herders. Bagh, Keil are wonderful places to be.

Oh wow!
Wonderful places, that is nice. Hats off to your optimism!!

A person who was born in the jungles of somalia has to live there, though for many it would be impossible. Similarly a Pakistani who was born at the above mentioned places has to live there and has to make his living from that place(which many people do), but my point of concern is that people like you who live in behrain and other people who stay in their home towns since the dawn of the day and the other people who go to their furnished offices (though they might not be paid as 'furnishly') and come straight back exactly at the time their office hours ends, don't have to face the hardships as the personnels from the Defence Services have to!!! Got it, thick head!!??

A Police Officer also starts his carrier as a 17 grade officer with his BPS similar to that one of an officer from Air Force or Army, but he dont have to live in Siachin, Bagh, etc etc. So please open your head and try to understand what is being siad!

Deployment at Kohlu, Spezand, Kharan is part of the unfortunate enslavement strategy for Balochistan.

Well, you are right here!
A cantt was made in Pano Aqil for the enslavement of people from Pano Aqil, Okara cantt was also made for the same purpose, Malir cantt, Pshawar cantt, Sakradu cantt, hyderabad cantt, Walton cantt, Quetta cantt, Jehlum cantt, Gujranwala cantt and many many many more were JUST made to enslave the people from those areas, moreover they were also killed and slaughtered by the army.

Mr ignorant, when the cantt was planned in Pano Aqil there was so much of resistance that the Army was required to make use of tanks, but now when the cantt was made and due to the construction of cantt and other facilities (for the citizens) and as per the requirements (for the Army) like railway station, water supply points, grid station, etc etc were made, and moreover when the Army started spending in that area(ofcourse thousands of people living inside the cantt have to purchase everything for living to include food, clothings, electronics etc etc) the face of Pano Aqil was changed.
Moreover, if you ever heard of Nowshehra cantt, that city is only "alive" because of the presence of the Army and Air Force(although it is specific to Risalpur). People from nowshehra never even had a proper concept of transport, now you can get to pindi and farther away from nowshehra whenever you want and not to mention the establishment of Daewo Bus Stop near an Army School, people of nowshehra are much more comfortable now. And this fact was proved when you find people from that place talking high of the army and thanking the army for what it has done!! But what can i say, people as lame as you would never understand and would only behave and pollute others as the people of Pano Aqil did before they were "enlightened"

It not few those make it to the rank of Brigadier. Its more like a herd. More than 450 to the last count. Probably the US Army does not have so many one-star Generals!

Go get your figures right and also try to post something authenticate!

Rather than paying a bribe to a timid old person who has already spent 80% of his career, the money is better spent on enhancing the paycheck of the soldiers and junior officers who really have to endure hardships.

What the hell, cant you come up with something real and logical!
What exactly did you bring out by your above post? Just writing it for the sake of it!! If you have finished with 'ideas' go rest in peace!!
And BTW, the soldiers and junior officers are quite happy with their pay checks, as they have large amount of 'shame'

The adversaries have already taken over without firing a shot! The Army is now serving as a camp follower of the USA, and has willingly reconciled with the primacy of India in South Asia. The prescribed emphasis on turn out, pageantry on parade ground and motor skills has not changed. Once confronted by a bit sophisticated threat the instinctive reaction is instant submission.

i have already asked this question from other people like you on this forum (but the were answer less) lets give you a chance: What do you suggest us to do? Both the govt and the Defence Services?

The rot runs pretty deep at the star-officer ranks.
1. The long term cure is to implement a 4-year science or engineering degree as a pre-requisite for commission in the rank of 2nd Lieutenant or Pilot officer. This is exactly the standard for the US Army and NATO forces.
2. The short term cure is to reduce the 2-star and above officers to 30-40, and one star below 100. This will ensure that they have less time for the antics of Zarrar Azeem or Rashid Qureshi.

i wish you had joined the Army and reached the top slot, these "Revolutions in Military Affairs" as mentioned by you had been quite acceptable then, but Sorry as you are far far away from even being qualified for the above like suggestions so please keep your dreams for some other military!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pashtun - that article was from sep 2008. I think if there was any credibility to this story of 'massive intervention in FATA/NWFP' it would have happened already.

Stop believing every conspiracy you hear in the media, and look for some semblance of credibility in sources to validate that which you do want to believe.

I still have to respond to your Lal Masjid posts in detail, but won't be able to for a bit as I focus on school.

These US COIN/SF trainers are supposed to be doing exactly that which you were berating the PA for not doing, moving away from heavy weapons/air strikes, and focusing on more 'surgical operations'. The PA trainers they train will then be utilized to train the FC.

The problem with our masses is indeed that they are very easy to control, succumbing to conspiracy theories left and right as is evident here.

I fail to see why you would oppose such a program of cooperation when it quite obviously seeks to build the very capacity/skills that you have argued should be employed in FATA/Swat.

 

[S-2]

Well, my respect for the Asia Times is less given the gross speculation surrounding the containers, the unattributed comments to a senior Pakistani official about access and the failure after all of this to follow the story.

I can only presume because, in retrospect, there was no story.

A.M. is exactly correct. Our MTT (Mobile Training Team) is at your SSG base. We are NOT training your combat forces but are instead instructing your primary trainers and program managers who will be working with your F.C.

If your SSG can't contain the American virus, nobody in Pakistan can.

I imagine it's off to Rawalpindi in super-secret M113 GAVINs secreted in those containers just as soon as we can free up Mike Sparks from all his other demanding globe-saving endeavors.