Swat Operation II

[Anwar2]

enigma947:
“” Many of the Army Officers (to include Officers of other services) are "chosen". By this i mean they are selected through a very tough process.””

The word “chosen” is bordering on comedy! Be serious please. Yes, the armed forces have a pretty stringent selection process. It used to be very fair too (used to be!). Basically the intake is about average, or a little above.

PMA, and the various schools (Artillery, Armor etc) impart pretty tough and stringent programs. The emphasis is discipline, obedience and motor functions. The syllabi however are so archaic that someone from 20th PMA Long course will hardly have any surprise if he rejoins the PMA now!!.

To be fair, till the rank of Colonel, there is a great degree of dedication; life of a king on frugal salary.

The rot starts when one attains the rank of Colonel. This is when the next rank (Brigadier) is in sight, along with the Plots and Perks worth about $ 200K-300K. After gaining one star, the emphasis shifts towards more plots, more lucrative assignments and more juicy deals.

A complex give-and-take web governs most promotions to MG and above (barring a few true geniuses, who don’t last very long anyways). Some lucky souls end up in the procurement and evaluation chain, and can stay forever if they respect the complex system of distribution.

After having risen to select club of Lt Gen or Corp Commanders most follow the dictum of Lt Gen Zarrar Azeem, or worse the club of MG Rashid Quershi!!. All the slavish semi-literate Generals (the majority lacking self confidence) need an early retirement. They try to cover their inadequacies with an exaggerated elitism. In its worst format they substitute the goal of National Defense with phony “war on terror” against Pakistanis. They “conquer” their own soil with zeal as if they are capturing Zoji-la pass. Then they talk of “New Strategies” and New Doctrines learnt at a Party-school Staff college.

The forces are badly in need of professional reforms. It should begin with replacing the trashy two-year BA degree at PMA with an accredited 4-year BS in Science, Engineering, Computers, or Physics. Better education is the key.

 

[Xeric]

You are more ignorant than my other friend on this thread!

enigma947:
“” Many of the Army Officers (to include Officers of other services) are "chosen". By this i mean they are selected through a very tough process.””

The word “chosen” is bordering on comedy! Be serious please. Yes, the armed forces have a pretty stringent selection process. It used to be very fair too (used to be!). Basically the intake is about average, or a little above.

i am sure you got kicked of the ISSB, that's why you speak so 'high' of the selection process and the intake.
Ya average or 'little' (i like that word) average has been protecting this country since the star.

PMA, and the various schools (Artillery, Armor etc) impart pretty tough and stringent programs. The emphasis is discipline, obedience and motor functions. The syllabi however are so archaic that someone from 20th PMA Long course will hardly have any surprise if he rejoins the PMA now!!.

Lolzzz... have you ever been inside that place!!
i can assure you as compared to other govt institutions the Army is the most dynamic. Dude the Army can't afford to linger on old books and doctrines. They have to change or else the adversary will take over!!

To be fair, till the rank of Colonel, there is a great degree of dedication; life of a king on frugal salary.

And they are proud of their 'frugal' salary! Unlike people like you who run out if the country to earn more than the frugal thing.

The rot starts when one attains the rank of Colonel. This is when the next rank (Brigadier) is in sight,

How lame of you. A full Colonel has already on the last job, none exepct a very few become Brigs from Colonels. The cream is promoted to Brigs directly from Lt Cols.

along with the Plots and Perks worth about $ 200K-300K. After gaining one star, the emphasis shifts towards more plots, more lucrative assignments and more juicy deals.

Getting a plot after spending 80% of their lives away from their families.

Getting diseases like AMS(Acute Mountain Sickness), HACE(High Altitude Cerebral Edema and (HAPE) High altitude pulmonary edema after spending two years at Siachin.

Staying at places no never heard of. Working in environments where no normal human can survive.

Serving at stations like Bhagh, Kale, Kashmir and Siachin under constant threat of enemy fire, and not knowing while palying cards at night(ofcourse they don't sleep) whehther they are going to see the Sun the next morning.

Carrying the bodies of their comrades, with whom they have spent the hardest moments of their lives, on their shoulders.

Getting frost bites.

Have you ever been to places like Pano Aqil, Lora Lai, Dera Nawab, Maikhtar, Kohlo, Pir Koh, Spezand and many more where no other human lives but they live there. Officers of 17 and above grades, sitting in their worn out tents without light and heat. Sleeping with a tones of clothing in super summers just to wade away the mosquitoes.

Can you imagine the toil of a husband who cant reach to her wife during her delivery!!

Can you imagine the pain of the son who cant reach the funeral of his father!!

Can you feel the pain of a brother unable to attend the marriage of her only sister!!

Can you see the glow in the eyes of a soldier standing on a post with his G-3 on his shoulder on 'Chand Raat" when people like you are enjoying and grazing girls in super markets.

Can you see how the heart of a soldier beats when he listen on radio people chanting and laughing on the Eid day and he is sitting at a post 20000 M above your homes, inside a bunker with minus 50 degrees of temperature around him.

Can you see how the motivated a soldier gets when he is getting artillery fire from the indian at Siachin while he was just planning to have a bowl of sweet made from snow bitter water on Eid day!!

Can you feel the honor and the rush of the blood when a soldier tells his commander on being asked on Eid day if he feels alone, and he replies yes sir i do feel alone, but when i see my rifle! i hug it and tells it that smile you and me are not alone!!

No dude you can't!!!!!!
You can't feel the pain, sorrow, enjoyment, honor and motivation that these people feel!!! Never ever!!! Never!

If now he gets a plot after serving for 30 years at an institution i think it is not a bad deal!!
Please compare others in the civil sectors with the same qualifications and experience. They start with those pays that the military people earn after 10 years of service.

Army need motivated souls not mongers like you!
Who sit away and chant!!
It is therefore that the Army kicks people like you out in the very beginning so that you can go and disgrace some other country!!
And who the hell are you to talk about the reforms within the Army???

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Pashtun:

And about "terrorists" in Lal masjid. I don't think you can use such term "terrorist" for them

They threatened suicide bombings allacross Pakistan, and they terrorized the people in Islamabad by attacking people and businesses they judged 'immoral'. They also refused to follow the orders of the State when it came time for them to be answerable for their 'criminal activity' (if you prefer criminal instead of terrorist) and paid the price like a dacoit would in an encounter.

They were given a week and a half for 'dialog', they refused to surrender and chose to fight it out and killed a colonel of the SSG during the time that 'dialog' was being attempted. Your comments on this count are nothing but a distortion and obfuscation of the facts.

People who oppose 'wrongs in society' shoudl not act like thugs and use force to try and change society to fit their vision. But using force and illegal activity to change society to fit their world view is exactly what the Mullah's and their followers in the LM did, and when they did that they became criminals and terrorists.

Not every individual who is 'pissed of" and 'tired' of the ills of society is a terrorist, but those who engaged in actions such as those at the LM are indeed criminals and terrorists.

 

[Xeric]

Pashtun:


They threatened suicide bombings allacross Pakistan, and they terrorized the people in Islamabad by attacking people and businesses they judged 'immoral'. They also refused to follow the orders of the State when it came time for them to be answerable for their 'criminal activity' (if you prefer criminal instead of terrorist) and paid the price like a dacoit would in an encounter.

They were given a week and a half for 'dialog', they refused to surrender and chose to fight it out and killed a colonel of the SSG during the time that 'dialog' was being attempted. Your comments on this count are nothing but a distortion and obfuscation of the facts.

People who oppose 'wrongs in society' shoudl not act like thugs and use force to try and change society to fit their vision. But using force and illegal activity to change society to fit their world view is exactly what the Mullah's and their followers in the LM did, and when they did that they became criminals and terrorists.

Not every individual who is 'pissed of" and 'tired' of the ills of society is a terrorist, but those who engaged in actions such as those at the LM are indeed criminals and terrorists.

i have told them exactly the same thing, but they are so lame that they cant accept the truth execpt just uttering the BS again again.

i must ask them why don't they go and counter the "bad" and ills of our society??? Why don't they make their own Jihadi group and counter govts rit and demand all the brothels to be shut off within Pakistan, or for that matter why don't they go and fight with the freedom fighters in Kashmir and Palestine. Or on the other hand join one of the terrorists in Wana or Swat?

Ya sitting away from home and chanting on a forum is quite easy i must say!!!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Apparently the media was very controlled. There were multiple reports, multiple photographs, multiple individual interviews of the families and many private channels aired the interviews. I watched them and I believe many others would have too.

I don't buy the argument that the media was controlled - we all saw what happened when the GoP shut down GEO for refusing to follow its instruction on content.

In addition, had the media been controlled you would not have seen any of the families on TV bar those praising the military operation, nor woudl you have seen any of the criticism of the operation that we saw, so your argument of 'media control' is nothing more that speculation and completely contrary to the facts and environment that existed at the time.

This is what one of the news says abut the parents and families of the affected, close to 600 entertained? thats a large number tho you came up with 1500, but obviously we are working on hypothesis here with whatever information available:

Cheema said the government is taking great strides and making every possible effort to facilitate the parents and relatives of Lal Masjid students.
The spokesman said that over 600 people had been entertained at the facilitation cell at sports complex till date, and had submitted 80 applications regarding their dear ones.
He said out of the 80, 64 applications have been referred for DNA tests and five people were referred to the hospital as their relatives were under treatment there, while one has been identified dead by National Database Registration Authority (NADRA) record. “47 claimants have gone through the DNA tests, so far,” he added.
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

This may have already been answered, but this article posted by you (highlighted section) confirms the death count issued by the GoP.

This is what other independent sources say:

The actual casualty figure still cannot be independently verified. According to some reports, Abdul Sattar Edhi was asked by the government to arrange for as much as four hundred burial shrouds. According to the latest government accounts, no hostages were found inside the mosque premises contradicting its own intelligence reports that women and children were being held against their will. Numerous accounts of witnesses seeing the mosque compound littered with hundreds of bodies. The media personnel were invited to witness the burials of large number of deceased from the Red Mosque. According to them, many coffins contained multiple severed limbs and it was hard to judge if only one victim was being buried in each coffin.
NationMaster - Encyclopedia: Lal Masjid

The only thing in this report is some unknown eyewitnesses claiming 'hundreds of bodies strewn around'. Please, don't insult everyones intelligenc with garbage like this as validation of such a horrible claim.

And that aside, a lot of reports aired in the aftermath of storming the masjid, and seeing the mutilated (burned) bodies and limbs of people, who were ID'd with DNA by those over 600 people came to identify their dead (news up there), is saying something else than what you are saying.

I mean we all know its hard to believe in the official figures, when government is involved herself in the carnage. It's a common sense that people involve will never tell you the fact, isn't it?

Again, those people only filed 80 applications, which is in line with the government figures.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

“Terrorist Propaganda” is easiest way out of a bind, and when you run out of ideas.

According to our dear friends the human toll of Lal Masjid is nothing to write home about. Those 300 odd girl students actually did not exist. Such insensitivity and callousness does not bode well for the nation.

Only the Pak Army, Intelligence agencies and select officials had access to the destroyed Lal Masjid after the operation. I am sure they made video recordings of all the proceedings, prior to being demolished into an open clearing. The only visible evidence was the 74 coffins full of mutilated burnt human remains that were ready for handover to an estimated 500 claimants!

The Army is in the best position to release the recordings to the nations and illustrate with the analysis of the remains that hundreds of girl students did not die in the carnage. That would also help Musharraf sahib to clear his name.

The fact remains that Lal Masjid tragedy was a turning point for the people of Swat, Bajaur and select districts in NWFP. It is deep wounds that can nether be forgiven nor forgotten.

It is terrorist propaganda when you cannot prove your claims, and your claims serve to further the aims of the terrorists.

You failed to validate your point one again, and unless either you or Pashtun can come up with credible sources, this baseless slandering and terrorist propaganda stops right here.

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

I can see the thread filled with conspiracy theories and paranoia, army this...army that. if army fights against militants for conducting suicide bombing raids all over Pakistan, they are "slaves of the west". if they don't fight these militants, we instead hear "oh! the army isn't doing anything to help us while these militants cut our heads off".

if the army decides to shy away from politics like it's doing right now, people will blame the army for not stopping drone attacks when in reality, the civilian govt. orders them not to and has tacit deals with the Americans on the drone attacks. if the civilian govt. coalition decides to have a peace deal with the militants, steered by the elected ANP, and the militants go on a rampage, slaughtering everyone, again the army is blamed.

Not only the army, but the ISI is blamed for supporting the militant groups. However, when talking about the war on terror, the ISI is maligned for helping the americans against the militants. On and on, in a perpetual cycle, we hear the same conspiracy theories, ignorance spread. People don't function on logic and common sense, instead the Pakistani people-all of them-spread gossip, conspiracy theories, and paranoia.

if they don't like something, they will protest and burn cars and trash buildings, mob mentality prevails. This is exactly why I stress the term "jahel awam", it's because the enemies of Pakistan don't have to do anything at all, the people itself, army or civilian, will tear it apart. I don't say that the army isn't corrupt, no there are plently of corrupt officers in the army. however, most of this corruption is only focused at land and plot distribution. Only a few handful of officers would cash in on arms deals, but even that is rare.

the army as an institution still functions properly, the only working institution in Pakistan. instead of maligning the entire army as a whole, people should still be thankful even after all that has happened in the past seven years. the army is the only thing holding the US and India back from attacking Pakistan. if we had no army, or pathetic and weak army like the Iraqi army that surrendered almost immediately waving white flags in the air, can you imagine what Pakistan would have been like? would you be comfortable having US or indian soldiers raping and impregnating your women, killing your children, for a decade?

you guys don't know what a real oppressive army is, you guys don't know what a real dictatorship is. A real oppressive army for example, would be the Burmese army. they keep the entire civilian population hostage, absolutely no democracy. if you think our army is corrupt, you should see how their generals live, owning Lamborghinis and Ferraris. Burmese soldiers use women as workers to transport some of their equipment by day, and rape the women as sex slaves by night. If you really want to hear about a real oppressive army, why not look across the border. The indian army has raped thousands of women over the course of its history. all the jahel Pakistanis don't even know how many muslim women have been raped in Kashmir, how many children have been killed, how many fathers and sons are missing. You guys don't even know how they rape women in Assam and how they raped women all across india, especially when it came to separatist movements.

Click here if you want to know about women in Assam, tired of rape, protesting naked. out of courtesy, I made sure this website doesn't have pictures.
Women Rage Against 'Rape' in Northeast India

india's separatist movements slowly die out because the indian army rapes women and kills childred to punish the population. they show no compassion towards their own people. they don't bother negotiating with their own people like the Pakistani army does, they'd rather blow up one of the holiest shrines for Sikhs with a tank! yet, NO ONE from india speaks badly against their army, NO ONE. you guys don't know anything about oppression. this is why I don't have any hope for people anymore, they are pathetic and useless.

 

[RabzonKhan]

Sir, I didn't get the meaning of this post. What were you trying to explain or pointing out?

Is it that you are thinking I am trying to build a case for militants? I hope not. Can you be little more elaborative as to what are you extracting or understanding from my posts and what are you countering as your counter argument? Thank you

Pushtun, actually that post was not directed at you personally. I have gone through your posts. I know your views on Swat issue and I think you know mine, so, I think on this topic we'll just have to respectfully agree to disagree.

 

[Kasrkin]

How come you can even say that PA/ISI should have made sure they don't cross the border, when they supported them in the first place and provided all the santuaries? Haqqani to Hekmatyar, they are still Pakistan's assets.

I swear to God I don't understand this new breed of people. People like you Pashtun, hate Pakistan and PA so much that you are unreasonable. On one hand you accuse the PA of being hand in hand with and providing sanctuaries to those who we have declared to be terrorists. And on the other hand you accuse us of being 'too hard' and killing our people in counter-terrorism efforts?

So technically you fully support Indian propaganda and on the other hand you're an outlet for terrorist rhetoric as well? What a contradiction, on second thought, not really but what a technical contradiction never the less. Whatever you hear that makes Pakistan out as the ‘bad guy’ you’re willing to believe and preach, even if morally it makes no sense. Where is your loyalty? Down the gutter that’s where.

This new breed of Mullah on one had demonizes the PA for protecting their country-men from Al-Qaeda, but on the other hand they rant about western and even Indian democracy standards as if it’s the best thing that hit humanity. Whichever way they look, Pakistan is never good enough for them.

They’re people like this in every country. If they’re too many of these people that country crumbles in chaos and invasion and faithless disorder. The country with less people like this is able to rise in a coherent, honorable and proud fashion, providing a good life of justice and peace and security for its people and is able to make a mark on history.

Why do these people never want to serve the Pakistan that is? Why do they say they’ll be loyal only if Pakistan is remade in a twisted image for them? Being nation of 166 million, Pakistan has a lot of useless junk around. Liabilities that keep us from advancing either way. The public is confused, they lack vision. There is no one to tackle or even counter this corrosively reckless rhetoric and the politicians themselves capitalize on it, so we end up with people like Zardari as president.

 

[TruthSeeker]

^^^^^ Excellent exposition of a patriotic Pakistani. Would that all Pakistanis gave their Army the benefit of the doubt. The PA has the most difficult job of any army in the world right now. They need the support and prayers of their people. Not a bunch of overwrought emotional garbage heaped on them. Lal Masjid was the fault of the misguided mullahs who ran the place. The Army behaved honorably and did what needed to be done for Pakistan. It amazes me that some here cannot understand that the State has to use violence sometimes because the behavior of human beings to their fellow man sometimes leaves no other alternative. Innocents may be killed in the process. It cannot be helped!

 

[orion]

Pushtoon these fellows are mostly are serving armed forces or ex armed personel,problem lies in their training institute .

I remember when once i appreared in ISSB selection officer asked do you have girl friend?

Shame full and disgusting question that girl friend is sister or daughter of any muslim brother.We need to change that mind set which is injecting poision of western values in our young generation.

In islamic society if any girl have illegal relation with any person ,both deserve death sentance as per islamic law.

If u think thats shameful then here's a 'shocker'...My cozin was asked during his ISSB this question...u walk into the room and see your sister lying naked on the sofa.Whats ur reaction?
He replied that he would quickly run over,pick her up and take her to his mother,who must have placed her there after a bath and ask her too quickly dress her in case she catches a cold.Afterall she is just 6 months old!
Needless to say he has a great career going in the army and is a ghazi(fought in kargil)
The fault does not lie in the training institution,it lies in ur perception.And thats what they r concerned with most!

The army is fighting its own ppl in swat? Is Fazullah and his goons actually considered our own after they choose to target their own security personal,impose a parallel system based own their own ideology of morality,destroying livelihoods by disturbing the peace of the valley and bombing the poor ppl of swat back to the stone ages (educational institutes) and raging gureilla warfare,which I consider to be the most cowardly type of warfare?

Collateral damage...how can u avoid that in circumstances when the enemy decides to hide behind the innocent population and rage warfare from within the civilians?

Our armed forces deserve kudos for being so tolerant and actually taking a step by step approach to minimise civilian deaths.I would like to know if any other armed force in the world would have been so precautious in such situations as are ours!

The situation in Swat has nothing to do with the army OR the WOT..(when have the afghan taliban ever owned Fazllulah...he never even was a part of the afghan jihad.Using the taliban idealogy and being funded by external aygencies doesnt qualify)It has everything to do of taking advantage of the army's engagement in fata and a failed political system to create more mayhem.When u send in the army dont expect them to sit like lame ducks!

If the armed forces r so wrong,how come the ppl of swat prefer to becum refugees rather than take up arms and join in with fazllullah?

 

[M_Saint]

Lal Masjid was the worst of the worst decisions our army have ever made. It was the turning point of the things now happening in our country. People from as far as Southern Punjab came and blew Mariott, and are fighting alongside some militants against our Army in Swat. Why? because of the aftermath of the lal masjid. That incident have destroyed our country, believe it or not.

Agreeing with you completely and commanding you on your true understanding of ground reality, I want to ask what is your take on the notion that army is equally or more actively facilitating further break up of Pakistan? I have heard that militants are forewarned before OPPS are launched and only it alienate locals, who in the long run is bound to become de-tasteful of nation's integrity. It looks like new 'Bangladesh model' has been created by IND and its allies with more vigor, resources and vehement to let PAK to erode further and become toothless. Some developments like Mr. 10% agreeing on ANP naming NWFP as Pakhtunwala, dividing Baluchistan into 6 divisions, Opening of new supply routes from Afghanistan to Iranian Port and stopping fund on missile development completely fit in that plan. And Obama's new approach toward normalizing relation with Iran gives more clarity toward the murder of Pakistani nation. What do you say about it?

 

[Kasrkin]

I remember when once i appreared in ISSB selection officer asked do you have girl friend?

Shame full and disgusting question that girl friend is sister or daughter of any muslim brother.We need to change that mind set which is injecting poision of western values in our young generation.

That’s not the reason he asked you. He wanted to see how you would react in time of stress or shock. Were you calm, collected, unmoving and calculating or did you get all emotional and upset and start mumbling? Or worse tried to give the major a lecture? Or did you get all excited and tried to show off and brag about your girl friend? He wanted to check your reaction and through it study you.

He asked a simple question. He wanted to see if you were clear headed, you should've given him a factual answer. Yes sir or No sir. They ask this particular question (and much more) every single time. Any ex-ISSB person will tell you. You should've been prepared.

In PMA the sexes are divided not only through a matter of distance (there is a soldier on guard in front of the girls mess 24/7) but also through a matter of age. Female cadets are older at around 24-27. This has been done with particular benefits in mind. I could tell you more about this but it might be deemed inappropriate here. Suffice to say that sex is probably the last thing on mind of a cadet in PMA or any other ‘training institute’.

 

[kidwaibhai]

Agreeing with you completely and commanding you on your true understanding of ground reality, I want to ask what is your take on the notion that army is equally or more actively facilitating further break up of Pakistan? I have heard that militants are forewarned before OPPS are launched and only it alienate locals, who in the long run is bound to become de-tasteful of nation's integrity. It looks like new 'Bangladesh model' has been created by IND and its allies with more vigor, resources and vehement to let PAK to erode further and become toothless. Some developments like Mr. 10% agreeing on ANP naming NWFP as Pakhtunwala, dividing Baluchistan into 6 divisions, Opening of new supply routes from Afghanistan to Iranian Port and stopping fund on missile development completely fit in that plan. And Obama's new approach toward normalizing relation with Iran gives more clarity toward the murder of Pakistani nation. What do you say about it?

Ok first lets stop thinking that pakistan is going to slip further. the problem with bangladesh was the logistics in that war were next to impossible. we had a huge amount of enemy coast line between the two parts. The problem of logistics is not that great in balochistan. there is another side of the story that is demographics. bangladesh was huge when it came to population that is why it was hard to control it made up about 50 or more percent of pakistan at that point in time. the population in balochistan is agian very small and very dispersed. another reason why we lost east pakistan is that india intervened. this is never going to happen now because pakistan is a nuclear power. agian i would like to say pakistan is not breaking apart because of the crazy mullah at the lal masjid. if we think that fata will become separate because the people there actually support the talibs that sir is again wrong because there was a poll recently done in fata and presented in the senate which clearly states that the people in that region dont support the taliban infact they hate them there. we will eventually wrestle control of swat and fata because the taliban have nothing to offer except punishment. no employment opportunities and no option of their children having a better life then their parents. it will take some time for the army to take control because we are not that mobile while the enemy is pakistani army is still coming to grips with the situation. lets not forget this institution is designed to fight large conventional assault with proper formation where the enemy is clearly identifiable. i think in fata momentum is on our side and we are doing well there. as far as swat is concerned they are putting a new strategy in place and i am sure that things will look up.

 

[Pashtun]

Pashtun:


They threatened suicide bombings allacross Pakistan, and they terrorized the people in Islamabad by attacking people and businesses they judged 'immoral'.

Not they deemed immoral. The businesses were immoral. They attacked brothels, the stores selling pornography (remember the footage when they were burnning the CDs)? That is suppose be the job of guardians of Islamic Republic of Pakistan, but when they fail, the people take things in their control. That's how the world worked before, now and in future. That's how the revolutions take place. When the govt. fails to deliver, people take things in their own hands.

They also refused to follow the orders of the State when it came time for them to be answerable for their 'criminal activity' (if you prefer criminal instead of terrorist) and paid the price like a dacoit would in an encounter.

Yes I agree, as I said earlier, they should have not opted for that way, but then again they are not that smart either, they were common people, mostly uneducated. How should one be dealing with them? through bullets or through dialogue? if they did not have brains, we do, don't we? And yes, term them criminals but terrorists, man, what a word the west gave us. Call everyone a terrorist who doesn't budge to ones stupidity. hhhh!

They were given a week and a half for 'dialog', they refused to surrender and chose to fight it out and killed a colonel of the SSG during the time that 'dialog' was being attempted. Your comments on this count are nothing but a distortion and obfuscation of the facts.

It's a farce. I can clearly see you are believing on every bit of a single piece of information out there that Military dictatorship put up to hide their crime. The people inside wanted to negotiate, they were talking for God's sake. They wanted to relay their messages across, right before they were attacked.

Please dont interpret the facts. People inside the Masjid tried to negotiate but no one was there to listen their voice. The Army could have released the gases to make them unconcious and might have captured them. But why it didn't? because its not only Musharraf behind breaking the negotiations, but there is someone else behind the scene too. The orders were issued from the so called "Super Power". And Musharraf had to listen, because he had to prove it to them he is the man who can kill his own people for them.

They clearly broke down the negotiations when Ghazi asked for a safe passage. Here's the last call of Ghazi where he confirmed he want to negotiate and Musharraf refused - Lal Masjid Massacre | Video: The Last Demand of Maulana Abdul Rasheed Ghazi | Haqeeqat.Org

People who oppose 'wrongs in society' shoudl not act like thugs and use force to try and change society to fit their vision. But using force and illegal activity to change society to fit their world view is exactly what the Mullah's and their followers in the LM did, and when they did that they became criminals and terrorists.

Certainly not, but what can you do? For 60 years these ills are growing and growing and growing. The corruption is seeping through the bones of every single person. If you are powerful, you get the job done or else you are no one and most probably you will end up in Gitmo or Bagram airbase, doesn't matter even if you are a woman. If someone doesn't like you, you will be called a terrorist and sold to the Masters.

So what do you think people should do? over 600 missing. Thousands dead. One of the province is vigorously fighting for independence. The other is just attacked and destroyed.

How long do you think people will keep on asking for justice that the Chief Justice of Pakistan can't even get? And that situation, my friend, rise the people. And that's where people start taking things in their own hands.

Not every individual who is 'pissed of" and 'tired' of the ills of society is a terrorist, but those who engaged in actions such as those at the LM are indeed criminals and terrorists.

Not exactly. They are still pissed off people, taking the law in their hands. Talk about Law, if there's any anyway. The powerful gets away with everything. More imporatantly, made president. Or if you bury your women and say it's our culture, you will end of being a cabinet minister. Or if you try to raise your voice, you disappear and never to be found again.

Denial is not a river in Pakistan Agnostic. It is destroying us for our petty allegiances to certain entities.

I don't buy the argument that the media was controlled - we all saw what happened when the GoP shut down GEO for refusing to follow its instruction on content.

Follow instructions? what instructions? that don't show our crimes to the masses so we can get away with all kinds of criminal activities?

This may have already been answered, but this article posted by you (highlighted section) confirms the death count issued by the GoP.

That was to point out the 600 people coming to claim the 80 dead bodies... rather limbs and remains. Do you follow me? I don't think GoP (that committed that crime) would actually give you the number. There had been several investigative reports, that analyzed the GoP secretly took the bodies/remains for burial and only give a handful to the people.

Or else what happened to everybody there? where did they go? Read this article - it clearly points out some major facts about Lal Masjid - Lal Masjid Massacre | What really happened? | Abid Ullah Jan | Haqeeqat.Org

And this one asks where did the dead of Lal Masjid go - Lal Masjid Massacre | Where Did the Dead Go? | Haqeeqat.Org

Theer were 100s missing, whom relatives were shut out and sent in packing. - Lal Masjid Massacre | Hundreds Feared KILLED in Lal Masjid Massacre | Haqeeqat.Org

Moreover, request for 400 Coffins to be prepared for the dead by GoP from Edhi. Why? Why Edhi was threatened afterwards that he had to leave the country? Why all the cover ups and threats to media to publish reports?

You should also read this article - Lal Masjid Massacre | Hundreds Feared KILLED in Lal Masjid Massacre | Haqeeqat.Org

Here's another article confirming how GoP burried dead of Lal Masjid in the darkness of night - The Indonesian Embassy, Islamabad Pakistan - Dead of the Lal Masjid buried quietly

And then there were those who were given the bodies and then there are those who are still trying to find the "Missing" relatives that nobody knows where did they disappear.

I mean it's beyond my intellect that how one can blindly follow the GoP which was and is full of crocks. Which never gave the real information. Which always tried to hide the facts. And moreover, how come a thief will tell you he stole? I mean you gotta open up to other sources to find out the truth. If you don't want to, then thats a completely different story and we should not be arguing here.

The only thing in this report is some unknown eyewitnesses claiming 'hundreds of bodies strewn around'. Please, don't insult everyones intelligenc with garbage like this as validation of such a horrible claim.

Unknown? I guess you failed to watch the news when those 'unknown witnesses' were giving accounts. There were 100s of them, not one or two. The relief workers too spoke out on the T.V. Do you think Pakistan documents every witness name in that chaos?

Moreover, who wanted to disappear anyway? That's one of the fear Army got on the people, so nobody comes forward or question. And no it doesn't mean that I hate army. It means I am questioning the wrongdoings.

But I think you don't want to assess the catestrophy from neutral point of view. Hence your argument of "Official sources" all along. So no one can really help you here if you don't want to look up the other side of the picture.

As I said, denial is not a river in Pakistan. If we are to keep denying the wrongdoings of "anyone" in our country, sooner or later, we'd end up in refugees camps.

However, Thank you for your time to read my "biased" view.