Swat Operation II

[Xeric]

And about "terrorists" in Lal masjid. I don't think you can use such term "terrorist" for them. They did wrong, yes I agree. But they were bunch of pissed off people from our very own country, who did not like the prostituition in Islamabad. Pornography and other ills of the society that was going on in Islamabad (and still going on), for which that they repeatedly called on the government to stop and take action on the wrong things happening in the society destroying our beautiful culture and society, which never happened so they laid siege in protest.

Yes they were terrorists!
Not all but there were terrorists inside the mosque.
You boast quite alot about the things that you have JUST SEEN on the TV about the Lal operation but did you ever noticed the way those people were holding thier weapons (i am not talking about the veriaty of weapons) but what i am tryinh to make you understand is that there is a HELL lot of a diffrnece between the way a TRAINED man holds a weapon and the way people like you hold it. They way you place the finger off the trigger when you are not firing, they way you straigen you hand to get hold of the trigger group etc etc. These things are taught in the military, police or any other security agencies or these thibgs are told to terrorists who are trained properly by someone deliberately. These things are not taught in schools and mosques! So had you been playing with weapons and getting training on them you would never have noticed this fact(as you never did notice) but people who wear uniforms do understand such nitty gritties. Although this is not at all a fact that justify to strom a mosque but there are many which ofcourse i'll not tell you because of the obvious reasons.

Now as far as the prostitution and poronogarphy things is conceren, where those people "thaikedar" of everything!!
Who are they to tell someone not to do something!
Yes i know the menance of Red Light areas all over Pakistan but that doesnt qualify me to take charge in my own hands and start knocking over buildings and schools.
And this is what Islam says. You are not at all empowered to IMPOSE and ENFPOREC your will on other Muslims.
If i don't keep a beard (which is wrong)who the hell are you to tell me to keep one. Yes being a friend you have the right to tell me once or twice to keep a beard and that's it!!! You can't get hold of a 'danda' and beat me to keep a beard. On the other hand you should try to impress me with your deeds so that i might change due to your 'Akhlaq" Islam was never spread through SWORD!!! i am sure you must be knowing it.
You and i shoudl try to keep my house clean!! Thats it! You and i should ensure that my mother and sisters don't do anythinhg wrong. They should be told to do 'hijab' (if you and want to) but i shouldn't be telling a neighbor in the third street to tell her wife to wear a burkha, while my own ladies are roaming free!!!

We all should mend our ways, just our ways. and at the same time ADVICE others to do guud, not force them to follow you!!

Just imagine eveyone doing guud in the society and then what would be the results. A very decent society!!

You must be complaining about shortage of electricity in Pakistan but how many time have you ensured to shut all the lights of your house when you go out. How many times have you ensured to turn of the gas heater when you leave a room. Well this is a easy job. But how many times have you adviced your colleagues at work to turn off the computers during their break time!!???

How often you turn off the tap during shaving and brushing your teeth!!??

And then you complain that we are short of gas, electricity and water!!!

Mend your ownself first, rest would be RIGHT AUTOMATICALLY, there would be no need of imposing shariat and taking on arms!!!

 

[Pashtun]

Oh wow, how and when did this happen??
The media has never been so free. Dude they were just asked not to show anything 'live' so what they did was that they used to show EVERYTHING with a delay

of few minutes thereby fulfilling the requirement of the sanctions of a "not-live" TV.

Well comparatively it is free from the last 10 years but you cannot say it is not controlled. There are numerous examples where channels have been banned. TV stations vadanlised, anchors threatened, broadcasts cut off, etc. etc. You cannot just say its totally free. We all know its not. But comparatively from the past its much better no doubt.

And we are not contesting here whether the reports were with delay or not. The point of the matter is they were not allowed to show loads of stuff. So they had to resort to funerals and individual accounts to show the carnage. Moreover, my argument is not based on that. I live hardly 2 hours away from Islamabad, I got my friends there who witnessed that with their own eyes how bodies were littered, charred, burned, limbs everywhere, and no media was allowed. I take that as a cover up. You can take that as you want.

If you call repeat telecast as Multiple then yes there were multiple reports. Damn! you are right

Well you don't have to really challenge your intellect here now? It was a very simple english, multiple reports, not "repeat" broadcasts. I know you know the difference but I guess you had to twist it to build an argument. You didn't have to do that. You could just tell me you don't agree and that would be the end of it. Twisting the argument round and around is a waste of time.

Thats what i have been making you and the other dude understand that its not always the media that is to be believed. Media is a POWER and it has the capability to INFLUENCE, influence people like you and others, who blindly believes what ever is shown to them.
Media wants that it should be watched and read. And they will do anything to achieve this. May it be against the state policy and may it be harming the reputation of a prestiges institute.

Well true. But how do you know I can be influenced? just because someone is not agreeing with your parroting, it doesn't mean that he/she is a door knob. You have your sources and intellect to analyze situation and others have theirs. You can't tell others you are right and they are wrong. It's kind of supriority complex that probably have gotten into your head. But when you don't know others, you can't cliam that "they can be influenced", when you don't know what they know about the situation and from what sources.

And BTW not to mention are 'most watched media' has already proven at many occasions as regards to its anti-state propagandas and issues.

i can qoute an example here. Many people have been saying that why there was a need to strom the mosque. The govt and the Army should have just dicsonected the gas, water electricity and other supplies to the mosque and those people should have come out by themslves!
But what about the fact that people like Hamid Mir were recharging the cell phones of the Mullahs and spokesmen inside the mosque with easyload.
Just so that they can talk and in turn people will watch and the media will make MORE money. Dude!!!

Truly, they make money, thats why they are there. PTV did not show nothing on the other hand, as its a state run. PTV parrots what the masters say. So its a golden opportunity to provide masses with something they can't see on the Government TV. So if they can give people material to watch (the live or, well, with coupel of minutes delay) then why not?

And if supplies can be cut, how hard it is for the government to cut the cell phone connection? I mean that was very nonsense example. Govt. have every authority to cut a cell phone connection. If they wanted to starve the agitated people out of compound, there were multiple actions they could take. But as most of the people argue, Musharraf did not give them the chance. He refused the extension of the dialogue and stormed. And on a bigger picture, there's no doubt he was showing to the west that he is capable of killing his own people for them and they should trust him for everything. Thats how we see it, too bad if you don't like this, but you can't put a gun on our head to make us say "Yes Sir, we agree with YOU". Actually you can, if you are in power in Pak.

And you talk about the other stupid stuff.

Watching the show on a movie is easy!!!
And lastly, it was NOT Army's desicion to conduct the operation. The Army receive request ffom the govt and in turn the Army does what is better and feasible that too with the consent of the GOVERMENT, OKAY!!

Truly, if you haven't noticed, I did not blame the Army. Tho it's hard to say that it wasn't Army's govt., that would be shoving my ones head in the sand, if one is to beleive it wasn't army's govt. Besdies we all know who runs the country, so it would be very naive to say, Army takes the orders from Civilian diaspora.

But in anywhichway, I am blaming the officials not the soldiers. The officials screwed up, for not stopping Musharraf from his unilateral decisions. A lot of precious lives could have been saved. Negociations do miracles. Sooner you'll watch Army negotiating with Swat Militants as well. (Mark my wods).

It's not a jungle that any tom, dick and harry can get up and do what ever they want to and jump inside the mosque and kill "300 young girls"

Militants didn't kill three hundred girls, if you don't already know that. If you do, then you don't have to fabricate a story to prove your point. Tho I agree not every Tom, Dick or Harry can get up and challenge the writ of the government. That's why if you haven't noticed, I said in the begining, they (the agitated concerned citizens) were not right to opt that way to protest their anger. Their demands from govt. were correct (take actions against brothels, pornography etc.) but their process of demand was wrong.

The Army follow instructions, and thats what is happening in Swat and Wana. You people ask the Army to do something nad when your own *** is kicked then you shout and come up with lame excuse that my house was screwed and my crops were burnt!!!

If you keep on forgetting what I have said earlier, it would be very hard to keep up with a healthy discussion. Perhaps its not a shouting match, unless you want to prove your point with shouting, than just say so, and we'll agree to disagree.

So as I said earlier, Army is very disciplined instituition. They take the orders and they execute them. However, the elite of the military is what need to be fixed for giving orders (for whatever reasons). They can't stop drone attacks while other countries are slapping us left n right and spitting on our name, no order is coming from that end to stop attacks on the country, but orders are coming to constantly conquer ones own country? I think there's something wrong, something seriously wrong in this picture. The military elite is getting away with precious lives of the civilians and soldiers who are dying because of excuting of those orders they got from elite.

And just to inform you. NOBODY, asked for an operation in Wazrisitan. If you can, get yourself a copy of FATA agreement with Quied, and see what it says about Army's presence in FATA. The agreement was clear cut that Army will never be sent to FATA (except when there's an external threat). The borders will be protected by the Tribes, which they did for 60 years, with their lives to stop Soviets. Yet, Military invaded alost entire FATA on the name of War on Terror because we became allies of the west who is up to finising the name of Islam and in future, Pakistan, from the earth. They give us carrots (millions of dollars as payments for these operations for WoT) and our elite is sacrificing precious lives of soldiers and creating a civil war situation in the west.

So don't tell me that we asked for the operations. Nobody wants to get his house bombed. The most people asked was for a ground surgical operation, so militants that are spread all over, can be contained, not aerial bombardments and tanks shelling.

Why dont you join the Army and see, if it is easy to raze a house to ground. Or for that matter when you are in active operation you'll do what ever is

Well you are not getting a point here. Why create the situation, when you have no option but to do whatever you you have to? Thats why people blame the military elite for dancing on the tunes of America. Do you think people can't see how the better ISI chief was changed by United States with this new guy (even tho it was against Military routine) so the new guy can do what America wants? I mean don't you know how America try to control our elite? They are making some corrupt officials to lobby for creating such situation when there's inevitability to control the situation and then there's no choice left but a massive grade destruction. And that, America is doing to create a civil war in Pakistan.

And who is going to answer for the Army people who got killed in operation just to Avoid COLLATERAL DAMAGE!!!

The same corrupt Army officials who ordered the invasion of civilians. They are responsbile for the precious lives of our soldiers by creating such situation by working on someone else orders. But I guess its unheard of that any Army elite official will be held accountable for anything. Usually they die myesteriously, or in open brazen masked men attacks, and case is closed.

The problem of our country is not bottom up my friend, its top down.

 

[Xeric]

They should have been dealt with dialogue. But no room was left for the dialogue. I believe very less time was given for the dialogue before, without notice, the operation started and precious lives were lost because someone had to prove to the west that he is up to the task of dealing with militancy and the fake threat of terrorism.

Not every pissed off/concerned person against the wrong doings of the government and ills of society, is a terrorist, my friend.

You really need to understand the working of security forces!! especially the Anti-Terrorist Forces. For a kiddo like you i'll suggest to watch some Hollywood movies.
Dude if you say they were not given time for dialogue then what the hell was happening in those 8 dayz prior to the start of the operation???

Sir, anti-terrorist operations have to start immediately!
You don't give them time to consolidate and get themselves ready for a operation. They are not given respite!! As it was done in this operation!!
Now let me explain you, if i tell you as a policemen, dude you better come out of the room or you would be shot, do you think i would be kidding?? It is clear that i'll shoot you if you'll not come out! Now you are again told, this time giving a deadline but you still don't pay heed, as you think its some kind of a joke. Forgetting that just because of this idiotic act of yours you are placing your country's not only the mosque or the city's reputation at stake. You are telling the world that yes Pakistan is an outlawed country where people can kill at their will, they can burn and arson when they want and they don't respect freedom!!
Then you are again threatened that dude you better come out, this time i send you negotiators, people who are known to you, people who can explain you and the people whom you trust, but NO, you think the people outside are AHs and you are smarter!
It is just like as if you are holding a stone in your hand to hit me i am pointing a gun at you, and i am asking you to throw the stone away and leave, but as you don't have brains (just exemplifying) you again try to hit me with that stone!! Wow, now what do you expect me to do? come and HUG you, kiss you and pat you for doing such a wonderful job!! No sir i'll shoot your brians out!! (No offence and fear) Or now you can tell me what would you have done if you had been at my place holding the gun..??

BTW coming back to the Lal Mosque. After passage of 7 days you are again given another deadline but instead of using you head you start making your defences and tell the security forces that we are ready for a FIGHT! How lame! Catch me if you can!! Wow. And you start threatening that we have so many people who are ready for suicide attacks, boom! there you go, the entire world's eyes are on you now, suicide bombers!!! (who else they West call terrorists).
And in the last when their A** is busted they and others(who have been supporting them and motivating them to stay inside, fooling them for their own gains) start weeping and complain that daddy look, he is kicking me!! Thats not the way it works sir!!!

And one more things, being in the govt, or as a leader or a boss or for that matter CEO (anybody who is controlling many people) you have to make certain things clear to your people that this or that a particular thing would not be tolerated in this country, party, factory or mill. So what you do, you make an example out of that culprit. For instance someone in your shop steals where many other employees are also working.
A guud and intelligent owner of the shop will never let go of that thief because if he is spared others in the shop will also get the guts to steal as they know that what maximum will happen, except that he would fired from the job! So you will never let that culprit go, you make sure that he is properly penalized so that others are given very clear message that nobody dares to steal in my shop or he is going to meet the same fate.
And BTW this is what Islam also says, you give punishments like death and 'Sangsar" and chop of people's hands publicly just because that others must think not hundred but a Million times before doing something wrong!! Got it, my friend!

And i hope you understand why i have quoted the example of the shop and the shop keeper. Try to relate it with Lal Masjid

 

[Pashtun]

Here again you are wrong!
Ya the Army is very discipline but that doesn't mean that their seniors make them do 'wrong' things!
And yes in Army people do make their own decision!!
Thats how the Army works, military is all about "decision making"

No thats wrong. The soldiers don't make their own decisions. They do what they are told to do. Thats what discipline is. Thats why Army is organized, because there are no Ifs and Buts, its all "Yes Sir". And I am not contesting how army works, I am contesting why such decisions have been made on the instigations of the master in the west?

Would you like to define 'elite"
What do yiu mean by that!!!
do you think those 'elite' of yours are just elites because they were born with silver spoon in their mouth??
Dude they have earned it. And they not banks VPs and others who earn 6 figure salaries and spend a healthy wealthy life with their families for ever and enjoy their lives as if they are Kings.

I think you have some severe problems with comprehending english. The elite does not mean people born with silverspoon in their mouth. Check the meaning again of the elite. People who can be super poor, can get to elite positions and status. e.g. politicians, most of them became elite after super corruption.

Moreover I guess you haven't seen lives of retired/active Army elites have you that you are contesting they have no perks privileges etc.?

Many of the Army Officers ( to include Officers of other services) are "chosen". By this i mean they are selected through a very tough process. Had they been not in the Army i can assure you they would have been on other much better jobs as regards to pays and perks and privileges!!!

I also have many family and friends in Army, on very elite positions. I know how the selection is made. There's no tough process if you are get beyond colonel post (as much I have seen it), it's all politics. How good you are in politics and how excellently you can handle and execute orders and how many people you know. And talk about Perks and privileges, I guess you don't know how much privileges Army elite has? I guess you don't see all the latram patram provided to elite on duty and after retirement. (Tho I am not saying its not a good thing, I guess they deserve it, but you are posing them as they come out some sort of beggers from Army, which is incorrect).

But why would you care!! getting everything in your mouth, living and having a wonderful life, why would you think about that soldier who is sitting at 20000 Ms above the sea level and people like you are enjoying in Fortress Lahore, Jinnah Super in Islamabad or Tariq Road karachi!!,

You don't know me Enigma. I don't live in fortresses or Jinnah Super, or Islambad or Lahore or Karachi. I am from a small town, who had seen the worst from last 60 years. You should not be asserting things about others and make claims. Its irrational on your part.

or for that matter who thinks about soldier who is fighting in Wana and Swat and watching is comrades being killed on daily basis. He doesn't sleep well not because he is afraid but because he is awake so people like you can sleep!!

You didn't read my earlier comments I guess. Nobody is blaming the soldiers, but the people who are ordering them for such things. Why it is so hard for you to argue on intellectual bases than twisting and fabricating things on your own out of the context?

And dude there is NO elite in the Army. They all are f*** through out their youth and then reach the top brass just after being filtered, rubbed and polished through out their carrier.

Only if you knew what elite means. For you elite is someone who is born in a super rich family. I guess dictionary.com would do the trick to understand what Elite means and how does the word interpret in our official diaspora.

[/QUOTE]Oh wow!
i have now serious doubts that you are a Pakistani!
Please specify me some one who has been doing corruption! yes black sheep are always there, but it is 0ne in thousands![/QUOTE]

Oh now I am not even a Pakistani? very nice. Is that all you got to argue? shout and blame others by forcing your opinions? wow.

And wake up, the entire world knows how corruption works and how many corrupt officials we have in almost every institution. One in thousand... my foot. How old are you again?

And BTW, what kind of corruption can an Officer do..??

Depends on what the officer is doing. I guess you forgot military officers controlling public offices and budget in past 8 years? I guess you are telling me no corruption was done? If you arrogantly deny that, there's no contest. You win hands down if you think Pakistani officials are not corrupt.

Would he sell Artillery Shells to people like you who have not even seen an artillery gun, or would they sell DMS shoes which people like you usually make fun of, or would he sell Tank Ammo to people like you who dont even know their names, or would that officer sell the Ration of soldiers, which in total do not cost more than a few thousand rupees. Just tell me who idiot will do your so called corruption just for the sake of a few thousand bucks!!!???? and kick his 'rozi roti'.

No, not really that, you are just making no sense with this, maybe you don't know about our country and I doubt if you are a Pakistani or live in Pakistan?.

They make money off the civilian offices they control and the military budget along with weapons buying program, where they get huge kick backs. Again, I am not talking about soldiers, but the military elite, which controls the army.

And mind it i can name hundreds in the Army who are position holders in the pre-Army studies, had been doing jobs or had been studying in the elite colleges and universities of Pakistan. They just join the Army because of their motivation despite of the fact the Army has nothing to offer them execpt BLOOD, SWEAT and TOIL!!!

I love army, the powers drips from their every pour. No one in entire country can question what they are doing. They are beyond law. The uniform is so powerful, that makes one drool. I guess money is not everything at all, when rich people have that already. It's the power my friend, that makes the man head spin.

Wrong again!
BTW they will kick you if you will finger them!!!

Why would I finger them? why would I see them even? they belong to borders or barracks. Not in streets and government offices, where I had been seeing them for past 8 years alone, and making decisions for which they do not even qualify. Don't you know how coup de-etat works? Don't you know Army controlled every civilian office for past 8 years? Don't you know they made decisions for public that they were not qualified for? Thanks to General Kiyani, who made the perfect decision to take them out of civilians offices so civil society can grow again.

Well please it is a serious request can you recommedn me with a few option that the Army can do in order to prevent the drone attacks withoput putting the security of you people at stake. i'll be looking forward for your eply in this regards, and i'll pray that you raech the top brass of the govt to implement it.(please don't tell me stupid things which are NOT possible). Talking is easier than doing!!!

I am not a Military strategist. I know one thing, they are there to protect me, not destroy me or let others destroy me. I know I live ina country where people have honour, dignity and self respect, which had been ruined by these drone attacks, that the army is accompliced with. I know that the drone attacks on civilians are not for achieving terrorism shield, but to create civil war and creating gap between civilian society and Army, by stopping army from taking action, or they will stop the money on the army.

I know one thing, I don't live on my knees with my head in America's feet. I'd rather prefer dying on my feet. And I see that you don't support this notion, but I know large majority in Pakistan does. Hence our army must protect the dignity of the country.

America will come today or tomorrow with an open attack, mark my words. These attacks are preliminary actions. They already started hitting Bannu (a settled area for God's sake) and our army with all the foo faa, couldn't do anything. (I guess they have signed an agreement for letting americans kill their own citizens?)

And you have no idea how bad these attacks are. (not physical damage wise) but politically. It's very hard for us (pakistan lovers) to control the sentiments of the masses against these attacks. People are already questioning if Army can't protect them when drones are attacking, and when India threatened, the entire army was high alert on eastern border, then they think they are considered as second class getaway citizens, on which Army is making the money. People are already thinking that from west ameircans are hitting them and form east their own army.

Do you know what this can lead to? a civil war, which will give our enemies a chance to annex NWFP from Pakistan. In either cases, its a bad omen to not stop the drone attacks. If we can't militarily want to engage them, then we should stop supplies to them, call our ambassador (that 2# unelected guy) from america. We should lodge and international protest in the U.N. and then make a clear cut case to engage them militarily. Trust me, out military is capable of engaging America on the west.

We have loads of assets inside Afghanistan that will make their lives living hell. The entire western nation (our nation) will rise against them if Army decides to take on US, and then let us deal with them, we can deal with an emey better than anyone can think. Army will be free to engage on Eastern Border.

Did you forget, that when General Kiyani said, we will protect our soverignty at all costs, how did our tribes responded, they sworn to protect the border with their lives and chanted Pakistan Zindabad. The result - within hours another attack, by butchslapping out General's commitment to protect the soverighnty.

If we can't live with dignity, we don't deserve to live at all. Our reputation is at risk. People in entire world already calling us faggots. They are already saying Pak has no balls to protect its keep. You may be able to live with that, but I love my country and I can't see people passing such comments, when I know we have the capability to drill any intruder.

YES!! they will hit you from there where you would never expect, when you will ask for it!!!! Why were you mongering the other day that the Army is not doing 'much' to stop militancy!!
Idiot do you think the militancy will stop while initiating a request to the hardcore killers, who you are so afraid that you have ran away from your homes and sh** in your pants while sleeping when they chop off a head of someone!!! You really are lost!!!

So when you lose an argument, you start abusing others? I see what your family have taught you. I see the caliber already. I see why you are *****ing in your pants on drone attacks. That explains why you are so scared of other countries and want to live with your head on their feet.

NO! you don't pay them.
You pay taxes like every other citizen of any other country!!
BTW the ARMY Officers pay MORE taxes than YOU!!! i can bet on that !!!!!

The rule of tax is, you pay as much you earn. So if an Army officer is earning 10 times more than me, than of course he will have to pay more taxes, if he pays at all that is. We all know, its the poor citizens that gets to pay all the taxes, everyone else gets away with it by paying to the inspector. Hallelujah to the system we have.

 

[Xeric]

Well comparatively it is free from the last 10 years but you cannot say it is not controlled. There are numerous examples where channels have been banned. TV stations vadanlised, anchors threatened, broadcasts cut off, etc. etc. You cannot just say its totally free. We all know its not. But comparatively from the past its much better no doubt.

Take the newspapers from 1947 till 2001 and then take some newspapers from 2001 to date, read them with a clear head. You'll come to know when the media was free. How many time the govt and the leaders has been so openly criticized and had been bashed during both the tenures that i have mentioned above.

And we are not contesting here whether the reports were with delay or not. The point of the matter is they were not allowed to show loads of stuff. So they had to resort to funerals and individual accounts to show the carnage. Moreover, my argument is not based on that. I live hardly 2 hours away from Islamabad, I got my friends there who witnessed that with their own eyes how bodies were littered, charred, burned, limbs everywhere, and no media was allowed. I take that as a cover up. You can take that as you want.

Great! Media was not allowed but your friends (who actually panicked, pissed in their pants and had horror dreams there after for the rest of their lives when they saw the bodies(which i doubt) managed to get inside and see all the so called 'carnage'. i must they they must be influential. or i must say invisible. The sharp and ever awaked eye of media missed it but your honorable friends made it. Tell them to give an interview on capital talk!

Well you don't have to really challenge your intellect here now? It was a very simple english, multiple reports, not "repeat" broadcasts. I know you know the difference but I guess you had to twist it to build an argument. You didn't have to do that. You could just tell me you don't agree and that would be the end of it. Twisting the argument round and around is a waste of time.

i call this whining.

Well true. But how do you know I can be influenced? just because someone is not agreeing with your parroting, it doesn't mean that he/she is a door knob. You have your sources and intellect to analyze situation and others have theirs. You can't tell others you are right and they are wrong. It's kind of supriority complex that probably have gotten into your head. But when you don't know others, you can't cliam that "they can be influenced", when you don't know what they know about the situation and from what sources.

No need to mention.
Observers at this forum knows who is influenced and who not. Don't pay attention to that

Truly, they make money, thats why they are there. PTV did not show nothing on the other hand, as its a state run. PTV parrots what the masters say. So its a golden opportunity to provide masses with something they can't see on the Government TV. So if they can give people material to watch (the live or, well, with coupel of minutes delay) then why not?

You must have seen exactly the same thing that was shown on other private channels, provided your influenced mind made you switch channels with PTV!

Truly, if you haven't noticed, I did not blame the Army. Tho it's hard to say that it wasn't Army's govt., that would be shoving my ones head in the sand, if one is to beleive it wasn't army's govt. Besdies we all know who runs the country, so it would be very naive to say, Army takes the orders from Civilian diaspora.

Again influenced!
A President being from the Army doent mean the "Army" itself is running the country. Open your head, think clear and breath some fresh air and then blame Musharraf NOT the Army!!!

Sooner you'll watch Army negotiating with Swat Militants as well. (Mark my wods).

Dude every war, conflict and fight ends up in dialog. Make me mark your words on something that is new!

[/QUOTE]
And just to inform you. NOBODY, asked for an operation in Wazrisitan. If you can, get yourself a copy of FATA agreement with Quied, and see what it says about Army's presence in FATA. The agreement was clear cut that Army will never be sent to FATA (except when there's an external threat). The borders will be protected by the Tribes, which they did for 60 years, with their lives to stop Soviets. Yet, Military invaded alost entire FATA on the name of War on Terror because we became allies of the west who is up to finising the name of Islam and in future, Pakistan, from the earth. They give us carrots (millions of dollars as payments for these operations for WoT) and our elite is sacrificing precious lives of soldiers and creating a civil war situation in the west.[/QUOTE]
Oh my my!
i forgot that it was a Martial Law, and the Army was sent in at its own. Thanx for the information!!!

 

[Patriot]

And just to inform you. NOBODY, asked for an operation in Wazrisitan. If you can, get yourself a copy of FATA agreement with Quied, and see what it says about Army's presence in FATA. The agreement was clear cut that Army will never be sent to FATA (except when there's an external threat). The borders will be protected by the Tribes, which they did for 60 years, with their lives to stop Soviets. Yet, Military invaded alost entire FATA on the name of War on Terror because we became allies of the west who is up to finising the name of Islam and in future, Pakistan, from the earth. They give us carrots (millions of dollars as payments for these operations for WoT) and our elite is sacrificing precious lives of soldiers and creating a civil war situation in the west.

This is lame excuse.When you start harboring International terrorist who are threat to other countries then obviously someone will have to step in.You should be lucky that Pakistan joined war on terror and it is in PA that is in West side.Otherwise United States Army would be stationed in FATA and other parts of Pakistan..

 

[Xeric]

This discussion is heading no where. i dont want to run around something that is a produce of influenced thoughts.
So no more replies from my side, atleast to my friend, Mr Pushtun!

 

[Pashtun]

You really need to understand the working of security forces!! especially the Anti-Terrorist Forces. For kiddo like you i'll suggest to watch some Hollywood movies.

So it's the hollywood movies source for your genius information. I see. Thanks but no thanks, I can learn from the security people myself how they work, you can learn from hollywood movies.

Dude if you say they were not given time for dialogue then what the hell was happening in those 8 dayz prior to the start of the operation???

Do you think 8 days are enough when your entire reputation is on stake in the world and in the country? The entire opposition, including many army officers were against the operation. Why the dialogue was cancelled abruptly and operation started?

Do you know Lal Masjid was the turning point for our contry's current state? You are blindly supporting everything Army is doing, but you are forgetting the consequences of such steps, that have litterally destroyed our country. Even the civilian government didn't know about the operation that Musharraf ordered. No other politician supported it. This was such a huge operation, that one cannot unilaterly order to excute, which Musharraf did, without conscenting with other parties.

That operation destroyed out country. Thats what the fact is.

Sir, anti-terrorist operations have to start immediately!
You don't give them time to consolidate and get themselves ready for a operation.

There were no terrorists in the masjid for God's sake. They were our own citizens, who were protesting against the brothels, prostitutes, pornography, sharab khanay and other wrong things in islamabad. They could have been eaisly controleld by telling them yes we agree with "closing down brothels/sharab khanay/pornography in Islamabad", and that would be the end of it. Instead the general decided to show off to the world that he is capable of killing his own people as long they support him for his presidency.

They are not given respite!! As it was done in this operation!!
Now let me explain you, if i tell you as a policemen, dude you better come out of the room or you would be shot, do you think i would be kidding?? It is clear that i'll shot you if you'll come out! Now you are again told, this time given a deadline but you still don't pay heed, as you think its some kind of a joke.

Why would you shoot me if I am protesting? but I guess our country have a history of shooting protestors against the wrong doings. So I guess you and me cannot agree on that.

Forgetting that just because of this idiotic act you placing your country's not only the mosque or the city's reputation at stake. You are telling the world that yes Pakistan is an outlawed country where people can kill at their will, they can burn and arson when they want and they don't respect freedom!!

And do you think Operation made our reputation better? People now say, every country has an Army, Pakistan Army has a country. Do you remember the slogan "Apnay mulk ko fatah karna band karo"? Do you know what does that mean?

Then you are again threatened that dude you better come out, this time you send negotiators, people who are known to you, people who can explain you and the people whom you trust, but NO, you think the people outside are AHs and you are smarter!

Yes and you say we are thinking, and before you could answer to the negociation, the operation starts. That was the problem. The negotiaters were not given enough time. The operation was ordered by abruptly stopping the negociations. Why?

I

t is just like as if you are holding a stone in your hand to hit me i am pointing a gun at you, and i am asling you to throw the stone away and leave, but as you don't have brains (just examplifying) you again trying to hit me with that stone!! Wow, now what do you expect me to do? come and HUG you, kiss you and pat you for doing such a wonderful job!! No sir i'll shot your brians out!! (No offence and fear) Or you can tell me what whould you have done if you had been at my place holding the gun..??

That's where we differ. When you are in power to do something, you have more responsibilities to show huge restraint, patience, and wisdom. Even if I am throwing stones at you, you cannot shoot my brains out for throwing a stone at you, because I am protesting that you are letting prostitutes to run brothels in Islamic Republic of Pakistan and letting Alcahol houses to run. You cannot shoot at your own citizens if they are protesting. You listen to them you work out a solution by give n take bases.

BTW coming back to the Lal Mosque. After passage of 7 days you are again given another deadline but instead of using you head you start making your defences and tell the security forces that we are ready for a FIGHT! How lame! Catch me if you can!! Wow.

Yes because you are not negotiating with them. You are telling them we will shoot you. So you better expect such 'lame' responses that they are ready to fight if you are picking a fight. If you are negotiating, they will negotiate, if you don't they will not. And responsiblity is on your shoulders, because you are the government, you are the man in power and you are the one to make such decisions and you alone made the decision without contacting and listening to 99% other people havin ghte stake in the matter.

That operation, have created a huge gap among people and army. Thats why the army's reputation is down the drain, because of such actions. You cannot expect people to love you every time you slap them. You know!

And one more things, being in the govt, or as a leader or a boss or for that matter CEO (anybody who is controlling many people) you have to make certain things clear to your people that this or that particular thing would not be tolerated in this country, party, factory or mill. So what you do, you make an example out of that culprit.

Culprit? you killed almost all of them, the ones that had nothing to do with it, and were not even hostages, as the government later confiremd that there were no hostages.

Yes you are suppose to make it clear to them and if they don't listen, you work out a deal and fire them. You do not blow entire office along with everyone if one person is not listening damn it. Where is your intellect have gone? grass grazing?

For instance someone in your shop steals where many other employees are also working.
A guud and intelligent owner of the shop will never let go of that thief because if he is spared others in the shop will also get the guts to steal as they know that what maximum will happen, except that he would fired from the job! So you will never let that culprit go, you make sure that he is properly penalized so that others are given very clear message that nobody dares to steal in my shop or he is going to meet the same fate.

Properly Sir, properly. What was proper in Lal Masjid? You bombed the entire shop, along with other employees, because one of the employee stole something. Damn it.

And BTW this is what Islam also says, you give punishments like death and 'Sangsar" and chop of people's hands publicly just because other must think not hundred but Million times before doing something wrong!! Got it, my friend!

Wtf? The death punishment is for those who have killed anyone. The sangsar punishment is for those who are married and commit adultary. The hand chopping is for those who have stolen something. And moreover, the punishment is only for the person who have done it.

NOT FOR EVERYONE. YOu bombed every single person in the compound. You hit the Eley with Surface to Air Missile, damn it. That's the problem.

And how come you are bringing Islam in it when they were asking the govt to do something islamic? Why didn't govt. banned the brothels and other houses? Isn't not unislamic? or Islam only kicks in when you kill someone out of sheer stupidity and you have to justify it?

And i hope you understand why i have quoted the example of the shop and the shop keeper. Try to relate it with Lal Masjid

I don't understand that. Because your example was flawed and extremely dispropotionate to what happened in Lal Masjid, Sir.

Your analogies are flawed. You are only defending the wrong doings of the people by telling everyone they are beyond criticism. No, Sir, they are not. We have every right to criticise every wrong doing of every single person in our country, specially those who have the power to do things and can get away with it.

Our country is in shambles because we have let every official do whatever they want to do and never questioned their legitimacy. Our country is destroyed because we have elected thiefs as our presidents and the worlds most corrupt people as our ministers, while they allow burying women alive and support that and we elect them as our cabinet ministers.

Shame on all of us for supporting such corruption and criminal acts of others for our petty allegiances.

 

[Pashtun]

This is lame excuse.When you start harboring International terrorist who are threat to other countries then obviously someone will have to step in.You should be lucky that Pakistan joined war on terror and it is in PA that is in West side.Otherwise United States Army would be stationed in FATA and other parts of Pakistan..

this is an uncalled for response. Who have harboured international terrorists there? Can you give me one name? Haqqani? he is a Pakistan's man. Hekmtyar? he is a Pakistan's man. Mullah Omar? he is a Pakistan's man. Yet they are all in Afghanistan as PA and ISI time and over confirmed and reiterated that. So which international terrorists are you talking about?

And if you haven't noticed, Ramzi, Kasi, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, and many more, all international terrorists were harboured in Punjab and Sindh and were cought from there. So who is harbouring the terrorists?

Howcome those places were not bombed for harbouring these terrorists?

No, sir, your comments were disporpotionate and out of factual tirade. If you are to just defend the wrongdoings of our officials, we agree to disagree that I cannot support you in that. Thank you.

 

[Pashtun]

Take the newspapers from 1947 till 2001 and then take some newspapers from 2001 to date, read them with a clear head. You'll come to know when the media was free. How many time the govt and the leaders has been so openly criticized and had been bashed during both the tenures that i have mentioned above.

As I said, it is relatively free from past 10 years or so. It'll be very hard to keep up with conversation if you can't comprehend simple english or remember what other have said in the context of our discussion. And if you haven't noticed the free media that criticised the govt. or establishment had been banned as well as offices destroyed and their journalists threatened. I guess 'relatively free' sits well in this situation.

Great! Media was not allowed but your friends (who actually panicked, pissed in their pants and had horror dreams there after for the rest of their lives when they saw the bodies(which i doubt) managed to get inside and see all the so called 'carnage'. i must they they must be influential. or i must say invisible. The sharp and ever awaked eye of media missed it but your honorable friends made it. Tell them to give an interview on capital talk!

Believe it or not they have gien interviews to many channels. Not just them, there were dozens other as well who saw the carnage with their own eyes. The eye witnesses accounts can easily be found in many articles and reports (even online). Only cameras were not allowed (even the journalists were there but acting as civilians as per different TV channels). And the camers were brougth afterwards in the time of funerals so people can see the burned and charred bodies of women children and other human beings with severed limbs.

No need to mention.
Observers at this forum knows who is influenced and who not. Don't pay attention to that

That's good, I hope they are reading this.

You must have seen exactly the same thing that was shown on other private channels, provided your influenced mind made you switch channels with PTV!

Well unlike you, I tend to beleive in checking all ends of the story. You have allegiances with certain enetities, I have allegiance with my country and my people. That's the difference I guess I have to live here with, while discussing things with you.

Again influenced!
A President being from the Army doent mean the "Army" itself is running the country. Open your head, think clear and breath some fresh air and then blame Musharraf NOT the Army!!!

Half of 60 years were directly under the Army rule. The rest were directed by the army. E.g. Civilian Govt. making decisions and Army making them taking it back. I don't think anybody would agree with you that Army doesn't run the country. It's a fact. If you don't agree with it, its your take on it.

Oh my my!
i forgot that it was a Martial Law, and the Army was sent in at its own. Thanx for the information!!!

You are very welcome.

 

[Pashtun]

You should be lucky that Pakistan joined war on terror and it is in PA that is in West side.Otherwise United States Army would be stationed in FATA and other parts of Pakistan..

Don't worry, they are coming for Pakistan. Just wait and watch, how they will delcare the state as a failed state (by creating this anarchy and bloodshed through PA) and then create a case for Nukes to be in "dangerous" hands, and then they will come after you.

BTW if you don't know there's already a huge American base in Tarbela. And they are working on signing some sort of agreement to include FATA into American WoT so America can occupy FATA under that pretext.

If we failed to stop that... consider NWFP gone from your hands.

 

[Patriot]

this is an uncalled for response. Who have harboured international terrorists there? Can you give me one name? Haqqani? he is a Pakistan's man. Hekmtyar? he is a Pakistan's man. Mullah Omar? he is a Pakistan's man. Yet they are all in Afghanistan as PA and ISI time and over confirmed and reiterated that. So which international terrorists are you talking about?

And if you haven't noticed, Ramzi, Kasi, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, and many more, all international terrorists were harboured in Punjab and Sindh and were cought from there. So who is harbouring the terrorists?

Howcome those places were not bombed for harbouring these terrorists?

No, sir, your comments were disporpotionate and out of factual tirade. If you are to just defend the wrongdoings of our officials, we agree to disagree that I cannot support you in that. Thank you.

I agree that PAKArmy and ISI Should have made sure in 2001 that no Talibans enter FATA when America invaded Afghanistan.We all knew they would run into FATA.Well it's obvious when Americans start killing them in Afghanistan they will enter FATA.Punjab/Sindh is far away from Pakistan/Afghan border.While i do blame Military to some extent.They should have taken some serious action in 2001 but i disagree with you that no one should ever enter FATA and the whole army is not corrupt for god sake..Obviously some generals do earn money from cutbacks in Defense Deals but its not just limited to Pakistan Army and lastly please don't blame all Generals.These Generals have earned their ranks.
OTOH, When Military starts doing something then the whole country people are like these are our brothers don't kill them (Aftermath of Lal Masjid Fiasco)

 

[Anwar2]

AgNoStIc MuSliM: “”It is nothing but a resort to cheap propaganda and sensationalism by deliberately utilizing the symbolism of 'young girl students'””.

TruthSeeker: “”The number of students killed was far less than one-hundred. While the jihadi partisans of Lal Masjid claimed over 300 students were killed, this was never verified by anyone.””

Kasrkin: “”I have nothing against you voicing a 'contrarian view', but I do take exception to your continuing to spout baseless terrorist propaganda such as this.””
“”This is on record, but no one, not the PML-N or the JI or the JUI-F could come up with 1 name, just 1 name to back this claim up.””

“Terrorist Propaganda” is easiest way out of a bind, and when you run out of ideas.

According to our dear friends the human toll of Lal Masjid is nothing to write home about. Those 300 odd girl students actually did not exist. Such insensitivity and callousness does not bode well for the nation.

Only the Pak Army, Intelligence agencies and select officials had access to the destroyed Lal Masjid after the operation. I am sure they made video recordings of all the proceedings, prior to being demolished into an open clearing. The only visible evidence was the 74 coffins full of mutilated burnt human remains that were ready for handover to an estimated 500 claimants!

The Army is in the best position to release the recordings to the nations and illustrate with the analysis of the remains that hundreds of girl students did not die in the carnage. That would also help Musharraf sahib to clear his name.

The fact remains that Lal Masjid tragedy was a turning point for the people of Swat, Bajaur and select districts in NWFP. It is deep wounds that can nether be forgiven nor forgotten.

 

[Anwar2]

Dear saadahmed : “”Obviously some generals do earn money from cutbacks in Defense Deals but its not just limited to Pakistan Army and lastly please don't blame all Generals. These Generals have earned their ranks””.

Generals earned their ranks? None of them has an actual combat record, except butchering Pakistanis on Pakistani soil.

 

[Pashtun]

I agree that PAKArmy and ISI Should have made sure in 2001 that no Talibans enter FATA when America invaded Afghanistan.We all knew they would run into FATA.Well it's obvious when Americans start killing them in Afghanistan they will enter FATA.Punjab/Sindh is far away from Pakistan/Afghan border.While i do blame Military to some extent.They should have taken some serious action in 2001 but i disagree with you that no one should ever enter FATA and the whole army is not corrupt for god sake.

How would they have made sure when they were supporting Talibans? Boy you are way off the realities. Pakistan was the 1st of three countries that legitimised Talebans government and supported it with every possible means. How come you can even say that PA/ISI should have made sure they don't cross the border, when they supported them in the first place and provided all the santuaries? Haqqani to Hekmatyar, they are still Pakistan's assets.

And no I have never mentioned the entire army is corrupt, have I? I am only targetting those that are and made the decisions to join the so called WoT for their petty interests (money or power or whatever perks they got), that is causing us all our country. If you haven't noticed, we are paid heavily for the contribution. We just got 100 odd million dollars the other day as a payment for our services to kill our own citizens. Moreover, we got many military hardware as well. For me, its not a good deal to kill our own citizens to get some aid from the people who will eventually attack our country one day becaue they can't see a Muslim country having nukes.

Obviously some generals do earn money from cutbacks in Defense Deals but its not just limited to Pakistan Army and lastly please don't blame all Generals.These Generals have earned their ranks.

I didn't blame all generals either besides which general have a track record of earning the General post anyway? It's all politics. Musharraf was made a general when there were other two inline before him. Zia wa made a general when there were half a dozen before him in line for that post. And the game is still on. Selected people are made generals so the control is within those people's hands that run the drama.

But I am only talking about the elite that is corrupt and actually making the decisions for earning mney, or power, or whatever their interests are. E.g. Musharraf had to kill his own citizens to show it to the world that he is the only one that can control the country and militancy.

Jamshed Kiyani along with many other generals was strongly against in joining the WoT, but some others overran them and made the decision. Now we are paying for it and so is rest of our army, who can't even wear uniform in the public anymore. Do you think the decision was right to join WoT to kill our own people and destroy the repuation of the army? I don't think it was. I think someone sold his soul to devil and destroy our country because he had power to make decisions.

OTOH, When Military starts doing something then the whole country people are like these are our brothers don't kill them (Aftermath of Lal Masjid Fiasco)

Lal Masjid was the worst of the worst decisions our army have ever made. It was the turning point of the things now happening in our country. People from as far as Southern Punjab came and blew Mariott, and are fighting alongside some militants against our Army in Swat. Why? because of the aftermath of the lal masjid. That incident have destroyed our country, believe it or not.