Swat Operation II

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Before I comment on your, rather strange, post, I would like to make one thing clear, so you don't jump off the gun, that I am not a Mullah sympathizer, so it shouldn't be misinterpreted.

The turn out in Swat, as I read it the day reports emerged on TV about official calculations, was 18%.

Taking that in account, so basically what you are saying is, 18% voters are all what counts to decide what "Swatayan" wants? (BTW It's not Swatis, its Swatayan).

Moreover, most of the people failed to notice one thing that "MMA" did not run for this election. They boycotted it. So no JUI/JI was in the picture, which has a firm control in the region, hence no massive turnout (votes polled) in the region, and JUI-F, getting away with a seat or two for the reasons because no one else can win from there anyway.

provided the next elections are goign to be held sooner or later, expect a landslide for Qazi's bogey and expect PPP and ANP's grave dug deep in the mountains.

Indeed - low turnout becasue of the violence wreaked by Mullah FM and his terrorist posse, all courtesy of the MMA and its terrorist appeasing policies.

I imagine it would have been an even bigger landslide in favor of the secularists had they not been kept back by the violence inflicted upon the population of Swat under the watch of the MMA - only a fool would vote for the party that allowed the chaos we saw in Swat.

So do not mistake low turnout as a sign the MMA had any chance of winning that election, whether they participated or not.

Of course the ANP-PPP have to get things under control by the time the next elections come around, or they too will suffer.

 

[Pashtun]

Indeed - low turnout becasue of the violence wreaked by Mullah FM and his terrorist posse, all courtesy of the MMA and its terrorist appeasing policies.

I imagine it would have been an even bigger landslide in favor of the secularists had they not been kept back by the violence inflicted upon the population of Swat under the watch of the MMA - only a fool would vote for the party that allowed the chaos we saw in Swat.

So do not mistake low turnout as a sign the MMA had any chance of winning that election, whether they participated or not.

Of course the ANP-PPP have to get things under control by the time the next elections come around, or they too will suffer.

Actually ANP is blamed to stop all women voters to vote in Swat. A day before elections, they told the people not to bring the women for voting, citing security challenges. Similarly, a lot of people did not vote, because there was no MMA (you must know that in Pakistan people have allegiances to parties, doesn't matter how corrupt and incompetent they are, as we saw PPP coming to power, just because ppl liked Benazir, doesn't matter how corrupt she was).

Now the situation on ground is, nobody is going to vote for PPP or ANP (ANP never had any support anyway). They just won this time because there was no one else. No Tehreek-e-Insaaf. No PKMAP. No JI. And PML-N didn't even fought from all seats.

If you remember the 2002 election, ANP didn't get even a single seat in NWFP. Like not even a single seat. But if you calculate all their votes, you will find out they got same 10/12% that they got this time from NWFP. They only won because no one else was there and and the turnout was horrendous.

It's a vicious cycle if you ask me. You will see MMA back in the picture again, as there as quiet a calm in those 5 years, right before emergency, when the things went wrong. So I guess its one or the another party, theyjust change turns, from past 20 years I had been seeing that in Pakistan. The major players, PML-N or PPP, the provincial, all provinces have their own set parties taking turns. Same faces, comes and goes.

Hope for the best tho. We need some new and fresh blood.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

EDITORIAL:Army chief’s ‘signalling’ in Swat​

The chief of army staff (COAS), General Ashfaq Kayani, visited the troops in Swat yesterday and told them that the “Pakistan Army has the will and the resolve to defeat terrorists, restore peace and establish the writ of the state in violence-hit areas”. He was putting the stamp of his authority on the third phase of Operation Rah-e-Haq against the Taliban led by warlord Fazlullah. The message to the troops was no doubt also intended for the rest of the country and for the world community that has become less and less sure about Pakistan’s “will and resolve” after the first two phases of the Swat operation were seen as failures.

The visit came in the wake of a statement made by the interior adviser, Mr Rehman Malik, promising the ouster of the terrorists from Swat “in fifteen days”. The statement ran the risk of being treated as a meaningless hyperbole since he had earlier promised a similar “solution” to the sectarian mayhem of Parachinar “in fifteen days” and not delivered. But General Kayani’s appearance in Swat is a substantial gesture of “signalling” in all kinds of directions. Of them, the most important is the one aimed at the people of Swat and the people of Pakistan who are despairing of the state’s capacity to face up to brutal terrorism. His meeting with the ANP holdout against the Taliban, Afzal Lala, is also a significant demonstration of the intent to fight back.

The ANP government in the NWFP has been complaining bitterly over the quality of defence offered to it against terrorists within its own jurisdiction in Swat and in the federally administered neighbouring agency of Khyber. The MNAs and MPAs who have been forced to flee Swat have been speaking with great acerbity about how the people of Swat have been delivered on a platter to Fazlullah’s men. The TV channels, at first soft on the Taliban, have finally come around to seeing the terror in Swat for what it is. Swatis themselves have been intimidated into keeping silent about Fazlullah and criticising only the army and its “collateral damage”. But the channels can no longer conceal the fact that the Swatis are now praying for America’s drone attacks in their valley as the last resort.

The day the army chief was reported as visiting Swat, two observations appeared on the editorial page of a national daily: The first was: “People now have their reservations about the operation. They ask pertinent questions about it. They see a lack of willingness on the part of the state to curb the militancy. This perception is now held by the intelligentsia, particularly the Pakhtun intelligentsia. They contend that if the state’s military can stand up to a military as strong and large as India’s, how can it not handle an internal insurgency carried out by a few thousand armed men?” (Five thousand terrorists are fighting twenty thousand troops.) The second serious observation was: “However, even some of the more historically accurate narratives which acknowledge the deep consensual relationship between the religious right and the military establishment do not consider how this relationship has evolved and why the religious right is able to make inroads into society (regardless of whether it is supported by the establishment or not)”.

But one can understand the situation in the light of the media-supported mass sympathy for the terrorists of Lal Masjid in 2007, which redounded to the advantage of the Swat Taliban. Why should the army oppose something that the channels-led people find acceptable? But after more than a year, and despite these channels, public opinion has changed and it is time to grasp the nettle of terrorism-supported parallel government in Swat. *
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

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The highlighted portions may or may not mean much, but the military leadership has been consistent in stating that everythign in Swat was going according to a plan ....

Many of us have often argued that Pakistanis will not understand the threat they are facing until it hits home. After years of blood shed, and two of the bloodiest years in Pakistan's history, I finally sense a shift in the tone of the coverage.

Brazen criticism of the military for 'killing Muslims' and 'not giving peace a chance' has finally been replaced with criticism of the military for being 'in cahoots with the militants' and 'not doing enough'!

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

The ANP government in the NWFP has been complaining bitterly over the quality of defence offered to it against terrorists within its own jurisdiction in Swat and in the federally administered neighbouring agency of Khyber. The MNAs and MPAs who have been forced to flee Swat have been speaking with great acerbity about how the people of Swat have been delivered on a platter to Fazlullah’s men.

that's funny, the same fatheads were talking about "embracing" militants with dialogue and ushering a new era of piece! now that their homes are being blown up, they scream at the army for not fighting to save their behinds stuffed with food and money from the govt.

 

[Pashtun]

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_-------------------------------------------

The highlighted portions may or may not mean much, but the military leadership has been consistent in stating that everythign in Swat was going according to a plan ....

Many of us have often argued that Pakistanis will not understand the threat they are facing until it hits home. After years of blood shed, and two of the bloodiest years in Pakistan's history, I finally sense a shift in the tone of the coverage.

Brazen criticism of the military for 'killing Muslims' and 'not giving peace a chance' has finally been replaced with criticism of the military for being 'in cahoots with the militants' and 'not doing enough'!​

Well it has always been on the table that the operation didn't do well. It didn't get results out. I mean of course there are people who would still argue about success, but the fact of the matter is, the operation had been a failure, even tho there had been no low handedness in dealing with militants.

One being the key here, Army asked almost 700,000 people to leave towns and villages, so it can deal with the militants. People left, leaving their villages etc. empty for the fight. Army flattened them in pursue of militants, still no out come.

Samething happened in Swat. The ground fact is, as I mentioned earlier, we gave almost 100 acres of croppable land to Army (the land is on a very strategic point, on one end there are two mountains and the other end is a valley), they burnd all our crops, cut down the trees, we said thats fine, since they need to get a good sight. But now, right across them, talibans are camped. Litterally right across them, and Army is not doing anything. We even asked Corps Commander about it, and no answer.

Similarly in many locations, when people tell them the movement of militants, no action is taken. Not just that, my aunt died a few months ago, and we informed every single offiicer in charge in the area about the funeral, we got written approval from Peshwar HQ, and we were given assurances from all over that the funeral can be held during this n that time.

Guess what, the sooner funeral came out in the street, the army started shooting at it. 7 Dead, with my aunt having 3 bullets rigged in her body, that we had to clean it up again to bury. Tho Army appologised for the incident, but thats beside the point.

Moreover, during the curfews, nobody is suppose to leave the house, but the Militants were able to blow the power grid right in the middle of the city, which is controlled from all sides by Military. So people protested at that as how did this happened, result, 15 protestors shot dead.

Moreover, back in 2008, per eyewitnesses, Fazullulah was captured by this army unit outside of Kabal, and the next day we heard, he has been realeased. Similarly, the militants are openly doing things and nobody is stopping them. After almost a year, the Militants closed all Schools in Swat, right under the nose of Army. If that's not a failure, than what it is?

So really thats why there's a feeling that Militants and Army are one. Thats a ground fact. Thats what people on the ground now think that army and militants are one and there's some sort of bigger game is being played. That's why people protested a few months ago to Army in thousands, that leave us to militants (why would people do that?).

And just a day ago, Afzal Khan Lala, a renouned politician and leader of the area, met with General Kiyani, and told him, Army must do something to change the feeling of the people that Army and Militants are one - BBCUrdu.com | ??????? | ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ???????

So I don't know what is the new strategy of Army now that a claim had been made that it will be clean within weeks? kill everyone? or negotiate with militants? of it's a controlled chaos, that will be settled when the objective is completed?​

 

[Xeric]

Well thinking too high of your brain aren't you? you little naughty monster. :p I guess we all watched the interview and your explanation does not fit well with Jamshed saab's (RIP) revelation. You just did some poor defence of the usage of lethal weapons (doesn't matter CW or WP, its still lethal and massive source to use against ones own civilians).

I guess you do need to refresh your memory about General's saab's interview (who happen to pass mysteriously in young age, with a heart attack). It's availabe on Google videos. Watch it again and see what did he say about those bombs, and how much did he explain, which you think he wasn't able to explain his point and was snubbed.

Maybe the other viewers (who have no resources) do buy into a lot of crap Shahid Masood plays around, but atleast give me a break man. The world is all open to do research on what is what, and trust me, I can do research on. I am just in for facts and figures with better logic. And what I hear and saw about Lal Masjid, through the Lt. General's words and the media's cameras, doesn't need a Plato to understand what went there.

And just being neutral on the issues and scruitnizing army actions or government (which is every citizens born right, unless you think they are beyond criticism), doesn't make someone an idiot or unpatriotic.

You sure did get ypur nick/user name right!
BTW we were talking of CWs and burning of bones and killing of more than a 100 young kids! Aren't we??
So better stay on the topic and keep the fluctuation to the minimum!
And don't advice me to see what again and what not. With people like you on the planet who needs a dolt! And i am sure people like Dr Shahid will keep on making ALOTS of money with people similar to you, taking him as a godfather.

 

[Pashtun]

You sure did get ypur nick/user name right!
BTW we were talking of CWs and burning of bones and killing of more than a 100 young kids! Aren't we??
So better stay on the topic and keep the fluctuation to the minimum!
And don't advice me to see what again and what not. With people like you on the planet who needs a dolt! And i am sure people like Dr Shahid will keep on making ALOTS of money with people similar to you, taking him as a godfather.

Thanks for the insults and racism. I feel being an outsider already here.

 

[waraich66]

You don't seem to be an idiot but your post showed that you do believe in idiots!

Who ever commit any mistake either Government or Army is beyond of critisim,also Pakistan is small country very personal have links in Army and Government ,when ever he receive any news from these sources he must believe .

Please do me a favor, search the internet and find me something as 'lethal' that can burn bones! i have not done any sort of search on this but i know by the use of common sense that this is not possible with the use of white phosphorous!(WP)
WP is used to produce smoke! Smoke i said. It has an incendiary effect by default and it burns things that come in the way, but it cant burn a complete human to vapors!

No need to do any internet search we have seen this banned weapon used by israel in Gaza having similar after effects which we have seen in LAL mosque rooms and dead bodies conditions.

As far as Col Haroon (Shaheed) is concerned i'll not say anything in his 'safai' and whether he was wearing a bullet proof jacket or not. Not because it is confidential or something hidden but just because this discussion doesn't worth enough that a martyr be discussed within!

Agreed.We should not discuss causes of his death because it furthur increase public anger and hatred for our leaders and their instruments.

 

[Xeric]

And just being neutral on the issues and scruitnizing army actions or government (which is every citizens born right, unless you think they are beyond criticism), doesn't make someone an idiot or unpatriotic.

Scrutinizing the Army, what would you do that? What went wrong, expect that a few anti-state elements made the most out of the situation by maligning the Army and projecting themselves as saviors-that too just for money. And then people like you who believe all that without a single proof. Where are the families of those 300 young girls killed in Lal Masjid.
Lets do some math here:
300 girls=300 families

300 families (5 x individuals each-on average although people from that area do have larger families)=1500 people

1500 people and none expect the few who actually lost their loved ones in the operation were found by the media to shown on the tv.

 

[Xeric]

Who ever commit any mistake either Government or Army is beyond of critisim,also Pakistan is small country very personal have links in Army and Government ,when ever he receive any news from these sources he must believe .

Come again, please!??

No need to do any internet search we have seen this banned weapon used by israel in Gaza having similar after effects which we have seen in LAL mosque rooms and dead bodies conditions.

Lolz...well people usually quote things from history to prove a point, you did it from the present.Well done! And no sarcastism here.
BTW are you trying to suggest here by saying 'banned weapons having similar effects' that Pakistan has been using isreali made weapons??

Agreed.We should not discuss causes of his death because it furthur increase public anger and hatred for our leaders and their instruments.

Sir you didn't get what i was actually trying to here.

Anywaz, i think we shouldnt carry this on any more already a brother of ours has felt bad and blamed me of being a racist! We are Pakistanis and Phustuns are an asset for out country.

BTW who told both of you to use such nicks...aren't they showing racism!

Waraich, Arain, Jat, Gujar, Phustun, Jatoi, Kakar, Bugti and Mohajir etc etc

These look guud as an e-mail id, not as a display name at a forum like this one. Just a thought! No hard feelings.
Chill!

 

[Myth_buster_1]

waraich66;287914

EDITED: No personal attacks please. just who the heck is "WE" "WE"! tell me when was the last time you visited pakistan? 10 years? what you have seen about red mosque is only a fake jehadi version which apparently prase that mullah who ran away in a burka like a Pucycat as their "hero".

now tell you hippocrate! you seem to have no problem with saudi kings "your masters" allowing americans to use their land to be used against muslim states invasion such as Iraq, and Afganistan but you have a problem with pakistan fighting terrorists who have done just about anything to terrorize civilians! btw more then 90% of pakistani reject fake jehadi terrorists!

 

[Xeric]

Thanks for the insults and racism. I feel being an outsider already here.

Actually if you had used some positive thoughts on this one, things might have been cooler!
i referred to your nick as a compliment as i was impressed by the magnanimity of your posts, as opposed to the general perceptions.
But you know, emotional heads do make things complicated.

Anywaz, i apologize for any inconvenience that was caused to you.

But i still stick to my perception of yours as a believer of certain false BS available on different mediums that tends to degrade nobility!

 

[Pashtun]

Scrutinizing the Army, what would you do that? What went wrong, expect that a few anti-state elements made the most out of the situation by maligning the Army and projecting themselves as saviors-that too just for money. And then people like you who believe all that without a single proof. Where are the families of those 300 young girls killed in Lal Masjid.
Lets do some math here:
300 girls=300 families

300 families (5 x individuals each-on average although people from that area do have larger families)=1500 people

1500 people and none expect the few who actually lost their loved ones in the operation were found by the media to shown on the tv.

Apparently the media was very controlled. There were multiple reports, multiple photographs, multiple individual interviews of the families and many private channels aired the interviews. I watched them and I believe many others would have too.

This is what one of the news says abut the parents and families of the affected, close to 600 entertained? thats a large number tho you came up with 1500, but obviously we are working on hypothesis here with whatever information available:

Cheema said the government is taking great strides and making every possible effort to facilitate the parents and relatives of Lal Masjid students.
The spokesman said that over 600 people had been entertained at the facilitation cell at sports complex till date, and had submitted 80 applications regarding their dear ones.
He said out of the 80, 64 applications have been referred for DNA tests and five people were referred to the hospital as their relatives were under treatment there, while one has been identified dead by National Database Registration Authority (NADRA) record. “47 claimants have gone through the DNA tests, so far,” he added.
Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

This is what other independent sources say:

The actual casualty figure still cannot be independently verified. According to some reports, Abdul Sattar Edhi was asked by the government to arrange for as much as four hundred burial shrouds. According to the latest government accounts, no hostages were found inside the mosque premises contradicting its own intelligence reports that women and children were being held against their will. Numerous accounts of witnesses seeing the mosque compound littered with hundreds of bodies. The media personnel were invited to witness the burials of large number of deceased from the Red Mosque. According to them, many coffins contained multiple severed limbs and it was hard to judge if only one victim was being buried in each coffin.
NationMaster - Encyclopedia: Lal Masjid

And that aside, a lot of reports aired in the aftermath of storming the masjid, and seeing the mutilated (burned) bodies and limbs of people, who were ID'd with DNA by those over 600 people came to identify their dead (news up there), is saying something else than what you are saying.

I mean we all know its hard to believe in the official figures, when government is involved herself in the carnage. It's a common sense that people involve will never tell you the fact, isn't it?

 

[Pashtun]

Actually if you had used some positive thoughts on this one, things might have been cooler!
i referred to your nick as a compliment as i was impressed by the magnanimity of your posts, as opposed to the general perceptions.
But you know, emotional heads do make things complicated.

Anywaz, i apologize for any inconvenience that was caused to you.

But i still stick to my perception of yours as a believer of certain false BS available on different mediums that tends to degrade nobility!

Is positive thoughts are saying "Yes Sir" for everything anybody says? I mean of course you are in a forum my friend, and people here will question things you say or agree with you, based on what they know and what you provide.

And thats ok, I know emotions are stronger than reason. I can take your insults as long you keep giving me your opinion about what we discuss. I am just trying to get the both ends of the story. I hope you know there are always two ends of the stories.

Thanks

 

[waraich66]

waraich66;287914

hey idiot! just who the heck is "WE" "WE"! tell me when was the last time you visited pakistan? 10 years? what you have seen about red mosque is only a fake jehadi version which apparently prase that mullah who ran away in a burka like a Pucycat as their "hero".

now tell you hippocrate! you seem to have no problem with saudi kings "your masters" allowing americans to use their land to be used against muslim states invasion such as Iraq, and Afganistan but you have a problem with pakistan fighting terrorists who have done just about anything to terrorize civilians! btw more then 90% of pakistani reject fake jehadi terrorists!

You dont deserve any reply, totally lost in anger and using ultimate insulting remarks but this is because you are feeling guilty.

i can only pray that may God give you hadayat and sense to see things in reality.