'Super Sukhoi' Purchase Likely During Putin's India Visit

[Bobby]

More deals delays coming to india tch tch ...

Must be feeling better now...............

 

[Bobby]

More deals delays coming to india tch tch ...

Must be feeling better now...............

 

[RISING SUN]

We have been purchasing Sukhoi for past 15 years.....after 10 years we should start retiring process...otherwise it will have same fate like Mig-21.

Oldest one with Indian air-force are hardly 7 to 8 years old. not 15 years. Those has been sent to Russia back & SU 30 Super Sukhois are being inducted instead of those old ones. Hope that clears you.

 

[RISING SUN]

We have been purchasing Sukhoi for past 15 years.....after 10 years we should start retiring process...otherwise it will have same fate like Mig-21.

Oldest one with Indian air-force are hardly 7 to 8 years old. not 15 years. Those has been sent to Russia back & SU 30 Super Sukhois are being inducted instead of those old ones. Hope that clears you.

 

[arp2041]

Can someone tell about RCS of Super Sukhois. ?

I read (Defenseblog-njs.blogspot.com: RCS comparisation on World's best Fighter Aircrafts) that su-30mki's RCS is around 20 square metres & since super sukhois will be upgraded su-30mki to Sukhoi Su-35BM levels which has RCS of around 1 square metres, i guess it should be around 1-2 square metres (just a wild guess ).

 

[jha]

You missed many things here buddy.

4-India has made a request for information to MBDA about integrating the Brimstone ground attack missile and the long-range Meteor air-to-air missile on their Su-30s.

I thought it was not final yet. MBDA officials were ready to integrate METEOR with MKIs but IAF has not formally approached them for this. I might be wrong though.

 

[Gessler]

I read (Defenseblog-njs.blogspot.com: RCS comparisation on World's best Fighter Aircrafts) that su-30mki's RCS is around 20 square metres & since super sukhois will be upgraded su-30mki to Sukhoi Su-35BM levels which has RCS of around 1 square metres, i guess it should be around 1-2 square metres (just a wild guess ).

The RCS figures on the net about Su-35 are bogus. It's not possible for the Flanker airframe to have
such a low RCS (even clean load). It's more like 4-5m2 easily.

 

[Gessler]

I read (Defenseblog-njs.blogspot.com: RCS comparisation on World's best Fighter Aircrafts) that su-30mki's RCS is around 20 square metres & since super sukhois will be upgraded su-30mki to Sukhoi Su-35BM levels which has RCS of around 1 square metres, i guess it should be around 1-2 square metres (just a wild guess ).

The RCS figures on the net about Su-35 are bogus. It's not possible for the Flanker airframe to have
such a low RCS (even clean load). It's more like 4-5m2 easily.

 

[Agent_47]

sry,Which will be "super "
Old 40 inducted or the new 40 under new contract ?

 

[RISING SUN]

I thought it was not final yet. MBDA officials were ready to integrate METEOR with MKIs but IAF has not formally approached them for this. I might be wrong though.

IAF has approached & MBDA is ready to sell.
IAF gets lowdown on the Royal Air Force
The Royal Air Force has given Indian Air Force the lowdown on how it blitzed Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's air defences and destroyed his armoured forces during the ongoing Operation Ellamy, the UK's contribution to the Libya action.

Top RAF officials have given classified briefings
to IAF chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne on the use of precision attack weapons such as Brimstone and Storm Shadow missiles, manufactured by European defence major MBDA Missile Systems, to strike at the fallen dictator's military machine.

MBDA Missile Systems military adviser Russ Martin confirmed that presentations were made at the Air headquarters in New Delhi, highlighting the role of these missiles in tearing down military infrastructure and supply lines without causing civilian casualties.

The move comes at a time when the IAF has shifted its gaze to arming its fighters with latest multi-role precision strike munitions, visual range dominance weapons and beyond visual range missiles.

Frank Morgan, head of UK Airborne, MBDA, said Brimstone air-to-surface missiles launched from RAF's Tornado GR4 fighters scored direct hits against manoeuvring targets including tanks in Libya.

"A fighter jet can fire a salvo of six missiles to destroy an equal number of tanks or non-armoured targets. The RAF found it to be a highly accurate and low collateral damage weapon," Morgan said at MBDA's Lostock facility outside Manchester.

The presentations made to the IAF dealt with the role of air power in changing the dynamics of conflict in Libya when an operation was underway to enforce a UN-backed no-fly zone in Libya. Storm Shadow missiles were fired from Tornado GR4s to destroy radar stations and anti-aircraft batteries.

"The experience in Libya has shown that capabilities such as deep strike, precision close-air support and air superiority based on the highest level of technology are a must to succeed in a conflict. Our missiles were used extensively," MBDA CEO Antoine Bouvier said at the firm's Stevenage facility outside London.

Brimstone is being sought by both France and the United States. MBDA has also received a request for information from the IAF for arming the Sukhoi-30 with Brimstone and Meteor, a beyond visual range air-to-air missile.

Martin said both Eurofighter Typhoon and Dassault Rafale, angling for the IAF's $10.2 billion contract to supply 126 fighter jets, were capable of deploying Meteor, a missile whose no escape zone is touted to be three times greater than that of current medium range air-to air missiles.

(The writer is in the UK at the invitation of MBDA Missile Systems)

 

[RISING SUN]

sry,Which will be "super "
Old 40 inducted or the new 40 under new contract ?

Old ones have been sent to Russia recently,so it is quite evident that IAf will replace them with Super Sukhois. final mark is 272 for now. Jets have been bought in many batches even in 40 no too,so it is not clear. Only thin'g is clear that 232 jets will be standard MKI"s while other 40s will be Super Sukhois.

 

[Jon Snow]

It will have much better airframe,stealth optimized(not fully),RCS will heavily come down, Zhuk AE AESA radar, next generation avionics,next gen missiles(MBDA missiles added,MICA,Storm Shadow).
Su 30 MKI has already 3d TVC. Engines are more than enough,they only need to be tweaked as per requirement.

Meteor on the MKI will make it unbeatable in BVR(Among 4th gen fighters).
Engines might not be enough when RAM and other goodies are added(extra weight). Even now the T/W ratio is only 1.01, I think the 117S of the su35bm might be a good option.

 

[Abingdonboy]

Old ones have been sent to Russia recently,so it is quite evident that IAf will replace them with Super Sukhois. final mark is 272 for now. Jets have been bought in many batches even in 40 no too,so it is not clear. Only thin'g is clear that 232 jets will be standard MKI"s while other 40s will be Super Sukhois.

I think we can expect atleast 300 MKIs (JMHO) and whilst the latest 42 will be upgraded to the full "SUPER" standard with all th e bells and whistles (air-launch Bhramos,Air-launch Nirbhay and all the others conducive with a "deep upgrade") the others will have their MLU within the next 3-4 years wherein much of the "SUPER" upgrades will be installed such as new MFDs,HMDS,MAWS,RWR,AESA etc it is just these birds won't undergo the extenisve structual modification that the "SUPER" std will that allow them to launch Bhramos and the like. This is the ONLY difference- the avionics and such will be identical.

sry,Which will be "super "
Old 40 inducted or the new 40 under new contract ?

Nah, as has been reported the old SU-30Ks that the IAF had sent back are now nothing to do with the IAF and most likely will be sold to a third party.

 

[RISING SUN]

No, so far we have made the deal to procure 40 + 2 (replacements) additional fighter, but the Super 30 upgrade is still not fully decided. We only have several rumors about what the upgrade will contain, but not even which radar it will get is for sure yet.

Here you go,this for upgradation of all SU fighters.
Modernisation of Fighter Planes SU-30
There is proposal to upgrade the SU-30 MKI aircraft of the Indian Air Force by M/s Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) with the support of the Russian Original Equipment Manufacturer.

The current estimated cost is Rs. 10920 crores and the aircraft are likely to be upgraded in a phased manner from year 2012 onwards.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in written reply to Shri Brijlal Khabri in Rajya Sabha today.
Press Information Bureau English Releases

Rs 15,000 crore Sukhoi deal cleared
NEW DELHI: The Cabinet Committee on Security earlier this month quietly cleared one of the biggest defence orders of recent times.

The almost Rs 15,000 crore order for an additional 42 Sukhoi-30 MKI fighters would add up the total number of these modern Russian fighters for Indian Air Force to 272.
When the entire Sukhoi-30 MKIs, including the 42, are delivered to IAF by around 2018, it would become the single largest type of fighters in service, marking a huge technological transition from the dominance of MIG-21 fighters today.

A senior official said the CCS cleared the new order in the first week of June.

By the time HAL begins manufacture of the 42 aircraft sometime in 2014, each of them would cost in the range of Rs 350 crore, according to present day projections.

The new order for Sukhoi-30 MKIs comes even as attention is fully on the tender floated by the Air Force for $10 billion worth 126 MMRCA (medium multi role combat aircraft). But by the time the MMRCA enters the service, it would be the Sukhoi-30 MKI that would actually be the dominant fighter of the Air Force. And the combined contract value of SU-30 MKIs would be more than double that of the MMRCA.

The Su-30 MKI was originally contracted in 1996, when the Russian military-industrial complex was in a shambles after the Soviet Union collapsed. Its design and capabilities, however, continues to impress globally.

The initial contract was for 50 fighters, at $1.46 billion. Over the years, the numbers kept increasing. In 2000, the government contracted the licenced production of 140 of these highly advanced fighters by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited. Then another 40 were added to the contract.

The present order for 42 fighters was originally supposed to be 40, but two more were added to the order book to make up for the two crashed fighters. A senior official said that HAL is expected to complete all the SU-30 MKI orders by 2016-17 period.

HAL has been steadily stepping up its Sukhoi-30 MKI delivery schedules. While last year it delivered 23 of these fighters, this year it is expected to produce 28. HAL has already supplied 74 of these fighters.
Rs 15,000 crore Sukhoi deal cleared - Times Of India

This is for Super Sukhois.
Russia wins large contract to modernize Indian Su-30MKI fighters - media
India has placed orders with the Russian defense industry to modernize Su-30MKI Flanker-H fighters produced in India under the Russian license, India Today magazine reported in its June issue, without disclosing the sum of the contract.

The project codenamed Super 30 stipulates the installation of new radars, onboard computers, electronic warfare systems and BrahMos supersonic missiles on 40 Su-30MKI fighters, the magazine said.

The Indian Air Force currently operates about 100 Su-30MKI fighters and plans to produce another 170 aircraft in the next 10 years under the Russian license.

India has a long history of defense ties with Moscow. The current cooperation program comprises about 200 joint projects, including the transfer of technology for the licensed assembly of T-90 tanks in India, the production of BrahMos missiles and the purchase of Smerch MLRS by India.

The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km (180 miles) and can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg (660 lbs). It can effectively engage ground targets from an altitude as low as 10 meters (30 feet) and has a top speed of Mach 2.8, which is about three times faster than the U.S.-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile.

Established in 1998, BrahMos Aerospace, a joint Indian-Russian venture, produces and markets BrahMos supersonic missiles. The sea-based and land-based versions have been successfully tested and put into service with the Indian Army and Navy.

NEW DELHI, May 30 (RIA Novosti)
Russia wins large contract to modernize Indian Su-30MKI fighters - media | World | RIA Novosti

This one too.
Strategic Command to acquire 40 nuclear capable fighters
With an aim of increasing its lethal power, India's tri-services strike force is planning to acquire 40 fighter planes capable of delivering nuclear weapons. The Strategic Forces Command (SFC) has submitted a proposal to the Defence Ministry for setting up two dedicated squadrons of
fighter aircraft which will act as "mini-Air Force", ministry sources said.

This will be the first time that SFC, which at present depends on the Indian Air Force for delivering nuclear weapons under its command, will have its own aerial assets, they said.

The SFC does not want untested fighters but the ones which are battle proven and have capabilities to deliver nuclear-tipped missiles, the sources said.

The aircraft planned to be procured are part of efforts to strengthen the nuclear delivery system which right now is based on land-based ballistic missiles such as the Agni and Prithvi and nuclear-capable fighters such as the Mirage 2000, Su-30 MKI and Jaguars.

Created in January 2003, the SFC is part of the Nuclear Command Authority (NCA) and is responsible for the management and administration of the country's tactical and strategic nuclear weapons stockpile.

Attempts are underway to complete the nuclear triad by developing the indigenous Arihant class nuclear submarine and under-sea launched versions of the existing ballistic missile systems.

India's nuclear doctrine envisages building a credible minimum deterrent for maintaining a 'second strike capability' which will be massive and designed to induce unacceptable damage on the enemy.

The SFC is headed by a three-star officer from any of the three services and is responsible for implementing directives of the NCA. At present, the force is headed by Lieutenant General B S Nagal.

The force manages and administers all strategic forces by exercising complete command and control over nuclear assets, and producing all contingency plans as needed to fulfil the required tasks.

The operational missile groups of the Army are armed with the 150-250 km short-range Prithvi missiles and the others with the Agni missiles of ranges above 1,5000 km form the nucleus of SFC.
Strategic Command to acquire 40 nuclear capable fighters - Hindustan Times

50 + 140 + 40 - 3 = 227 + 42 = 269 (after the deal of 40 + 2 was fixed, we lost another MKI, it's possible that IAF wants to replace that as well)
That is 100% correct buddy.


That's speculation buddy, radar can be Zhuk AE, or BARS AESA, missiles initially planned were ASTRA, RCS reduction includes composites and RAM and not stealth features, besides Bhramos and possibly newer versions of R77 / Astra, I think Sudharshan LGB will be integrated as well.

For Radar part mate.
The Zhuk-AE AESA [Click for more ...] is an offspring of the Zhuk-MF/MFE variant, a 0.7 m diameter aperture PESA derivative of the N010M Zhuk-M and Zhuk-ME variants, and was developed for the MiG-35 Fulcrum being bid for India's MRCA requirement to replace initially 128 of around 400 legacy Russian fighters.

The potentially large size of the Indian order has seen Western and Russian bidders disclose remarkably large amounts of data on their products, and Phazotron produced a special issue of their house journal Phazotron, which contains some very good technical papers by Phazotron engineers detailing the internals of the Zhuk-AE and its underlying design philosophy. This is the single biggest technical disclosure on any AESA design, globally, to date. This APA analysis is largely based upon this document, but also exploits other open source materials.
The starting point for the Zhuk AE design was the existing Zhuk MF, as Phazotron's engineers correctly assessed that the cost and risk of an entirely new design would be too great. In this respect they followed the model used by Raytheon in the APG-79 and Northrop-Grumman in the APG-80, rather than the 'all new' approach seen with the Northrop Grumman APG-77. The aim was to re-engineer the PESA design for a new liquid cooled AESA, retaining as much of the PESA design as was feasible. Key design aims were to provide improved reliability, agile beamsteering, reduced noise figure to improve range, and much greater bandwidth to provide frequency agility, facilitating aperture use in jamming and high rate datalinking. Frequency agility was clearly sought with Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) modes in mind, even if not stated.
Phazotron summarise the key design components as:

Antenna face with radiator elements.
TR channel electronics, each connected to a radiator element.
Cold plate liquid cooling system.
Array power supply.
Control logic for each TR channel.
RF feed for the array.
Secondary power supplies.
Beam control processor to generate beamsteering commands.
In terms of gross power aperture performance the Zhuk AE looks good in peak power, competing well against all Flanker radars including the N011M BARS, but suffering like all F-16 and F/A-18 sized radars from a small aperture size, which compromises overall detection range performance.
What is clear is that a MiG-29/33/35 Fulcrum fitted with a Zhuk AE will robustly outperform baseline F-16 and F/A-18 configurations, other than the F/A-18E/F/BII. It will not be competitive against any F-15 radar.
The big long term prize for Russia's radar industry is the block upgrade market for earlier Flanker variant fleets. This market is dominated by early Su-27SK, J-11B, Su-30MKK, and Su-30MK2 variants, all of which are equipped with low peak power rated legacy N001/N001V series MSA radars, built using 1980s MSA technology. This market comprises up to 500 aircraft upgrades, especially the PLA-AF and PLA-N fleets (Xinhua).
Zhuk ASE AESA - Scaling the Zhuk AE for the Flanker
With a peak power rating of 10 Watts/channel the latter yields a peak power of the order of 16.3 kW which results in a radar which outperforms the N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-71 and APG-79 in raw power aperture performance. Such a radar could reach IOC around 2010 if it is funded properly, in step with the timelines for the NIIP Irbis E.

If Phazotron improve the TR channel power rating as they have stated an intent to do, then the results bear some careful consideration. Tabulating options yields some interesting results.


Estimated detection range chart for variants of the Zhuk ASE AESA equipped with a range of Transmit Receive Module power ratings per channel. The detection range performance of the 10 and 12 Watt module equipped Zhuk ASE is similar to the Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis-E hybrid ESA in the Su-35BM/Su-35-1, and much superior to the N011M BARS. The performance of Zhuk ASE if equipped with modules rated above 15 Watts is superior to the Irbis E. Receiver noise figure and effective aperture area are assumed to be similar. N011M performance is based on parametric data and is better than NIIP cited figures (Author).
Notional Zhuk ASE: Radars/Fighters Power Aperture Comparison
TR Channel Peak Power [W] Radars Outperformed by Zhuk ASE Fighter Types Equipped
10.0 N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81 Su-30MK, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
12.0 N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81 Su-30MK, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
15.0 N035 Irbis E, N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81 Su-30MK/35BM, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
20.0 N035 Irbis E, N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81 Su-30MK/35BM, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
25.0 N035 Irbis E, N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81 Su-30MK/35BM, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
Phazotron Zhuk AE: Assessing Russia's First AESA

Fierce fighter
Delhi: The IAF has begun the 'Super 30' project to upgrade its Sukhoi-30MKI fighters with new radars, mission computers, electronic warfare systems and Brahmos missiles. Recently cleared by the Cabinet Committee on Security, the Sukhoi design bureau will start upgrading two prototypes in Moscow this year.

The first two Super 30s will fly into India in 2012 after which upgrades will be incorporated into the last batch of 40 Sukhois being licence-built at HAL, Nasik, from 2015. The IAF operates around 100 Su-30mkis and will add another 170 in the next decade.
Fierce fighter : Radar - India Today

Russia wins large contract to modernize Indian Su-30MKI fighters - media
NEW DELHI, May 30 (RIA Novosti) - India has placed orders with the Russian defense industry to modernize Su-30MKI Flanker-H fighters produced in India under the Russian license, India Today magazine reported in its June issue, without disclosing the sum of the contract.

The project codenamed Super 30 stipulates the installation of new radars, onboard computers, electronic warfare systems and BrahMos supersonic missiles on 40 Su-30MKI fighters, the magazine said.

The Indian Air Force currently operates about 100 Su-30MKI fighters and plans to produce another 170 aircraft in the next 10 years under the Russian license.

India has a long history of defense ties with Moscow. The current cooperation program comprises about 200 joint projects, including the transfer of technology for the licensed assembly of T-90 tanks in India, the production of BrahMos missiles and the purchase of Smerch MLRS by India.

The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km (180 miles) and can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg (660 lbs). It can effectively engage ground targets from an altitude as low as 10 meters (30 feet) and has a top speed of Mach 2.8, which is about three times faster than the U.S.-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile.

Established in 1998, BrahMos Aerospace, a joint Indian-Russian venture, produces and markets BrahMos supersonic missiles. The sea-based and land-based versions have been successfully tested and put into service with the Indian Army and Navy.
Russia wins large contract to modernize Indian Su-30MKI fighters - media
I think that will good idea how much we are caring for our money. India never goes for untested platforms.

 

[RISING SUN]

I think we can expect atleast 300 MKIs (JMHO) and whilst the latest 42 will be upgraded to the full "SUPER" standard with all th e bells and whistles (air-launch Bhramos,Air-launch Nirbhay and all the others conducive with a "deep upgrade") the others will have their MLU within the next 3-4 years wherein much of the "SUPER" upgrades will be installed such as new MFDs,HMDS,MAWS,RWR,AESA etc it is just these birds won't undergo the extenisve structual modification that the "SUPER" std will that allow them to launch Bhramos and the like. This is the ONLY difference- the avionics and such will be identical.


Nah, as has been reported the old SU-30Ks that the IAF had sent back are now nothing to do with the IAF and most likely will be sold to a third party.

300 no are not bad I don't see any good also because when purchase them even now,it will cost us hell a lot. I will prefer 1 more squadron of Rafale over those. For MLU part there is discussion going on since last three years. Most of the upgrades will be similar to Super Sukhois but no enhanced structure or airframe. Other things I agree with you.