Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions

[trident2010]

Can't understand why so much delay with internal weapons bay. Waiting for new set of weapons tailored made for T-50?

 

[sancho]

Can't understand why so much delay with internal weapons bay. Waiting for new set of weapons tailored made for T-50?

Only because we haven't seen them, doesn't mean they weren't done yet. Till the recent pics with external payloads came out, we only had seen pics with external pylons, which doesn't mean they wouldn't had made weapon trials earlier. Internal carriage and weapon trials obviously are not that visible and would require official pics to be released.
Wrt the weapon pack, I would be more interested in what weapon pack IAF aims for FGFA. It is crucial for us to have an own operational requirement and chose weapons that not only fit to the weapon bays, but also fits to those requirements. So we should only choose those Russain weapons that are good for us and not just everything that is available, just like we shouldn't take any Indian weapon, only because it's Indian.

 

[trident2010]

Only because we haven't seen them, doesn't mean they weren't done yet. Till the recent pics with external payloads came out, we only had seen pics with external pylons, which doesn't mean they wouldn't had made weapon trials earlier. Internal carriage and weapon trials obviously are not that visible and would require official pics to be released.
Wrt the weapon pack, I would be more interested in what weapon pack IAF aims for FGFA. It is crucial for us to have an own operational requirement and chose weapons that not only fit to the weapon bays, but also fits to those requirements. So we should only choose those Russain weapons that are good for us and not just everything that is available, just like we shouldn't take any Indian weapon, only because it's Indian.

Yes thats true that they might have done it already but not showing it in open. For external pylons, IAF will have many options but for an internal weapons bay, it is advisible to go with what Russia is offering and later develop/codevelop the weapons require as we get more insight into FGFA capabilities and requirments.

 

[Black Widow]

Weapon bay .. whats in the weapon bay ?
When will it open its weapon bay ???

Chocolate, Milk cake, Candies, Ice-cream in the weapon bay

 

[sancho]

Yes thats true that they might have done it already but not showing it in open. For external pylons, IAF will have many options but for an internal weapons bay, it is advisible to go with what Russia is offering and later develop/codevelop the weapons require as we get more insight into FGFA capabilities and requirments.

I disagree, we know the specs of the internal weapon bay, so can evaluate suitable weapons even today. If we have better weapons on offer, why use Russian once? KAB 500 for example is a standard bomb for Russian fighters, that we can replace by Sudarshan especially if we really develop an extended range version. SPICE 250 is a weapon the Israelis purposly develop for Internal weapon bays, to fit as many bombs in a small space, for which the Russians have no counterpart so far. Also one important field for stealth fighters will be AAMs, where the Russians offer just some modernised R77 and R73 versions, but basically with the same size and weight specs. But stealth fighters actually would perform better with small missiles and different seekers, at higher loads, since the way doing air combats will be different than to non stealth fighters. So although we develop own Indian weapons for LCA, MKIs, Mig 29s next to Russian weapons, FGFA / AMCA / AURA should be aimed at a different and more suitable weapon pack, at least for the internal weapon bays.

 

[sancho]

Russians busy in testing:

And another one of the weapon flighttests:

 

[MastanKhan]

The Indians HATE Their New Russian-Made Stealth Fighter — Medium


Russia's New T-50 Fighter Still Can't Compete With The F-35

 

[trident2010]

The Indians HATE Their New Russian-Made Stealth Fighter — Medium


Russia's New T-50 Fighter Still Can't Compete With The F-35

The amount of money and time F-35 is taking to shape up is much higher than T-50. I won't be surprised if it is currently more advanced among the two. However, in coming years I am sure Russia will narrow the gap and hopefully come up with a very potent 5th gen fighter.

 

[Donatello]

The amount of money and time F-35 is taking to shape up is much higher than T-50. I won't be surprised if it is currently more advanced among the two. However, in coming years I am sure Russia will narrow the gap and hopefully come up with a very potent 5th gen fighter.

USA is the only country to field a full stealth plane. Starting from the SR71 (not fully stealth, but had the design input towards low observability), B2, F117, F22 and F35, they have a solid 50 years of experience. Russia has none, and neither does China. Building a true stealth plane is a momentous task. Pouring in money will take you only so far. Aerospace is a far more challenging field.

Ever wonder why there is no company in the world to challenge Boeing and Airbus in widebody duopoly? It took Major industrial powers of Europe to piece together Airbus and they have come a long way. Stealth 5Gen is something far more complicated. As seen on T-50, the engines nozzles themselves give a hint that Russians don't have full stealth program running. It will take years to refine the prototypes and then finally decide on the production models. YF-22 came a long way to become the F/A22. And it wasn't without it's share of problems, despite Lockheed having years of experience in the field. They pretty much defined it.

 

[Robin_k]

In first link issue regarding engine and radar discussed many times nothing new and in 2nd link writer talking about export date not technology .

then what's your point?

 

[sancho]

I won't be surprised if it is currently more advanced among the two.

I would be surprised, because spending more doesn't make it more capable! Remember this capability comparison of the EF consortium?

And I added the Pak Fa / FGFA once to the comparison too:

People simply tend to downplay the Pak Fa compared to the F35 based on the bias, that the US have more experience with stealth and that their shapings therefor must be the only solution. But when you actually look at what it takes to be a 5th gen fighter and compare the F35 with it, you will see that it falls short in many areas and even in stealth compared to the better designed F22, which is why several US allies wanted the F22 instead of the F35 and complained about the stealth capability.

Even if you compare the fighter to US definitions of a 5th gen fighter, it clearly fulfills all criterias:

Dominant situational awareness - long range, high FoV AESA (fixed) radar, 360° electro optical sensor capability, RWR, LWR, dedicated IRST - CHECK, equal or even superior to US counterparts!

Net enabled - data link and SATCOM guidance planned from the start - CHECK!

Designed in stealth - aligned edges, angled airframe design, embedded antennas, internal store carriage - CHECK, except for the engine coverings and the nozzles of the current engine, which as we know are a stop gap solution for Russian forces and make it design wise more comparable to the F35 shapings.

Tech insertation => embedded antennas - CHECK!

Full line of sight blockage - partially so far, due to design of the inlets and positioning of the engine, while the final solution for the NG engine is still to come and most likely includes a radar blocker, similar to Boeing or Mitsubishi stealth fighter projects.


So except for the areas that are aimed for the later Pak Fa and the FGFA, it already not only fits the bill, but sets new benchmarks in this generation. But as long as people keep looking at the engines and keep ignoring all the other capabilities and the performances it already shows in the T50 prototype stage, we will keep hearing silly things.

 

[trident2010]

I would be surprised, because spending more doesn't make it more capable! Remember this capability comparison of the EF consortium?

And I added the Pak Fa / FGFA once to the comparison too:

People simply tend to downplay the Pak Fa compared to the F35 based on the bias, that the US have more experience with stealth and that their shapings therefor must be the only solution. But when you actually look at what it takes to be a 5th gen fighter and compare the F35 with it, you will see that it falls short in many areas and even in stealth compared to the better designed F22, which is why several US allies wanted the F22 instead of the F35 and complained about the stealth capability.

Even if you compare the fighter to US definitions of a 5th gen fighter, it clearly fulfills all criterias:

Dominant situational awareness - long range, high FoV AESA (fixed) radar, 360° electro optical sensor capability, RWR, LWR, dedicated IRST - CHECK, equal or even superior to US counterparts!

Net enabled - data link and SATCOM guidance planned from the start - CHECK!

Designed in stealth - aligned edges, angled airframe design, embedded antennas, internal store carriage - CHECK, except for the engine coverings and the nozzles of the current engine, which as we know are a stop gap solution for Russian forces and make it design wise more comparable to the F35 shapings.

Tech insertation => embedded antennas - CHECK!

Full line of sight blockage - partially so far, due to design of the inlets and positioning of the engine, while the final solution for the NG engine is still to come and most likely includes a radar blocker, similar to Boeing or Mitsubishi stealth fighter projects.


So except for the areas that are aimed for the later Pak Fa and the FGFA, it already not only fits the bill, but sets new benchmarks in this generation. The but as long as people keep looking at the engines and keep ignoring all the other capabilities and the performances it already shows in the T50 prototype stage, we will keep hearing silly things.

Thanks for reply. Few senior Pakistani members are trying hard to disregard the achievements of T-50. I am sure all these things are already mentioned elsewhere but what one can do..

 

[sancho]

Thanks for reply. Few senior Pakistani members are trying hard to disregard the achievements of T-50. I am sure all these things are already mentioned elsewhere but what one can do..

I don't think that was the aim, in fact the article that claimed that India hates the FGFA is based on the nonsense that Ajay Shukla spread in his article, so Indians that talk silly things have their share too.

 

[sancho]

Some older, but very beautiful pics:

 

[Sergi]

@sancho : any visible changes in 055(-1 ???) from other prototypes ???