Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[hj786]

A fair fight is only possible if the MKI is put against multiple JF's at a time. Other than that, MKI reigns over in literally everything, leave alone dogfighting.
Infact even the LCA would be a toughnut for the JF. Especially because of its avionics, and capability to carry more weapons, since is much lighter.

Again a conflict wouldnt be just a JF vs MKI. It would be PAF vs IAF. That means, everything that flies needs to complement everything on the ground supporting it.

It's not as simple as that. A fair fight is possible if JF is provided with force multipliers. You're wrong, LCA would be just as tough to JF as JF to LCA. JF has similar avionics, weapons load and lighter doesn't mean winner.

Assuming JF-17 datalinked with AWAC
1.) What type of data link JF-17 will use for connect to AWAC?
2.) How many Aircrafts can be able connect to a single Erieye?
3.) Normally AWAC is used to find out ground based targets. So what is the azimuth of an Erieye?

JF-17 WILL be data-linked to AWACS. Why deny JF-17 will be datalinked when you don't deny Su-30, LCA will be data-linked? Even PAC's own website says it will be datalinked and that hasn't been updated in over 5 years. Ex Air Chief said many times datalinks between Erieye and Chinese jets would be set up. Everything you have asked about is kept secret, only monkey figures are released to the public.

JF17 in its current configuration is a fairly basic plane. when compared to modern 4th generation fighters.
No composites, all alluminium build.
Yes it is fairly basic compared to other modern 4th gen planes. It does have composites, what the hell do you think the radar radome is made of? Full production planes will have carbon composite control surfaces according to one source I read.
NO CANARDS or TVC
So? F-16E has no canards, F-18E has no canards, Su-35 (the latest air superiority one, is it the Su-35BM?) has no canards.
Standard Russian RD93 engine comparable to that on MIG29.
Will be replaced with a better engine.

Chinease KLJ radar which is inferior to Bars Pesa radar.
Data-linked to Swedish Erieye radar and similar Chinese radar, both superior to Bars Pesa radar.
Very limited range of weapons ie variety/MIX is minimal as china is stil behind Russia and the West in this respect.
Nope and not for too long. You really don't know anything do you? China has three close combat AAMs (2 for export), an old BVRAAM comparable to Sparrow, a new BVRAAM comparable to R-77, satellite guided bombs newly developed, laser guided bombs plus targeting pods (the latest FILAT pod includes FLIR as well),anti-radiation missiles, a huge array of anti-ship cruise missiles. This is all the stuff that is already developed, they also have another close combat AAM comparable to A-darter and a ramjet BVRAAM in development. Then there's the Pakistani stuff - H-2/H-4 glide bombs, Ra'ad ALCM, HAFR-1/2 (Matra Durandal), cluster bombs, etc. This is just the stuff that I have read about, the list goes on for both Pakistan and China.

BVR capability for first time in PAF.
Very low cost can BE acquired in LARGE nos.
Great upgrade potential
WILL BE LICENSE built in PAC. SO NO embargos...
It won't be licence built, it will be built by its co-developer.

BUT JF17 in current block cannot live with SU30MKI without AWACS (true)
and
F16/52.. IN SUPPORT. (false) Thankfully (for PAF, not InAF) jf17 will have both as back up... and more.

do you need more reasons to believe mki is better than jf17......what denial!!! But yes jf17 i think is good enough for mig29 and the mirages........mig21 is a generation behind(4 to 3.75)......thnx

You need more reasons to believe JF-17 can defend Pak airspace against MKI? What denial!

 

[hocuspocush]

Found a very good article which lists the sanctions/procurements and new purchases by the PAF:

southasiaanalysis.org/papers2/paper166.htm

NOTE: This article was written on 4-12-00.

 

[zombie:-)]

Its completely farcical to compare the MKI to the JF-17. They are a class apart, MKI is a heavy air-superiority fighter, the JF is more a a backbone to the older F-15s PAF. So far, I have not seen any substantial stats that favour the JF over the MKI. Any person with a miniscule knowledge about military aviation would completely back the MKI.

A fair fight is only possible if the MKI is put against multiple JF's at a time. Other than that, MKI reigns over in literally everything, leave alone dogfighting.
Infact even the LCA would be a toughnut for the JF. Especially because of its avionics, and capability to carry more weapons, since is much lighter.

Again a conflict wouldnt be just a JF vs MKI. It would be PAF vs IAF. That means, everything that flies needs to complement everything on the ground supporting it.

hullo arent we saying this from day one ....no one can predict untill it happens ...even our ACM F.HOMI MAJOR had said "jf-17 is no doubt a good aircraft ,but its not something we (IAF) will be really worrying about"...this sums up everything from the most important guy in IAF ...but its not the guy in an MKI would chicken out while facing it ...a pilot facing the MKI with indiffenrent and inferior equipment needs immense courage and daredevilry .....first the guy has to face the mki to fight it right

 

[Jako]

It's not as simple as that. A fair fight is possible if JF is provided with force multipliers. You're wrong, LCA would be just as tough to JF as JF to LCA. JF has similar avionics, weapons load and lighter doesn't mean winner.

JF-17 WILL be data-linked to AWACS. Why deny JF-17 will be datalinked when you don't deny Su-30, LCA will be data-linked? Even PAC's own website says it will be datalinked and that hasn't been updated in over 5 years. Ex Air Chief said many times datalinks between Erieye and Chinese jets would be set up. Everything you have asked about is kept secret, only monkey figures are released to the public.




You need more reasons to believe JF-17 can defend Pak airspace against MKI? What denial!

the thunder WILL have better engine......the thunder WILL have larger composites......the chinese WILL develop and you thus WILL have better weapons......and you dont even have a squadron yet.......new engine means modified airframe,which means more time.......whereas the su30mki is reality,and what we say to back it are already present in the mki........and why do you forget the phalcon awacs,i bet the mki and the phalcon together will give india a huge boost to gain air dominance.....btw, this is your first bvr capable jet,whereas even the indian mig21bison is bvr capable.....so there should'nt be any problem,taking the experience in this type of combats into consideration....thnx

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

hullo arent we saying this from day one ....

Yes - but it has also been argued from day one that it is 'farcical' to merely compare one fighter to another, 'on paper', when Air Combat will involve multiple systems and resources.

Its not as if the JF-17 would engage the MKI in a vacuum, with only on board systems and their respective capabilities employed.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

the thunder WILL have better engine.

Even with the existing engines, can the MKI or Thunder outrun AAM's or LRAAM's?

the thunder WILL have larger composites

Even with existing materials, does the MKI not have a huge radar sig.?

the chinese WILL develop and you thus WILL have better weapons

It is moot to argue that the Chinese will develop better weapons - its pretty much guaranteed, as it is for almost any country involved in extensive R&D, but is the existing weaponry (say SD-10) inferior enough to make a significant difference? And if it is, why?

and you dont even have a squadron yet

Numbers will increase, since production is on, and funds have been allocated. This discussion is over a hypothetical scenario of whether the Thunder will hold its own in combat between two air forces with all of their supporting systems and resources deployed

It will not be two AC in combat in a vacuum.

 

[Screaming Skull]

Its not as if the JF-17 would engage the MKI in a vacuum, with only on board systems and their respective capabilities employed.

The reverse is also true. Isn't it? You think the MKI will take on any other aircraft in the world by itself when IAF has Phalcons, UAVs and spy sats in its inventory? If you are bringing in other systems into your argument then you should rename this thread to JF+AWACS+UAVs vs MKI. Else, am afraid its only JF+JF systems+JF subsystems vs MKI+MKI systems+MKI subsystems.

 

[hj786]

the thunder WILL have better engine.....
The engine is in development NOW. What the hell do you think they WILL do with it, put in a freaking museum?
the thunder WILL have larger composites......
I have seen several sources saying that it will. Can you provide several to me that say it won't? No? Then go post that crap somewhere else.
the chinese WILL develop and you thus WILL have better weapons......
The Chinese ARE developing better weapons, again, are they going to forget to arm their planes with them?
you dont even have a squadron yet.......
Are you a fool? There is a squadron of 8 small batch production (not prototypes, but not production models) aircraft undergoing weapons integration. Do I have to show you the pictures?

new engine means modified airframe,which means more time.......
How do you know the new engine is not designed to fit the same airframe as the current engine?

whereas the su30mki is reality, and what we say to back it are already present in the mki........
You don't know anything about what is currently present in the JF, only the PAF pilots flying it and the engineers integrating the weapons do. Stop whining when we back the JF if you want to back the MKI, hypocrite.

and why do you forget the phalcon awacs,i bet the mki and the phalcon together will give india a huge boost to gain air dominance.....
Good for India. But they seem like overkill for shooting down unarmed aeroplanes.

btw, this is your first bvr capable jet,
Wrong. F-16A is BVR capable, Mirage ROSE is BVR capable.
whereas even the indian mig21bison is bvr capable.....so there should'nt be any problem,taking the experience in this type of combats into consideration....
You think the PAF has no experience with BVRAAMs even though it has been sending pilots to fly for several Arab air forces who have the latest planes and BVRAAMs? Flying in exercises against air forces who have used BVRAAMs for decades?
thnx For what? Providing you a nice clean space to post your BS on?

The reverse is also true. Isn't it? You think the MKI will take on any other aircraft in the world by itself when IAF has Phalcons, UAVs and spy sats in its inventory? If you are bringing in other systems into your argument then you should rename this thread to JF+AWACS+UAVs vs MKI. Else, am afraid its only JF+JF systems+JF subsystems vs MKI+MKI systems+MKI subsystems.

Yes the reverse is true. But we don't live in a dream world, a real life "Air Fight" between the two aeroplanes WOULD involve other systems, therefore we can argue that other systems supporting the JF would help even the playing field and MKI is not so superior as it is being made out to be by the fanboys.

I'll happily admit that a current JF would not be in a good position against an MKI, 1v1 with no support to either plane. But that better be the case when the MKI costs 3 times more. Of course 3 JF-17 against one MKI would be a different story. Then if you sink some of that money into the JF...

However, I am sure the Pakistan Defence Forces will be aware of this and might be taking appropriate steps to counter such huge advantages such as Saab2000 but I still doubt the huge advantageous position of satellite imaging system which can precisely indicate the enemy position be is Army, Navy or Air Force.

Good post, but I have some points to raise. The Chinese provide every kind of technology to Pakistan. Firstly, if Pakistan wanted it, wouldn't they provide a high resolution imaging satellite for intelligence? Secondly, even if they will not, don't you think they'd happily provide as much imagery as PAF wants? They'll happily sell pretty much anything else.

 

[Jako]

@hj786....does pakistan have the capability to make a engine?? I guess no....you have to buy it from someone,and that someone is not going to custom make and design the engine specifically for the thunder,otherwise the cost wd be high,which is not pakistan's choice........and this has been said earlier that the thunder will have certain airframe modifications.....and dont try to teach me what is bs........as screaming skull said,why are you comparing the thunder+awacs to the mki,in that case the phalcons and satellite backup comes to the frame.......now you say no one knows bout the real thunder configuration,so why are you continuing your bs.....you dont know if that unknown is for good or bad......so,we may debate on the known configuration of the aircrafts....btw,mods are there to check my posts for any prob,why you bother??thnx(heheh...not for you...you may ignore)

 

[zombie:-)]

Yes - but it has also been argued from day one that it is 'farcical' to merely compare one fighter to another, 'on paper', when Air Combat will involve multiple systems and resources.

Its not as if the JF-17 would engage the MKI in a vacuum, with only on board systems and their respective capabilities employed.

isnt that what i said comparing on paper or a public forum is all the same we cant tell anything untill it really happens .....PLEASE READ MY POST CAREFULLY ...NOT JUST THE FIRST LINE

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The reverse is also true. Isn't it?

Did I suggest the reverse is not true?

You think the MKI will take on any other aircraft in the world by itself when IAF has Phalcons, UAVs and spy sats in its inventory?

Strawman - read above.

If you are bringing in other systems into your argument then you should rename this thread to JF+AWACS+UAVs vs MKI. Else, am afraid its only JF+JF systems+JF subsystems vs MKI+MKI systems+MKI subsystems.

I am pointing out the obvious - I shouldn't have to rename the thread to do that.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

isnt that what i said comparing on paper or a public forum is all the same we cant tell anything untill it really happens .....PLEASE READ MY POST CAREFULLY ...NOT JUST THE FIRST LINE

The rest of your posts suggested nothing of the sort that you are claiming

"even our ACM F.HOMI MAJOR had said "jf-17 is no doubt a good aircraft ,but its not something we (IAF) will be really worrying about"...this sums up everything from the most important guy in IAF ...but its not the guy in an MKI would chicken out while facing it ...a pilot facing the MKI with indiffenrent and inferior equipment needs immense courage and daredevilry .....first the guy has to face the mki to fight it right"

If you have changed your mind, then fine, we'll move on.

 

[hj786]

@hj786....does pakistan have the capability to make a engine?? I guess no....you have to buy it from someone,and that someone is not going to custom make and design the engine specifically for the thunder,otherwise the cost wd be high,which is not pakistan's choice........and this has been said earlier that the thunder will have certain airframe modifications.....and dont try to teach me what is bs........

"Liyang Aero Engine Corporation in Guizhou is reportedly developing an indigenous turbofan engine designated WS-13 (or Tianshan-21) as an alterative powerplant option for the FC-1. The engine was said to have been based on the RD-93 design with some modifications."
FC-1 (JF-17 Thunder) Multirole Fighter Aircraft - SinoDefence.com

More info:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/3373-ws-13-nearing-completion.html (A Chinese article translated)

而早在2003年，关键性的FC-1动力国产As early as in 2003, made a key driving force for the FTC-1 化工Chemical 作就已经开始。For it has begun. 中航一集团宣布，贵州航空发动机研究所配合FC-1的研制工作，开展了涡轮风扇发动机关键技术研究和新型涡轮风扇发动机设计出图等工作，拉开了黎阳AVIC Group Ⅰ announced that the FTC-1 with the Guizhou Institute of Aero-engine development work. Key Technology launched a turbofan engine turbofan engine design, and a new work plan started hong 公司Company 涡轮风扇发动机研制的序幕。Turbofan engine developed in the district.

It has been known for years that WS-13 is under development. How can you sit there and post that "nobody will design an engine for JF" when every article on JF-17 mentions WS-13? This is why I have been calling your posts BS, you don't know what you're talking about.

According to article, parts between current engine and WS-13 are interchangeable so the designs are similar, therefore it is could well be designed to fit the same plane.

as screaming skull said,why are you comparing the thunder+awacs to the mki,in that case the phalcons and satellite backup comes to the frame.......
Answered in the above post I wrote. PAF has access to as much tech as they like from China, people like you always say all of Pakistan's technology is from China. Why wouldn't they give imagery and why wouldn't they sell a satellite?
now you say no one knows bout the real thunder configuration,so why are you continuing your bs.....

I hope the people who are building it know the real configuration.
Pakistan Aeronautical Complex....
"China may also develop its own power plant for the FC-1, although it is also possible that the co-produced version of the Klimov RD-93, called the WS-13, will equip future FC-1s. Also there are plans to include air-to-air refueling probes and modifications incorporating modern avionics.
Pakistan is also looking at adding advanced Western weapons and avionics in the future. It is also looking at the possibility of acquiring anti-radiation missiles, which could be the same as the BVR missile with a different seeker head."
"The capability would be built around highly modern state-of-the-art avionics equipment, which is as follows:
...
* Standard Armament Interface Unit
* Remote Interface Box
* BVR Datalink
* V / UHF Communication System (Qty 02)
* Comm Datalink"

# Other essential equipment like

* Day/ night laser designator pod
* Self Protection Jammer
* IRST
* FLIR
* NVGs
* Helmet Mounted Sight/Display"

"Pakistan is also looking at adding advanced Western weapons and avionics in the future."

Datalinks, IRST, helmet mounted sights, more advanced Western weapons and avionics, new engine. Right from the co-developer and manufacturer. Unfortunately the website is very out-dated so it does not provide the full picture.

Looks like you're the one continuing to post BS, not me.

 

[zombie:-)]

The rest of your posts suggested nothing of the sort that you are claiming

"even our ACM F.HOMI MAJOR had said "jf-17 is no doubt a good aircraft ,but its not something we (IAF) will be really worrying about"...this sums up everything from the most important guy in IAF ...but its not the guy in an MKI would chicken out while facing it ...a pilot facing the MKI with indiffenrent and inferior equipment needs immense courage and daredevilry .....first the guy has to face the mki to fight it right"

If you have changed your mind, then fine, we'll move on.

nothing to change here sir

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

first the guy has to face the mki to fight it right

What is that supposed to mean?