Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[Malang]

Titanium:

TVC is one of the capabilities.. having it is an advantage (not having it is an disadvantage viz-a-viz craft of other similar capabilities)..

Stealth Technology is in itself a very big capability and advantage (for eg B2's were subsonic and yet were never shot down in a battle and has an excellent objective completion efficiency, then why aren;t they used as fighters?)

Further, if F22 and F35 were to compete than F22 with come out triumphant in air-air combat but if both were to compete on being a better strike fighter f35 would come out triumphant.. now is it solely because F22's TVC engine? Not really but it plays a synergistic role...

(another analogy would be some sports car rely on higher BHP some on torque some on reducing weight some on having an excellent dyno graph. etc but ultimately all try to leverage their different advanatages to come out on tops but some cars have a combination of all and some have an outright advantage in one deptt. eg Ariel Atom is a subton car with world's fastest accln amongst all, Bugatti Veyron has a howler of an engine etc.)

 

[asaad-ul-islam]

malang, i don't think superhornet's abilities will exceed that of su-30mki(or should i say su-35). although F-35 is in a different league considering stealth, it can barely carry that much weapons in its internal bay.

as for f-22, TVC featured on the aircraft can only provide vectoring for up and down motion. it's not 2D TVC like su-30mki, which includes left/right and up/down.

 

[Malang]

malang, i don't think superhornet's abilities will exceed that of su-30mki(or should i say su-35).

Super Hornet is not in the league of SU30MKI, else IAF would have asked for SU Flanker family to be included in the MRCA competition...
SU30MKI will form the flagship of the IAF and MRCA as the second in command (flagshipwise)

although F-35 is in a different league considering stealth, it can barely carry that much weapons in its internal bay.

How come stealth impedes its weapons carrying ability?? since B2 can carry truckloads of weapons??

 

[z9-ec]

People, I have said this before and I will say it again.

Both PLAAF and MAF operate SU-30 MKK and MKM, they are equivalent to the versions which IAF operates.

In my opinion, the JF-17 Thunder has already been evaluated in combat exercises with the SU-30 by PAF and if needed the SU-30 can be offered to PAF in combat considering the friendship, mutual interests and cooperation between Pakistan and China.

Malaysia on the other hand is considering JF-17 Thunder for MAF. Algeria after purchasing Mig-29s returned all of them, this happened for the first time in the history of Russiadue to unsatisfactory results.

Which means, the tech edge that Su-30 offers to India is pretty much exposed and future blocks of JF-17 may resemble or be far advanced from what Su offers. The PAF ACM recently said there are advanced versions of JF-17 being worked at which is a clear indication of what I'm trying to say.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

oth PLAAF and MAF operate SU-30 MKK and MKM, they are equivalent to the versions which IAF operates.

PLAAF's Su MKK is not equalent to MKI. It does not have the same avionics or radar as MKI or MKM has. That said MKM and MKI are pretty much the same except that MKM uses fench avionics and MKI along with french uses Israeli avionics.

In my opinion, the JF-17 Thunder has already been evaluated in combat exercises with the SU-30 by PAF and if needed the SU-30 can be offered to PAF in combat considering the friendship, mutual interests and cooperation between Pakistan and China.

I have heard J10 has been evaluated with su 30 mkk, but haven't heard J17 being evaluated against it , in that case we all must have heard about it. Again remember it is not the plane Su alone it is avionics and sensors which differ between the chinese version and the Indian one.

Malaysia on the other hand is considering JF-17 Thunder for MAF

Can you provide the source. Anyways j17 is typically a light aircraft(correct me if I am wrong) and Su 30 is a heavy airdominance fighter, I am sure Malysia would be interested in light aircrafts to complement heavy ones.

Which means, the tech edge that Su-30 offers to India is pretty much exposed and future blocks of JF-17 may resemble or be far advanced from what Su offers

Nope it is the radar and avionics that matter. so you are not exposed.

The PAF ACM recently said there are advanced versions of JF-17 being worked at which is a clear indication of what I'm trying to say.

There is a limitation to how much you can upgrade ie limitation of radar relative to nose size etc. That said J17 has the potential to be a decent point defence fighter.

Also one has to understand that you are alone not moving or evolving in the world, the rest also do it, Su will be constantly upgraded, with first upgradation starting around 2009-2010

 

[Malang]

People, I have said this before and I will say it again.
Both PLAAF and MAF operate SU-30 MKK and MKM, they are equivalent to the versions which IAF operates.

There is a difference in avionics.. and soon in missiles carried too.. also correct me if I am wrong IAF has an option on cards to go in for Irbis-E Radar and the Newer engine (the one on su-35bm)

In my opinion, the JF-17 Thunder has already been evaluated in combat exercises with the SU-30 by PAF and if needed the SU-30 can be offered to PAF in combat considering the friendship, mutual interests and cooperation between Pakistan and China.

in that case USAF can lend Raptors, B2s and Israelis lend F16I' and Russia lend its Tu-160's etc.
first ain't gonna happen (happened during ww2 when US and UK lent Russia planes I think)
second Pak would not be able to operate SU30's

Malaysia on the other hand is considering JF-17 Thunder for MAF.

if their requirement is for sub-20mil$ multirole fighter and numbers then its an awesome craft.

Algeria after purchasing Mig-29s returned all of them, this happened for the first time in the history of Russiadue to unsatisfactory results.

The slimy Russians gave them hand me downs/second hands ones... and which also jeopardized their Su30 deal I think.

Which means, the tech edge that Su-30 offers to India is pretty much exposed and future blocks of JF-17 may resemble or be far advanced from what Su offers.

May I am inclined to believe most definetly not.. a better alt would be J10

The PAF ACM recently said there are advanced versions of JF-17 being worked at which is a clear indication of what I'm trying to say.

Not really.

 

[z9-ec]

PLAAF's Su MKK is not equalent to MKI. It does not have the same avionics or radar as MKI or MKM has. That said MKM and MKI are pretty much the same except that MKM uses fench avionics and MKI along with french uses Israeli avionics.

Nope it is the radar and avionics that matter. so you are not exposed.

In that sense, France is offering the most advanced avionics and other eqiupment to Pakistan.

Futher more, I was refering to the upgrades of the airframe which will eventually make JF-17 a heavy air dominance fighter in the future.

Can you provide the source. Anyways j17 is typically a light aircraft(correct me if I am wrong) and Su 30 is a heavy airdominance fighter, I am sure Malysia would be interested in light aircrafts to complement heavy ones.

Heres one.

Also one has to understand that you are alone not moving or evolving in the world, the rest also do it, Su will be constantly upgraded, with first upgradation starting around 2009-2010

What makes you think Pakistan and China will stand still and watch those upgrades pass by?

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

In that sense, France is offering the most advanced avionics and other eqiupment to Pakistan.

Nothing has been finalised. rb2e offerd is a pesa, so is the current radar in Su , howver Russians are good in PESA and the nose size is big enough to accomodate a biger and a better radar, computer and cooling solutions.

Other then that I dont see anything earth shattering like Spectra etc and morover by the time you have flown a tesbed customised plane Su upgrade would be in its half way mark.

Heres one.

Ther report does not state any thing about JF17 (correct me if I am wrong)

What makes you think Pakistan and China will stand still and watch those upgrades pass by?

I was replyimg to your post where you seem to suggest that the advanced avionics will be added and will provide and edge, what I ment was by the time the advanced avionics are added or the test flight is completed or integration prototype is completed , over half of Su fleet would have been upgraded.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

For the USAF, if the kill ratio is not 5:1 in their favour, the enemy aircraft is extremely deadly.

Secondly, the u s millitary has a habbit of exagerating the opponents capabilities to keep them off the track and create a false sense of supremacy.

Thirdly, comparing the JF 17's abilities equal to those of su 30 is a wishfull thinking---it is a bad assesment and the bad assesment is being made worse. Su 30 has been flying in combat role for awhile now---even though the SU is a very expensive platform to operate, it is a deadly deadly air superioity aircraft---no ifs and buts about it---. JF 17 is yet to grow up---we haven't even seen its teething problems. It is still a baby---it will grow up in a year or so---we will start learning what it can do and what it cannot do---remember the F 16---the designers had only the clues as to how far their imaginations could go---the F 16 performed beyond their wildest of dreams---so, it will take 2 to 3 years before the true JF 17 emerges ( the performance capabilities ).

Similiarly, comparing a Super Hornet and J 10---can't compare it one on one---if you grade the hornet 10 on a scale of 1--10, then the J 10 of today is somewhere around 7---to 7.5---with a stronger engine---Tvc---better avionics and missiles--it will jump upto 8.5---8.75----the difference will depend upon the pilot, the training, the air support that he has and the number of aircraft in an encounter.

In the early 80's when the pakistani pilots were training at Hill AFB, they were praised a lot by the american pilots, had great articles written in the newspapers etc etc----but what the truth was---there was only one pakistani pilot out of the whole batch, who could take any american pilot one on one and beat them on a similiar version of an F 16---there were a few other pakistani pilots who could compete with the american counterparts on a given day---.

The americans have set standards for foreign pilots and their planes---when they say that a foreign pilot is good---it is good on the foreign pilots scale of assesment.

I have said many atimes before---listen to what the americans are saying to you about your abilities and their capabilities---but be wary of what they are not telling you about what they can do and the things you don't know about---in other words---be ready---you will be sucker punched.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

F22 is a stealth craft optimised as a fighter it sacrifices range and storage capacity for maneuverability and speed etc. (IMO)
F35 is a stealth craft optimised as a strike fighter it sacrifices maneuverability, speed etc. for stores and range(IMO)

btw Russians are the whizkids of TVC design and Americans are the geniuses at Stealth.. each exploits one's strengths...

SU-30 mki
max speed: 2.3
range: 3,000 km
F-22
max spped: 2 / 1.7 at cruise speed.
range: 3,290 km


F-22 is able to exert appropriate maneuvers to pull out of danger or engage in a dominate position..
where as fancy stunts by Su-family will not have much effectiveness in BVR era with 5th gen aircrafts, though good for air shows...

the answer is that even in BVR era manouverability matters. the ranges you see on missiles (like 120 km range for AIM 120-C5) is for a head-on shot against a non-manouvering target. if shot at a manouvering target moving away, the range actually falls to around 1/4th of the stated range. this is why manouverability matters. it reduces the no-escape zone of enemy missiles.

i highly advice you to do some research on Aim-120 before you make such undermine statements..

In long-range engagements AMRAAM heads for the target using inertial guidance and receives updated target information via data link from the launch aircraft. It transitions to a self-guiding terminal mode when the target is within range of its own monopulse radar set, operating in high-PRF mode. Since this seeker uses its own active radar it does not require the launch aircraft to illuminate the target or to track the target. In case the target tries to protect itself with active jamming, AMRAAMs seeker switches to a medium-PRF "home-on-jam" mode. With its sophisticated avionics, high closing speed, and excellent end-game maneuverability, chances of escape from AMRAAM are minimal. Upon intercept an active-radar proximity fuze detonates the 40-pound high-explosive warhead to destroy the target. At closer ranges AMRAAM guides itself all the way using its own radar, freeing the launch aircraft to engage other targets. The lethal range of the 40lbs. blast fragmentation warhead has not been disclosed.

Super Hornet is not in the league of SU30MKI, else IAF would have asked for SU Flanker family to be included in the MRCA competition...
SU30MKI will form the flagship of the IAF and MRCA as the second in command (flagshipwise)

Su-30 mki is from flanker family su-35 so no need for IAF to even consider it for MRCA.
and if you are going to make such statements like F-18 is not in the same league as mki then please elaborate!

 

[EagleEyes]

I have said many atimes before---listen to what the americans are saying to you about your abilities and their capabilities---but be wary of what they are not telling you about what they can do and the things you don't know about---in other words---be ready---you will be sucker punched.

PAF utilizes its own tactics and training by itself with the influence of U.S. training and various other country's contribution, as well as what is learned from the exercises. That being said PAF knows what to do.

Where we get suckered punched is at the procurement stage due to the political situation. Now the story is all about costs and dividing the money over the air force's hemisphere.

 

[z9-ec]

Thirdly, comparing the JF 17's abilities equal to those of su 30 is a wishfull thinking---it is a bad assesment and the bad assesment is being made worse. Su 30 has been flying in combat role for awhile now---even though the SU is a very expensive platform to operate, it is a deadly deadly air superioity aircraft---no ifs and buts about it---. JF 17 is yet to grow up---we haven't even seen its teething problems. It is still a baby---it will grow up in a year or so---we will start learning what it can do and what it cannot do---remember the F 16---the designers had only the clues as to how far their imaginations could go---the F 16 performed beyond their wildest of dreams---so, it will take 2 to 3 years before the true JF 17 emerges ( the performance capabilities ).

That is exactly what I meant to say. Plans are underway to make JF-17 more capable and advanced craft in the future to meet PAF requirements as PAF ACM mentioned in his press conference/interview recently.

 

[EagleEyes]

There is a limitation to how much you can upgrade ie limitation of radar relative to nose size etc. That said J17 has the potential to be a decent point defence fighter.

Also one has to understand that you are alone not moving or evolving in the world, the rest also do it, Su will be constantly upgraded, with first upgradation starting around 2009-2010

Firstly, its not J17 rather the JF-17. Secondly, there will be no upgrade rather than equipment. Thirdly, there are no limitations of how much you can upgrade as long as air frame is good.

JF-17 Thunder will be the best aircraft in its category equipped with probably AESA and MBDA missiles.. mica.. meteor are on the cards.

 

[indiapakistanfriendship]

Firstly, its not J17 rather the JF-17. Secondly, there will be no upgrade rather than equipment. Thirdly, there are no limitations of how much you can upgrade as long as air frame is good.

My my that was a mistake ,, thanx for pointing out
I was comparing it with Su 30 in terms of upgrades . Yes the size of the plane and its nose does matter when installing radar, its powerful computer and cooling solutions and other paraphanelia.

JF-17 Thunder will be the best aircraft in its category equipped with probably AESA and MBDA missiles.. mica.. meteor are on the cards

In case you are talking about France I don't see AESA coming soon nor do I see them delivering the AESA when it is developed, however I am sure that PESA currently serving in Rafale is a good radar and will definitely be on offer, that said I dont see that happening in case India goes for Rfale

 

[Myth_buster_1]

currently the only advantage JF-17 will have over MKI is its verity of advance air-air missiles.. MICA, Aim-120 C5 SD-10 with the help of vast quantity of AWAC support will give hard tough time to any indian fighters.
unless india opts for FA-18s they might then get a chance of getting more advance missiles like Aim-120 C7 and Aim-9x.