Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[gambit]

Arsalan,

what's the point of buying an AEW&C/AWACS if your planes are not data-linked to it?

The main point of having an AWACS platform is about early detection and 'early' equals to distance. Keep in mind that radar detection is about detecting a target as far away from you as possible, and that applies to civilian usage of radar as well. A busy civilian airport would benefit from early detection of inbounds as it would help controllers better scheduling take-offs and landings. For the military, early detection equals to keeping the enemy or potential enemy and his weapons from you and your valuables as long as possible. Military controllers would do the opposite of their civilian counterparts, vector defending forces towards (hostile) inbounds instead of guiding the inbounds in.

In the early days of AWACS operations, it was with voice commands, not through data linking, although some rudimentary data transmissions did occurred, that AWACS controllers send in defending forces. Data links along with voice commands adds complexity, technical and operational, that can degrade an air force if the capability is not properly exploited through training -- extensive training -- that require flight hours and aviation fuel, for both the AWACS and everyone else that have a need for what the AWACS has to offer. Data links is the proverbial gravy, not the meat, of an AWACS platform. If the Pakistani Air Force cannot afford such training for this level of an AWACS, then do not spend the money. Train as best as possible with voice commands like how the US military did.

 

[Patriot]

Hi,
JF-17 will be datalinked.Muradk confirmed it i think.

 

[mean_bird]

gambit,

The advantages of having a data-link is much more than simply vocal commands. You get to share real time information...you are aware of the whole war scenario...the complete overview... in front of you rather than being told by someone by voice about individual planes.

Just as an example, look at what happened at Red Flag. The US, french, etc were all data-linked to the awacs while the indians were not...and they ended up having to call the AWACS to ask " 24miles northwest, friend or foe?" each time. And as a result they ended up either holding their fires or having friendly kills. And that is just one example. Look up that briefing by USAF officer on Red Flag on youtube.

As Saadahamed said, Muradk has said the JF-17 will be data-linked. Other forumers have also claimed that to be the case and it is even written on the PAC kamra website..you can read it yourself.

JF-17 will also have 2 secure, and independent, communication links as well.

 

[Gucci Juice]

ok, here's my take

the mki has an advantage over the jf-17 in radar, ew systems, avionics, tvc, faster speed, more range, more firepower, and the user a/f has 10 years experience with it. the only disadvantages i can think of are high maintenence and big rcs.

 

[nik007]

I think pitting a jf17 against an mki would be suicide. I have many articles which say that only a Eurofighter or f22 can face this "menace".

An australian website said that even an JSF F35 cannot match it.

My reccomendation for PAF would be Eurofighter, J10B/JXX. and SAMS

Unfortunately the chinese dont have aerial warfare experiance so we will have to see....

 

[gambit]

gambit,

The advantages of having a data-link is much more than simply vocal commands. You get to share real time information...you are aware of the whole war scenario...the complete overview... in front of you rather than being told by someone by voice about individual planes.

Just as an example, look at what happened at Red Flag. The US, french, etc were all data-linked to the awacs while the indians were not...and they ended up having to call the AWACS to ask " 24miles northwest, friend or foe?" each time. And as a result they ended up either holding their fires or having friendly kills. And that is just one example. Look up that briefing by USAF officer on Red Flag on youtube.

As Saadahamed said, Muradk has said the JF-17 will be data-linked. Other forumers have also claimed that to be the case and it is even written on the PAC kamra website..you can read it yourself.

JF-17 will also have 2 secure, and independent, communication links as well.

Let me first put it this way...

A manual transmission have about 20-30 moving parts and require much inputs from the user. An automagic transmission have ten times the amount of moving parts and most of the time, an automagic transmission user is idle and blissfully unaware of the operations that motivate his automobile.

Data links are not voice commands but voice commands convey or at least imply certain data. If this venture into AWACS is the first for the Pakistani Air Force, the leadership would be wise in training his pilots the basics of coordinated tactics from an airborne controller before treading into automated data links territory. Information overload can be just as dangerous as lack of information.

In no way am I donwplaying the usefulness of data links but real time information does not always translate to better decisions. Real time data links can give a flight of fighters information about their positions in relation to the targets or even 'friend or foe' status but keep in mind that the AWACS operator possesses ten times the amount of information his radar produces while due to physical limitations, a fighter pilot is limited to what his radar can give him, which usually is about 120-140 deg of sweep. Someone has to make the final decision regarding target approach and that decision cannot be delegated to multiple recipients else there would be absolute chaos in the sky and the enemy escape in the confusion.

For example...A four-ship formation that are data linked to each other still require a coordinator, or a final decision maker, from among them regarding target engagement, such as approach altitude and angle, to maximize the surprise factor. If, in trying to hide their numbers, only one of them is transmitting his radar and sharing his radar information to his companions, someone still has to make the final decision as to when all of them will transmit and at which target, if there are multiple hostiles. Your mistake lies in conflating information and decision making.

You speak of Red Flag? I have been to a couple of Red Flag exercises in supporting my fighters on the ground. I know what teamwork involves, on the ground and in the air. Like the automagic transmission example, every individual part must know its role and function in the assembly and in actuality, the more information is available to the individuals the less flexibility each individual has because now he is more aware of potential for disastrous consequences should his 'lone wolf' attitude and initiatives failed. Data links works precisely because of the extensive trainings involved and when it works, the operation is seemingly transparent and the successes are spectacular.

 

[mean_bird]

Did I or anyone said that voice commands will cease to exist once a fighter is data-linked?

The point I am making is simple: You better have data-links too than just voice commands and that happened in Red flag, which I quoted just for an example, where having a picture in front of you is better than having somebody telling you on the Radio.

As already mentioned, "JF-17 will also have 2 secure, and independent, communication links as well." So nobody is stopping the use of voice commands and all tactics involve communications. You never cease to talk to each other no matter what technology you have. Data-links are not there to take over command and control but to complement it by giving real time information.

Data links are not voice commands but voice commands convey or at least imply certain data. If this venture into AWACS is the first for the Pakistani Air Force, the leadership would be wise in training his pilots the basics of coordinated tactics from an airborne controller before treading into automated data links territory. Information overload can be just as dangerous as lack of information.

The AWACS deal comes with a complete training. And I do not agree you have to start with voice commands and go to data-links later. The two are not replacements of each other but act in harmony to complement each other. You need to train your personnel with all the technology you have.

A Saab erieye is already in pakistan where training is going on even before we receive our first erieye sometime later this year.

 

[hocuspocush]

IAF aiming to be Net-Centric by 2010-11

Hi Members,

I have been following this thread from the beginning and would like to mention a new system of warfare which will evolve in 21st century warfare in South Asia.

India will get its first 'eye in the sky', the Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS), aircraft on May 18.
.....
.....
"The other two aircraft would be delivered by Mid or late 2010, if everything goes on schedule,"
....
....
India and Israel are reported to be in advanced negotiations for the purchase of three more Phalcon AWACS, which the IAF proposes to integrate with other air and ground assets.

All the six AWACS would be linked with the country's first military satellite proposed to be launched by mid next year.

Refer article:
Unable to publish due to less than 15 posts.

"The AWACS, a major force multiplier for the Air Force, is also an important link in the IAF's plans to go network centric by establishing an advanced Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) through the Air Force Net (AFNET) communication network.


Under the AFNET project, the IAF has already linked about 70 per cent of its land-based assets and platforms to the IACCS, the officer said."

Refer article:
Unable to publish due to less than 15 posts.

"India is building up a satellite-based Military Surveillance and Reconnaissance System that will become operational by 2007, allowing it to keep watch on developments in its area. "

Refer article:
Unable to publish due to less than 15 posts.


"Giving a big boost to its defence surveillance capabilities, India today successfully launched an all-weather Israeli-built spy satellite that will help security agencies keep a vigil on the country's borders."

Refer article:
Unable to publish due to less than 15 posts.


Point in case:
Any country going into a war or a war like situation would like to use all available information at its disposal to gain the maximum advantage in the event of first strike.

With India integrating it's AFNET to have a One point Command and Control center where all information would be available and thus make a strategic decision for the objective.

However, I am sure the Pakistan Defence Forces will be aware of this and might be taking appropriate steps to counter such huge advantages such as Saab2000 but I still doubt the huge advantageous position of satellite imaging system which can precisely indicate the enemy position be is Army, Navy or Air Force.

PS: I have all the links from where I have taken these excerpts. In case anybody who wishes to read these articles, please PM me or wait till I get 15 posts in this forum

 

[Arsalan]

I think pitting a jf17 against an mki would be suicide. I have many articles which say that only a Eurofighter or f22 can face this "menace".

An australian website said that even an JSF F35 cannot match it.

My reccomendation for PAF would be Eurofighter, J10B/JXX. and SAMS

Unfortunately the chinese dont have aerial warfare experiance so we will have to see....

well dude isnt it way too patriotic!!



let us be a bit more realistic man!!

 

[mean_bird]

I think pitting a jf17 against an mki would be suicide.

Pitting a Mig-21bison wasn't a suicide according to an experienced F-15 fighter flying with an AESA radar, but hey....that was an Indian 'indigenous" super-fighter against an ordinary F-15 with stupid US pilots and a less capable AESA radar.

Here we are talking about useless 3rd generation "souped-up Mig-21" built be the incompetent Chinese against the World class Indian pilots flying the invincible Su-30MKI with a superior PESA radars.

I have many articles which say that only a Eurofighter or f22 can face this "menace".

An australian website said that even an JSF F35 cannot match it.

The australians are very angry with you because you didnt quote the one thing why the article was written...Australia should go for the F-22 if it needs to survive.

My reccomendation for PAF would be Eurofighter, J10B/JXX. and SAMS

Unfortunately the chinese dont have aerial warfare experiance so we will have to see....

PAF appreciates highly of your recommendations for such wisely insights. It also requests a check of a few billion $ to buy those and a blueprint for the JXX so it can build it. PAF also likes to inform you of something called "postdiction" where you recommend something that has already happened, in this case PAF going for the J10B and the SAMs.

[/end sarcasm]

 

[Hasnain2009]

JSF F35 cannot match MKI.

Is there any Indian who supports his claim?

 

[Jako]

Is there any Indian who supports his claim?

nope......i had a gr8 laugh anyways.......but yeah,the mki is a beast,and the best in the subcontinent and beyond.....

 

[nik007]

well dude isnt it way too patriotic!!



let us be a bit more realistic man!!

What I told u was the truth. I actually read those articles. Do u want to see them?

Here we are talking about useless 3rd generation "souped-up Mig-21" built be the incompetent Chinese against the World class Indian pilots flying the invincible Su-30MKI with a superior PESA radars.

I never said anything of that sort. I just repeated what I read. But believe what u want.

PAF appreciates highly of your recommendations for such wisely insights. It also requests a check of a few billion $ to buy those and a blueprint for the JXX so it can build it. PAF also likes to inform you of something called "postdiction" where you recommend something that has already happened, in this case PAF going for the J10B and the SAMs.

Thanks a lot. When do I get my payment?

Is there any Indian who supports his claim?

SU30 vs F35?
Its rit here.
Sukhoi Flankers - The Shifting Balance of Regional Air Power

But I have been pointed out that it is Australian propaganda. Although I dont fully agree

 

[mean_bird]

just for fun

 

[tutu]

pitting a jf17 against an mki in a war ...........joke !

jf-17 will only be pitting against LCA in future export competitions ...