Su 30 and Su 35 can win hands down with F-35 in WVR and Dogfight

[danger007]

Few days ago there is another thread like this.... funny comparing 4th gen JET with 5th gen... even it has draw backs in performance.... man it is a fifth gen jet.... a generation ahead of every thing what it is in 4th gen...

 

[armchairPrivate]

I woke up, and this! Another dick measuring contest.

The fact is SU35 F22 and F35 have not been not battle tested(not sure about SU30). All this specs look good on paper. So these birds have flown under control, flavourable conditions, so what? Until we have seen the knock fights, all these back and forth are just empty talks.

 

[gambit]

Read the following two given link. Just for fanboys like you.

I am a fanboy. No shame about it. I also have nearly 19 yrs in aviation, in and out of the military. Definitely no shame about that. How about you?

The vid you posted is old news. Has been posted and discussed here before. Basically, it means that in order to defeat US, overwhelming numerical superiority is the only way.

Here is the hard truth about infrared detection...

These are the vital target resolutions that everyone prefers presented to them by their sensors...

- Location or general direction
- Altitude
- Airspeed
- Heading
- Aspect angle

Of all the current sensor technologies available to us today, only one can provide us with ALL five: Radar.

Here is infrared detection...

- Location or general direction

That is it...!!!

Even worse, when the sales brochures give that maximum IR detection distance of 100 km, it is of the most favorable tactical condition: Tail chase interception.

Yes, the tail chase is technically an interception scheme.

In a tail chase situation, you are in complete control of distance between you and the target -- airspeed. As long as you are silent, meaning not even voice transmissions, let alone active radar, your opponent have no clue you are behind him. Control your airspeed and you control your approach distance, which allows you time to set up the most favorable IR missile solution. Your opponent's IR emissions are intense and concentrated -- engine exhausts.

Whereas in a head on interception, you are not in control of your approach distance, which is getting rapidly shorter. Your opponent's IR emission intensity -- leading edge friction -- are at least a couple orders of magnitudes inferior and they are not concentrated. In this situation, both of you are most likely in direct radar views of each other. So why would anyone want to use the inferior sensor that will give him only general direction of his opponent? Why not go active with the sensor that will give you all five -- radar?

Think thrice before you attempt to use 'fanboy' as an insult against me.

I woke up, and this! Another dick measuring contest.

The fact is SU35 F22 and F35 have not been not battle tested(not sure about SU30). All this specs look good on paper. So these birds have flown under control, flavourable conditions, so what? Until we have seen the knock fights, all these back and forth are just empty talks.

If you do not have any, at least enjoy the show...

 

[armchairPrivate]

I know you have a big one, flashing it around everywhere. Good on you.

 

[Esc8781]

Skip to 2:15.

 

[gambit]

I know you have a big one, flashing it around everywhere. Good on you.

Fracking huge, buddy...

Tumescent, turgid, throbbing, and angry...

 

[theone-neo]

1. Will you please help me by putting the source from where you had draw the above conclusion of 6:1 in JSF favour in dogfight.

2. Don't bring F-22 in the picture. F-22 is 20 times more stealthy than F-35 from the front and more than 100 times from the sideways. Read about complete design of F-35.

3. For your last paragraph, I would really want to know, who the hell know about F-35 that you have mentioned there.

4. What do you exactly mean by F-15SE is more than a match for Sukhoi and How?

5. Source for America told Israelis and all about those fantasies.

6. Source about USAF which states that JSF is 400% effective against Su family.

dude bang on target.... here some guys say what ever they want without any source...

 

[SQ8]

This is how the Su-35 defeats the F-35..
It takes of with half the fuel load(since with a full load it will turn like a bull).. and makes sure all it has are IRMs..
then it finds a mountain.. a large one to be safe.. and keeps circling behind it..hoping that the F-35 crosses over and it can launch and ambush.

Any other scenario...involved assuming everything works perfectly for the Su-35 and nothing works at all for the F-35..
such arguments are known as fanboy posts.

 

[FireFistAce]

Care to explain..how will SU30/ 35 manage to get in to WVR to F35?

The warrior era is over for centuries. Sir we are living in 21st century and killing at distance is the way of winning wars.

That's exactly what US thought in the Vietnam war.

 

[SatishChandra07]

this is just like saying sword defeats ak-47 in close quarters

 

[SQ8]

That's exactly what US thought in the Vietnam war.

The Vietnam air-war had a lot more to it than just migs getting in.
Restricted RoE's.. over-reliance on a technology that was yet to mature(missiles) etc.

In Vietnam..the US was faced with technology warfare it had not yet fully developed.

In the next war, when it did have the technology developed.. and the RoE's were more co-ordinated and developed.. against an enemy that was technically better equipped than then the viets.. they dominated..
This conflict was the gulf war.. it too had migs trying to go toe to toe with US aircraft.. except they were blown out of the sky.

The next conflict.. the US was again under extreme RoE (Allied Force).. they suffered the same problems as they did in Vietnam..although they fared comparatively better.

The problem is, if the F-35 is going to get killed.. it is going to get killed because it did not have the orders to shoot or had to be forced to go into Visual combat from a disadvantageous position due to RoE.. and if the US commanders allow the enemy a safe haven to regenerate.

On a plane to plane basis..as much as pseudo-intellectuals/disgruntled entrepreneurs like Kopp would like everybody to think... the F-35 has far more ways to kill a Su-35 without it even knowing what happened as compared to anything else..

The same goes for the Su-30/35.. if a Su-30 returning from a long range strike is ambushed over enemy territory by a mig-21.. low on fuel and surprised.. it could very well be that an experienced su-30 pilot is brought down by a relatively inexperienced mig-21 driver.
This has been demonstrated time and time again that the advantage a loss of SA and favorable conditions will bring down the best of aircraft and pilots.

 

[shree835]

So now you want to eliminite the possibility of a 1:1 and want to speak on real world scenarios, in which the F-35 has been flying for 5-7 years where as PAKFA/FGFA has only very recently gone for flight testing . Anyway, to start off, you need to have a look at Air Power Australia's & RAND corporation assumptions and expert opinions on the video you have posted. On the contrary, USAF conducted simulations which resulted in proving that the F-35's air-to-air performance against SU family was 400% more effective!!

In other simulations and worst case scenarios of 4 JSF's against 8 SU-35's, the ratio was 6:1 in favour of the JSF!!! And those simulations were conducted by those who know the capabilities of JSF!

I had read an article about the pilots flying F-15's and F-16's in training exercises against the F-22......one of the pilots stated that he could visually identify the F-22 and yet his radar could not find it hence no missile lock, that's what stealth does!!

The US has also assured Israelis that the Saudi F-15SE would be no match for the JSF's that they will get! That about sums it all up as Israelis are not stupid and we know that F-15SE is more then a match for any Sukhoi!



You are speaking about simulated exercise conducted by those who are just as informed on the JSF as us, right?? Should we rather not speak about simulations conducted by those who actually know the JSF and know what they are talking about?

Source Please.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

The Boresight: Airborne Infrared and Supersonic Stealth

PLEASE READ THIS LINK, MY INTENTION IS NOT TO SAY THAT WHAT IS BEING SAID THERE IS TRUE(that SU35 or any forth gen I
jet have a good chance against stealth jet ) BUT TO POINT OUT THAT WHEN STEALTH VS STEALTH COMES 'IRST' AND LASER RANGE FINDER COMBO OR OTHER PASSIVE DETECTION METHODS CAN GIVE FIRING SOLUTIONS AND WILL BE A DECIDING FACTOR.

 

[DARKY]

This is how the Su-35 defeats the F-35..
It takes of with half the fuel load(since with a full load it will turn like a bull).. and makes sure all it has are IRMs..
then it finds a mountain.. a large one to be safe.. and keeps circling behind it..hoping that the F-35 crosses over and it can launch and ambush.

Any other scenario...involved assuming everything works perfectly for the Su-35 and nothing works at all for the F-35..
such arguments are known as fanboy posts.

This is how F-35 beats Su-35S... It vectors towards Su35S in clean configuration carrying 4 AMRAAM... A2A load in weapon bays and somehow happens to fly only straight.. hoping Su-35 not using Ibris-E to full power and there is no data-link with other Su-35S aircrafts in vicinity(since one F-35 cannot fly in a straight line towards more than one Su35S)... at high altitude.

Keeping in mind the condition that All the Jammers and ECM+ECCM on Su35S are not working or somehow failed the Aim120D scores a perfect hit... and rest of the other Su35S pilots applaud F-35 for doing such a wonderful task and let it go unharmed.

We are not considering any AWACS presence or any SAM presence against F-35.

 

[SQ8]

This is how F-35 beats Su-35S... It vectors towards Su35S in clean configuration carrying 4 AMRAAM... A2A load in weapon bays and somehow happens to fly only straight.. hoping Su-35 not using Ibris-E to full power and there is no data-link with other Su-35S aircrafts in vicinity(since one F-35 cannot fly in a straight line towards more than one Su35S)... at high altitude.

Keeping in mind the condition that All the Jammers and ECM+ECCM on Su35S are not working or somehow failed the Aim120D scores a perfect hit... and rest of the other Su35S pilots applaud F-35 for doing such a wonderful task and let it go unharmed.

We are not considering any AWACS presence or any SAM presence against F-35.

@gambit

we have another one.

Ibris-E radar to high power, Shields to maximum.. warp drive(TVC) to full. Photon Torpedoes(R-77) to ready..
lets break the laws of electromagnetism and kill the F-35.