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Study: Germans see Islam as a threat

Most Muslims in the West are not native born, be reasonable - most Muslims in the West do not share Western values, do not value Western civilization and are closely connected with their home countries - that is to say we are connected, we are all connected, not just in affinity but attitudes with home countries --

BTW, I am impressed with the "Glocal" strategy of these folks.

Think global, act local.

Practiced better than any MNC could.

They would make the strategists of the largest MNC proud. ;)
 
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BTW, I am impressed with the "Glocal" strategy of these folks.

Think global, act local.

Practiced better than any MNC could.

They would make the strategists of the largest MNC proud. ;)

See Develepero makes a strong point - however the reality is that most Muslims in the West identify not with the West but with those who would destroy it -- and this is because of their strong connections with their home countries ideas and attitudes - we are all connected and we are all effected.
 
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See Develepero makes a strong point - however the reality is that most Muslims in the West identify not with the West but with those who would destroy it -- and this is because of their strong connections with their home countries ideas and attitudes - we are all connected and we are all effected.

You guys are having a tremendous debate and I am quite enjoying it.

No need to say which side I happen to agree with in this instance but good to understand the different sides.

That is the one take away from such places when all is said and done.

Of course, the glocal strategy that Developero is advocating here, seems to be self serving to me (and to you, it would seem), may be even too clever by half.

Yet that is how a very large number of people see it and that makes it real.
 
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By not condemning unfair vilification, we are endorsing it. By not fighting it, we are acquiesing to it.



As noted several times, we accept the wrong that Muslims are doing and, in fact, the greatest harm is to ourselves. However, we must differentiate between legitimate criticism and unfair demonization. We must demand the criticisms should be valid and measured. I already gave the comparison of Muslim migrant groups with earlier, and other, migrant groups in the West. The singling out of Muslim migrants is grossly unfair.

Like I wrote, there is absolutely no justification for a 12 year old Muslim schoolgirl to be taunted for wearing a headscarf, or a Muslim graduate looking for his first job to face discrimination just because some lunatic 1000 miles away is peddling Sharia, or another lunatic 5000 miles away is bombing people. These are not melodramatic scenarios: there have been studies by Western organizations showing that applicants with Muslim names face discrimination in European countries. Harassment of Muslim women rises up every time the global media goes on one of its Islamophobic binges.

If we don't fight our own demonization, who will?

In my opinion and from as far as I have read in the thread....

I would like to share a little story from a few years back, At a work related short course at Uni in Auckland, as in, we all were working people from the same large company and not students. I met a Pakistani gentleman he was about middle age. The first thing he talked to me about: pointing at other female co-employees he said how scantily they were dressed. Then he proceeded on to declare that as a Muslim he will not allow his daughters to dress like that.
I asked how old his daughters were, he answered in their late teens and about to start uni.
Then asked how he would expect his daughters to dress at uni, the reply was to cover their legs... his daughters wear jeans he told me. And they cover their cleavage he implied. (I guess a t-shirt would suffice) all this he proudly declared because he was Muslim.

I said to him at least it is great your daughters get to go to school and uni what about the poor girls in Afghanistan(this was during Taliban) they get to cover up but not go to school I said.

He quickly replied "but they are not Muslim"
I asked who gets to decide who is Muslim?

That's where the conversation ended.

The point is he gets to lump all Muslims together whenever he wants.

How he expected his daughter to dress was nothing with him being a Muslim. It was because he was a south Asian and from a family that was brought up with a unique set of values.

He found out that I was Indian due to my name and chose to bring this subject up because he presumed I had the same set of values(I do, I have a level of family pride and family guidelines on behaviour and modesty for both males and females and the right to study and live in a free land) forgetting I was Hindu.

Once you remove the religious glasses then you will start seeing the world for what it is.(That Pakistani chap I hope someday he also removed his religious glasses)
 
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Germans should be scared of the high water prices there paying
 
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To bolster the point @Developereo makes about the media influence -- See below, Aijaz makes the case that we may look at the behavior of the reigning super power as explanation of Muslim rage -- and then we can explore how it is that this rage seems confined to Muslims :


Dubai eye...What’s faith got to do with it?
Aijaz Zaka Syed
Saturday, May 04, 2013


The truth that makes men free is often the truth that men prefer not to hear, said a sage. The initial shock over the two Chechen brothers’ apparent involvement in the Boston bombing has been followed by an endless hysteria in the United States with politicians and all sorts of terrorism experts and media wonks, rushing to blame the usual suspects and the ‘ideology’ that inspired the attack.

Neocon pundit Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch, who has made a career out of Muslim bashing, has triumphantly declared Islam as the ‘real problem’. In a piece titled ‘Excusing Jihad in Boston,’ he blasts the US media for “underplaying the religious angle” in the attack, claiming the Quran exhorts Muslims to use the “steeds of war to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies.”

Bruce Bawer of FrontPage has declared an open war on Islam and its followers saying, “All we need to know is that the attackers were jihadists, and therefore our enemy”, Think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute are pitching the same line to claim the land of the free is under attack from ‘Islamic terrorists’ because of its glorious democracy and freedom.

And it’s not just a right-wing fringe that seems to think so. The liberal ‘world-is-flat’ pundit Thomas Friedman of The New York Times slams “radical Muslim groups and their apologists” for daring to suggest that Boston may have been a response to the continuing US wars.

Indeed, Friedman goes a step further: “We surely mustn’t tar all of Islam in this. But we must ask a question only Muslims can answer: What’s going on in your community that a critical number of your youth believes every American military action in the Middle East is intolerable and justifies a violent response, and everything Muslim extremists do to other Muslims is ignorable and calls for mostly silence?”

In other words, the ‘problem’ lies with Islam and its followers. Another liberal Andrew Sullivan of the Daily Beast had this to say: “All religions contain elements of this kind of fanaticism. But Islam’s fanatical side from the Taliban to the Tsarnaevs is more murderous than most.”

Can there be a bigger lie than this? Of course, there is no excuse or justification – by any stretch – for murder and mayhem targeting innocent people. This is something Islamic scholars, intellectuals and even ordinary people have repeatedly stressed and are totally united on. Despicable actions like the one that targeted the Boston marathon go against the fundamental teachings and spirit of the faith that strictly forbids strife and killing innocent civilians even during wars. But then these actions had nothing to do with Islam.

The issue is not with Islam or the bloodlust of its followers. The problem is with the reigning superpower and its unquenchable thirst for global power and total supremacy. The motives of the brothers Tsarnaev were not religious but political, as has been the case with numerous other such attacks in the past.

In a courageous piece in the Guardian, American journalist and author Glenn Greenwald argues that his country is living in denial about the roots of terror by portraying Islam as a militant religion, while ignoring the horrific violence and destruction the United States has unleashed on the Muslim world. Greenwald cites the last four attempted or successful attacks on US soil to support his argument:

• Attempted ‘underwear bomber’ Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, upon pleading guilty, said that he had planned to “attack the US in retaliation for US support of Israel and for the killing of innocent Muslims in Palestine, Yemen, Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan and beyond.”

• Attempted Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad, a middle-class naturalised American, said he was motivated by “US policies in the Muslim world.” When the presiding judge quizzed him how he could have killed innocent children, he replied: “Well, the drone hits in Afghanistan and Iraq, they don’t see children, they don’t see anybody. They kill women, children, they kill everybody. It’s a war, and in war, they kill people. They’re killing all Muslims. I am part of the answer to the US terrorising the Muslim nations and people. Americans only care about their own people; they don’t care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die.”

• Attempted New York subway bomber Najibullah Zazi, first Afghan American involved in such a plot, told the judge that he did so “because of what the US was doing in Afghanistan.”

• Major Nidal Hasan, the military instructor who went on a rampage at Fort Hood killing several of his comrades in arms, said he did it because of his “deep anguish” over the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even the American Yemeni preacher, Anwar al-Awlaki, who apparently inspired both Abdulmutallab and Hasan, was once considered a ‘moderate imam.’ The Pentagon included him in post-9/11 community events and The Washington Post invited him to write a column. Al-Awlaki flipped after the attack on Iraq. He was killed in a drone strike in Yemen, the first American to be killed by his own government. His 16-year old, all-American son met the same fate two weeks later when he went to visit his father’s family in Yemen.

If these instances, indefensible as they are, do not amply prove that it’s not Islamic beliefs or teachings but unjust US-western policies and wars that are at the heart of terror and this explosive conflict, what will?

Yet the empire continues to live, as all empires do, in denial – blaming everyone and everything else but its own hubris. Indeed, the more anger and frustration the US policies and actions provoke around the world the deeper America seems to stick its head in the sand. It not only refuses to confront the roots of this corrosive rage, it’s actually adding fuel to the fire.

Many of us hoped things would change under President Barack Hussein Obama because of his background and lofty promises. How wrong we all were! Look at the endless genuflection fest that was Obama’s recent visit to Israel. Someone who passionately talked of the Palestinians’ right to their homeland in Cairo in 2009 now lectures the occupied to be more ‘realistic’ and continue talking peace with Israel even as the last remaining piece of their land is gobbled up by Israeli settlements. It’s this hypocrisy and abject American surrender to Israel that feeds Muslim angst.

This president is bending over backwards to prove he’s not a closet Muslim or ‘socialist Muslim,’ as he joked this week. Jeremy Scahill’s book, Dirty Wars: The World is a Battlefield, released last week just before the movie by the same name, paints a frightening picture of the US militarism under Obama that kills at will and makes no distinction between terrorists and innocent bystanders.

Yet the Americans are outraged when faced with a backlash. In Greenwald’s words, they seem to think “we can invade, bomb, drone, kill, occupy, and tyrannise whomever we want, and that they will never respond. If you believe militarism and aggression are justified, then fine. But don’t walk around acting surprised when violence is brought to US soil. It’s the inevitable outcome of these choices, and that’s not because Islam is some sort of bizarre or intrinsically violent religion.”

Will this cycle of violence and cause-and-effect ever end? The answer lies in the question itself. Blaming Boston on Islam will not help America tackle the spectre of terror; confronting the truth and roots of this conflict will.
 
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Most Muslims in the West are not native born, be reasonable - most Muslims in the West do not share Western values, do not value Western civilization and are closely connected with their home countries - that is to say we are connected, we are all connected, not just in affinity but attitudes with home countries --

Again, you are sidestepping the basic point that rights are not calibrated to ethnicity or religion.

I won't get into the debate about what 'most Muslims in the West' are about since it is irrelevant where they are born. The law is not concerned with these things -- the only thing that matters is what people do. As long as people are abiding by the law, it is no one's concern where they are born or what set of values they allegedly espouse.

As for identifying with global Muslim causes, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you stay within the law. Jewish groups are highly organized to save global Jewry in far flung corners and facilitate their migration to the West or Israel. Christian advocacy groups exist in all Western countries, with strong lobbies in some, and they work tirelessly to address the concerns of Christian minorities around the world. Hindu and Tamil advocacy groups do likewise in India.

To suggest that Muslims should not do likewise, all within the law, is ridiculous.
 
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I will be honest and i too feel Islam is a threat to world peace. In India itself all the terrorist activity are carried out by a Muslim group IM. Muslims generally are very narrow minded except in few countries. what is even scarier is that they are in majority in the world today and if they take over the control of the world then its not late when human life will come back to stone age.
There is a difference between muslims and lunatics,the problem is that they use islam to do their stupid insane actions.
Dont worry their are just a minority.
 
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To bolster the point @Developereo makes about the media influence -- See below, Aijaz makes the case that we may look at the behavior of the reigning super power as explanation of Muslim rage -- and then we can explore how it is that this rage seems confined to Muslims :


Dubai eye...What’s faith got to do with it?
Aijaz Zaka Syed
Saturday, May 04, 2013


The truth that makes men free is often the truth that men prefer not to hear, said a sage. The initial shock over the two Chechen brothers’ apparent involvement in the Boston bombing has been followed by an endless hysteria in the United States with politicians and all sorts of terrorism experts and media wonks, rushing to blame the usual suspects and the ‘ideology’ that inspired the attack.

Neocon pundit Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch, who has made a career out of Muslim bashing, has triumphantly declared Islam as the ‘real problem’. In a piece titled ‘Excusing Jihad in Boston,’ he blasts the US media for “underplaying the religious angle” in the attack, claiming the Quran exhorts Muslims to use the “steeds of war to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies.”

Bruce Bawer of FrontPage has declared an open war on Islam and its followers saying, “All we need to know is that the attackers were jihadists, and therefore our enemy”, Think tanks such as the American Enterprise Institute are pitching the same line to claim the land of the free is under attack from ‘Islamic terrorists’ because of its glorious democracy and freedom.

And it’s not just a right-wing fringe that seems to think so. The liberal ‘world-is-flat’ pundit Thomas Friedman of The New York Times slams “radical Muslim groups and their apologists” for daring to suggest that Boston may have been a response to the continuing US wars.

Indeed, Friedman goes a step further: “We surely mustn’t tar all of Islam in this. But we must ask a question only Muslims can answer: What’s going on in your community that a critical number of your youth believes every American military action in the Middle East is intolerable and justifies a violent response, and everything Muslim extremists do to other Muslims is ignorable and calls for mostly silence?”

In other words, the ‘problem’ lies with Islam and its followers. Another liberal Andrew Sullivan of the Daily Beast had this to say: “All religions contain elements of this kind of fanaticism. But Islam’s fanatical side from the Taliban to the Tsarnaevs is more murderous than most.”

Can there be a bigger lie than this? Of course, there is no excuse or justification – by any stretch – for murder and mayhem targeting innocent people. This is something Islamic scholars, intellectuals and even ordinary people have repeatedly stressed and are totally united on. Despicable actions like the one that targeted the Boston marathon go against the fundamental teachings and spirit of the faith that strictly forbids strife and killing innocent civilians even during wars. But then these actions had nothing to do with Islam.

The issue is not with Islam or the bloodlust of its followers. The problem is with the reigning superpower and its unquenchable thirst for global power and total supremacy. The motives of the brothers Tsarnaev were not religious but political, as has been the case with numerous other such attacks in the past.

In a courageous piece in the Guardian, American journalist and author Glenn Greenwald argues that his country is living in denial about the roots of terror by portraying Islam as a militant religion, while ignoring the horrific violence and destruction the United States has unleashed on the Muslim world. Greenwald cites the last four attempted or successful attacks on US soil to support his argument:

• Attempted ‘underwear bomber’ Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, upon pleading guilty, said that he had planned to “attack the US in retaliation for US support of Israel and for the killing of innocent Muslims in Palestine, Yemen, Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan and beyond.”

• Attempted Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad, a middle-class naturalised American, said he was motivated by “US policies in the Muslim world.” When the presiding judge quizzed him how he could have killed innocent children, he replied: “Well, the drone hits in Afghanistan and Iraq, they don’t see children, they don’t see anybody. They kill women, children, they kill everybody. It’s a war, and in war, they kill people. They’re killing all Muslims. I am part of the answer to the US terrorising the Muslim nations and people. Americans only care about their own people; they don’t care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die.”

• Attempted New York subway bomber Najibullah Zazi, first Afghan American involved in such a plot, told the judge that he did so “because of what the US was doing in Afghanistan.”

• Major Nidal Hasan, the military instructor who went on a rampage at Fort Hood killing several of his comrades in arms, said he did it because of his “deep anguish” over the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even the American Yemeni preacher, Anwar al-Awlaki, who apparently inspired both Abdulmutallab and Hasan, was once considered a ‘moderate imam.’ The Pentagon included him in post-9/11 community events and The Washington Post invited him to write a column. Al-Awlaki flipped after the attack on Iraq. He was killed in a drone strike in Yemen, the first American to be killed by his own government. His 16-year old, all-American son met the same fate two weeks later when he went to visit his father’s family in Yemen.

If these instances, indefensible as they are, do not amply prove that it’s not Islamic beliefs or teachings but unjust US-western policies and wars that are at the heart of terror and this explosive conflict, what will?

Yet the empire continues to live, as all empires do, in denial – blaming everyone and everything else but its own hubris. Indeed, the more anger and frustration the US policies and actions provoke around the world the deeper America seems to stick its head in the sand. It not only refuses to confront the roots of this corrosive rage, it’s actually adding fuel to the fire.

Many of us hoped things would change under President Barack Hussein Obama because of his background and lofty promises. How wrong we all were! Look at the endless genuflection fest that was Obama’s recent visit to Israel. Someone who passionately talked of the Palestinians’ right to their homeland in Cairo in 2009 now lectures the occupied to be more ‘realistic’ and continue talking peace with Israel even as the last remaining piece of their land is gobbled up by Israeli settlements. It’s this hypocrisy and abject American surrender to Israel that feeds Muslim angst.

This president is bending over backwards to prove he’s not a closet Muslim or ‘socialist Muslim,’ as he joked this week. Jeremy Scahill’s book, Dirty Wars: The World is a Battlefield, released last week just before the movie by the same name, paints a frightening picture of the US militarism under Obama that kills at will and makes no distinction between terrorists and innocent bystanders.

Yet the Americans are outraged when faced with a backlash. In Greenwald’s words, they seem to think “we can invade, bomb, drone, kill, occupy, and tyrannise whomever we want, and that they will never respond. If you believe militarism and aggression are justified, then fine. But don’t walk around acting surprised when violence is brought to US soil. It’s the inevitable outcome of these choices, and that’s not because Islam is some sort of bizarre or intrinsically violent religion.”

Will this cycle of violence and cause-and-effect ever end? The answer lies in the question itself. Blaming Boston on Islam will not help America tackle the spectre of terror; confronting the truth and roots of this conflict will.

Ok that was usa,what were the bali bombings for?Or the other violent terrorist attacks around the world?U have to acknowledge there is a major problem here.Coz no other members of a religious group is going around blowing civilians up in the name of god.
 
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Why do so many peole see Islam as a threat - all the "they hate us" stuff aside, where there's smoke...., so honestly why do so many in so many diverse places see Islam as a threat and Why do they not see it as a blessing?
Look inward for the answer to that. If enough people say some thing about you.....perhaps they are not all mistaken.
 
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Look inward for the answer to that. If enough people say some thing about you.....perhaps they are not all mistaken.

And what is that "something"? :undecided: Elaborate.

On topic : Now a days, Westerners enjoy bashing Islam/Muslims..no biggy. Wait a few more years, they'll find a new enemy...lol

Muslims in the West, and Americas etc are doing just fine.
 
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A remedy to this problem is two fold.

The west must STOP supporting extremist brigades to crush its opposition. Soviets in 80s, Libya and Syria today.

Secondly, muslims should stop glorifying these extremists.
 
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In a courageous piece in the Guardian, American journalist and author Glenn Greenwald argues that his country is living in denial about the roots of terror by portraying Islam as a militant religion, while ignoring the horrific violence and destruction the United States has unleashed on the Muslim world. Greenwald cites the last four attempted or successful attacks on US soil to support his argument:

• Attempted ‘underwear bomber’ Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, upon pleading guilty, said that he had planned to “attack the US in retaliation for US support of Israel and for the killing of innocent Muslims in Palestine, Yemen, Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan and beyond.”

• Attempted Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad, a middle-class naturalised American, said he was motivated by “US policies in the Muslim world.” When the presiding judge quizzed him how he could have killed innocent children, he replied: “Well, the drone hits in Afghanistan and Iraq, they don’t see children, they don’t see anybody. They kill women, children, they kill everybody. It’s a war, and in war, they kill people. They’re killing all Muslims. I am part of the answer to the US terrorising the Muslim nations and people. Americans only care about their own people; they don’t care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die.”

• Attempted New York subway bomber Najibullah Zazi, first Afghan American involved in such a plot, told the judge that he did so “because of what the US was doing in Afghanistan.”

• Major Nidal Hasan, the military instructor who went on a rampage at Fort Hood killing several of his comrades in arms, said he did it because of his “deep anguish” over the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Even the American Yemeni preacher, Anwar al-Awlaki, who apparently inspired both Abdulmutallab and Hasan, was once considered a ‘moderate imam.’ The Pentagon included him in post-9/11 community events and The Washington Post invited him to write a column. Al-Awlaki flipped after the attack on Iraq. He was killed in a drone strike in Yemen, the first American to be killed by his own government. His 16-year old, all-American son met the same fate two weeks later when he went to visit his father’s family in Yemen.

In all these cases, people turned on "their own countrymen" because of global Islamic issues.

People can sure draw very different conclusions from the same data.

Again, you are sidestepping the basic point that rights are not calibrated to ethnicity or religion.

I won't get into the debate about what 'most Muslims in the West' are about since it is irrelevant where they are born. The law is not concerned with these things -- the only thing that matters is what people do. As long as people are abiding by the law, it is no one's concern where they are born or what set of values they allegedly espouse.

As for identifying with global Muslim causes, there is nothing wrong with that, as long as you stay within the law. Jewish groups are highly organized to save global Jewry in far flung corners and facilitate their migration to the West or Israel. Christian advocacy groups exist in all Western countries, with strong lobbies in some, and they work tirelessly to address the concerns of Christian minorities around the world. Hindu and Tamil advocacy groups do likewise in India.

To suggest that Muslims should not do likewise, all within the law, is ridiculous.

The law doesn't operate in a vacuum.

It is based on certain premises and value systems.

When those premises and value systems are no longer applicable (or held in contempt by a section of the population), the laws built on those basis can and will change.

Patriot laws and various anti terror laws all over the world are examples where the much valued "individual liberty" had to give way to the new demands of security from the unscrupulous cowardly terrorists.

You are trying to create a layer of isolation here which you yourself don't accept for yourself, yet expect from others.

Cholbe na.

it is no one's concern where they are born or what set of values they allegedly espouse.

Simply doesn't work that way.

Anywhere. If the values being "allegedly espoused" are in conflict with the host society, there will be a reaction. The more the conflict, the greater the reaction.

One can't wish it away.
 
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stupidity at heights. muslims are being killed in their own country.

And yet they shaking in their boots scared of our facial hair while sat in their homes in newyork and frankfurt :lol:
 
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