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For the game to be played on the world stage, it needs to be played amongst themselves first.

Wherein lies the real challenge seeing the current situation in most countries of the Muslim world.

The world in general would be much easier. They want to accept a de-radicalized Islam. They cannot afford not to.
 
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Those who forget their history are condemned to repeat it.

It's one thing to remember history; it's quite another to hold an "open wound".

I knew this was coming. I preempted it already. Long back.

Refer to my post#388.

Our own infighting doesn't give a license to perpetrate genocides and rapine here

That's irrelevant. Nobody is excusing anything that happened centuries ago. We have all moved on. I suggest you do the same.
This ithe crucial part: you are still waiting for "the Islamic world" to apologize. You want Turkey to apologize? Saudi Arabia?

Basically, you are holding modern Muslims, including Indian Muslims, hostage until someone apologizes to close your "wound".

You can guess why Indians would do that. History as well as the terrorism coming from your country and the partition violence would be some of those reasons.

Exactly. So a majority of Indians still hold Muslims, including Indian Muslims, hostage to the partition saga.
You guys really need to move on.

The real question you should ask is why "Half or more of the Japanese, Chinese and South Koreans surveyed said they had negative impressions of Muslims".

Perhaps in a relevant thread. Not this one.

I am not anti-Muslim but I don't care when people like you apply this label. I have seen through it long back.

Only Islamophobes use words like infidel, kaffir, ummah, dhimmi, etc. Maybe you have been reading too much of their literature.

Yes, atrocities happened on both sides. In your case, it was total. Almost complete ethnic cleansing. In India's case, it was on a much smaller scale and the vast majority of Muslims remained in India and enjoyed full legal and constitutions rights.

Only because India has 8x the population -- if half a million people die on each side, it will be a smaller percentage within a bigger pool.

There are problems but not like what you would like to think based on very selected knowledge and interpretation that most of you display.

It was you who posted the poll numbers, not I.

I am sure you are taught that they left voluntarily and left their all behind in peace. Unlike the Palestinians?

Is that what they teach you guys in India? Most people know that it was a bloody partition. On both sides.

But it is you who is acting sanctimonious here!

Because Israel (and Sudan) are the only two countries currently creating refugee at this scale.

I don't feel the need to justify what Israel is doing. I am not doing that either.

If you had not called the relationship as anti-Islam, all this debate would be unnecessary.

The facts are coming as the debate is evolving.

No, the basic facts have been stated early on; they haven't changed.
Israel's Law of Return and its refusal to let non-Jewish refugees return is the crux of the accusation.

Be open to how the debate evolves rather than labeling me. Not that I care!

Anybody who uses words like infidel, kaffir, ummah and dhimmi will be labelled an Islamophobe. Anyone who holds today's Muslims hostage to an apology for whatever happened several centuries ago is just looking for an excuse to hate Muslims.

BTW, all those diversions were very much replies to the points you raised when you justified your insinuations. They were very much "on-topic" in that sense, just uncomfortable and therefore "Islamophobic".

No, that's the whole point. When we are discussing apartheid and someone wanders off into crimes by other black countries throughout history, it is a diversion.

You claim superior treatment of minorities by Pakistan and Islamic countries, don't you?

I am not speaking for other Islamic countries, although Morocco, Malaysia, etc. are quite multireligious and multiethnic.
And yes, in some ways, minorities are treated better in Pakistan than they are in the West, especially after 9/11. You will disagree, and I don't want to get into it, but I have lived in Pakistan and the West and I fully stand behind that statement.

Only you lower the standard significantly.

Ironic, coming from you.

Like you were satisfied in this very thread that "at least, minorities are not packed off to ghettos in Islamic countries"!

That is a statement of fact regarding Israel.

You suggested a closure by the Israelis for what they have done. When I suggested something similar for India, you accused me of "Islamophobia". Despite that there was far more brutality in India by the invaders.

Because I am talking about a current situation that is being perpetrated even as we speak. You are talking about what happened centuries ago. Most people in the subcontinent have moved on. By your logic, all mistreatment of Muslims around the world is justified until you receive your "apology" from some unnamed entity to close your "wound". It's an excuse for perpetually hating Muslims, and everyone can see through it.

BTW, I am not suggesting inaction. Darfur is the current one, there have been others earlier. I don't want to get into it unless challenged.

Yes, I know you are itching to launch into another one of your postgs about the evil Muslims.

Yes, would you still accuse China of aiding in that? Yes or No?

Of course. The whole world is crystal clear that Darfur should be resolved and the government held accountable.

I didn't see you condemning China. May be you can show me that post. Or the threads where you were as vociferous.

There haven't been any threads on Darfur that I know. I just brought it up just now.

Still, UN decided to create the country and many Arabs sought to oppose it by force.

They lost the civil war and military war and have to accept the consequences of forcing that war.

That's the part under debate. The whole thing was forced onto the Palestinians who had no say in the matter.
It was backroom dealings between the British, French, Americans and Zionists. The Arabs were never involved.

You agreed to it. With much joy. ;)

Nonsense. Why would I ever say that Israel can kick Pakistan's as$?
What I said was that Israel saved your as$ in Kargil.

you are an envious Pakistani.

Good one! I guess this is an improvement over 'Islamist' :)

Why shouldn't I dismiss all your concerns?

Because then you couldn't use this thread as a springboard to launch into irrelevant anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistan speeches.

They don't need India's help for dealing with civilians or even all the combined Arab armies!

Then why do you suppose they are forming this alliance with India? Are you saying the benefit is purely one way? That India contributes nothing to the 'alliance' other than money?
 
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If China has any restrictions in religion in Muslim, may be a requirement before the age of eighteen can not enter the mosque before, except for religious holidays.

I think you may have misread. I did not make that post. Some India guy did and asked my opinion.
But I appreciate the information. I know the Chinese are trying to resolve the matter peacefully.

For the Uighur culture, that really there is no limit, even the Chinese government to encourage development. But you say the Uighur culture has been affected, it may be true, but the impact of this culture from the modern life, you can be said to be under the influence of Western culture, but all Chinese people including the HAN are subject to its influence, it is inevitable. I can only hope that it will not be rendered into Chinese and HAN reasons, because our culture is also affected by impact, to simply blame the HAN or China, I think it is unfair.

I agree that all cultures are under assault from the global American culture. From what I have seen on TV, the Uighur are very traditional people and are very concerned about of all foreign culture, including American and Han.

For Israel, can only say that you and Palestine go to solve the problem, fast, and if you can solve, and you'll get more friends. Force is not sufficient to solve your problem, and you use too much force.

Israel has all the money, the weapons, and the internaltional connections. I am afraid a real solution is unlikely when you have such an imbalance of power. We are much more likely to get phony peace deal, signed by stooge politcians, which will not stand the test of time. And the situation afterwards will be worse than now.

That's just my pessimistic forecast. Hopefully, I wil be proved wrong.

By the way, if Pakistan can help China solve the problem of Uighur, as long as it does not violate the sovereignty of China, China will be very happy, I think that if there are ways to Pakistan, China is willing to provide tens of billions of dollars in checks to trade, without a hesitation .

China's Uighur problem to be solved, require significant investment in economic development, employment and culture, of course, diplomatic resources and more protective police force, it will far more than a few hundred billion dollars in the next few years. Even so, All takes time, not so simple to solve.

Yes, that is precisely the right approach. Give prosperity and jobs, so terrorists cannot hijack the issue. The Pakistani government is very useless when it comes to these matters, unfortunately. You are right that Pakistan can play a much more positive role there, if invited by China.
 
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I have already written about the barely-concealed religious polarization of the world between the Christian, the Islamic, and the others. I would like to develop on it further in light of the topic's Israeli connection, and India and Pakistan. And this oft-repeated ghazwa-al-hind prophecy and the apparent impact it has on the psyche of some. Is it a coincidence that of the tri-polar world mentioned above, the third pole, the others, are aligned more to the Christian world than to the Muslim one? Why does the Muslim world today find itself more and more isolated and marginalized the world over? When the world has seen as much violence from the Christians over centuries as it has from the Muslims? Not only that, why is the Muslim world itself at war with itself?

The answers to many of these questions will go a long way in explaining the world's silence and looking the other way if not outright condoning of Israel's actions in the decades long war with the Palestinians. Israel may or may not have (or continue to have) a strong moral ground to stand on. But the Palestinian people (and their champions - moderate and militant) in particular and the Muslim world as a loosely heterogeneous whole have by their actions and stands taken over the intervening period, equally or even less so. And here lies the crux of the issue. Palestine bears the cross of its muslim-hood from association, more than it reaps the fruits. I still maintain what I had to say in an earlier post.

The Muslim world needs to sit back, introspect, play smart, and take a leaf out of the Christian book. Appear to embrace inclusion-ism versus a uni-polar Islamic identity. Appear to don the garb of tolerance. Appear to embrace democratic ideals. Appear to accept the tenets and people of other religious faiths within your own milieu. Appear less fanatical and fundamental in your social, cultural, and political leanings. Stop coveting geographical and human occupation as seen through a black-or-white totalitarian lens. At least appear to tolerate and not interfere and allow, if not out-rightly homogenize. Don't ghettoize. Don the benign garb of the responsible and avuncular senior world religion that Christianity has. Lure the third pole into a warm cozy sense of well-being and non-threatening tolerant acceptance.

Play Christianity at its own game. You and the world would be the better for it. And maybe, by association and a happy offshoot, so would Palestine.

Another excellent post, thanks.

I agree that the Muslim world is ruled by emotion rather than logic or long term planning. That is one thing the Zionists are superb at. They planned the creation of Israel in the 19th century and worked methodically for its accomplishment for a century. Part of it is due to Jewish culture which is very good at promoting education, entrepreneurship and industry.

It is also true that perception matters more than reality. This, again, is where the Western media, mostly pro-Zionist, controls world opinion. Israel would be treated like Sudan, if the media were anti-Israel. Or, for a simpler example, look at the French ban on veils and headscarfs, or the Swiss ban on minarets. If a Muslim country had enacted such bans on Jewish symbols, it would be criticized around the world. But Europe's Islamophobia is celebrated by the Western media as a defence of cultural values.

So, in response to your post, I would say that a critical aspect of this battle is to weaken the absolute chokehold of the Zionists on the global media and counter it with a pro-Islamic or, at least, neutral media.
 
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In fact, China has been invited, such as China and Pakistan in combating terrorism. If you say Pakistan can provide more help, that depends on whether the method of Pakistan is a good way, China has its own judgments. China will allow Saudi Arabia to have his influence In specific areas, mainly HUI, so if that is really a good way to solve the problem but would not challenge the sovereignty of China. I think China will certainly take it, but I doubt that there is any way in the short term. China's approach may be long-term And require significant investment, but I think it may be the only way.
 
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For the game to be played on the world stage, it needs to be played amongst themselves first.

Wherein lies the real challenge seeing the current situation in most countries of the Muslim world.

The world in general would be much easier. They want to accept a de-radicalized Islam. They cannot afford not to.

I think the concept of a Muslim world is exaggerated, if not completely false.

Most ordinary Muslims see themselves through their ethnicity or nationalism first. Very few Muslims ascribe to this concept of a global Muslim world, although we do empathize with Muslims who are being oppressed just because of their religion.
 
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Most ordinary Muslims see themselves through their ethnicity or nationalism first. Very few Muslims ascribe to this concept of a global Muslim world, although we do empathize with Muslims who are being oppressed just because of their religion.

It might be just my experience on PDF, but the above statement is completely false. Most muslims here see themselves on religious lines first, and then on nationality.
 
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New initiative to strengthen India-Israel relations

New Delhi, Feb 16 (IANS) A new initiative has been launched to reach out to Indian policymakers, journalists and the public to spread awareness about Israel and help strengthen ties with India, especially in the fields of trade, tourism and technology.

The Israel Project (TIP), a non-profit educational organisation that provides information about Israel and the Middle East to the media, policymakers and the public, has launched the innovative programme in India to strengthen relations between the two countries.


Led by Molly Malekar, TIP's director of India affairs, the programme is already reaching out to over 2,000 journalists and leaders in India. The purpose is to get them the facts and sources they need to understand the region and strengthen relations between India and Israel, the organisation said in a statement Tuesday.


'Although diplomatic relations are still relatively new, India and Israel share a long history of co-existence and mutual appreciation,' said Malekar, who was born and raised in India.


'Both ancient civilizations gained independence at the same period; are vibrant democracies; and are looking at the future, striving towards mutually acceptable solutions to a vast array of challenges. The strengthening of this relationship will not only benefit the two societies but will also foster freedom and stability in

the region.'


India topped the list of tourists from Eastern countries to Israel in 2010, with over 40,000 visitors. The figure was up 75 percent compared to the previous year, displacing South Korea from the top slot after several years, according to Israeli official data.


With the successful campaign last year, the Israeli tourism ministry now aims to attract at least 50,000 Indian visitors in 2011 and also plans to participate for the first time at the International Tourism fair in Mumbai.


Last year, Israeli companies invested over $3 billion in India, in sectors ranging from dairy farming to real estate to hospitals.


In addition, both countries had signed five significant trade and economic agreements from 1993 to 1996, while bilateral trade grew from $80 million in 1991 to $4 billion in 2008.


For the first time in 2008 in Mumbai, companies from both sides held discussions for cooperation in building new technologies in solar energy, IT, robotics and others.


Israel has a close relationship with India on water management and other green initiatives, particularly agricultural. The Tel Aviv-based company Netafim, which provides irrigation solutions for agriculture and landscaping, has put more than 14,800 acres of land in Andhra Pradesh, known as the 'Rice Bowl of India', under sprinkler and drip irrigation.
 
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In fact, China has been invited, such as China and Pakistan in combating terrorism. If you say Pakistan can provide more help, that depends on whether the method of Pakistan is a good way, China has its own judgments. China will allow Saudi Arabia to have his influence In specific areas, mainly HUI, so if that is really a good way to solve the problem but would not challenge the sovereignty of China. I think China will certainly take it, but I doubt that there is any way in the short term. China's approach may be long-term And require significant investment, but I think it may be the only way.

Please. Don't even dream of bringing in Saudi Arabia. They will turn every single Uighur into a terrorist.

I wish Pakistan could help, and there are good people in the government, but the top level ministers are all hopeless. They will just take your money and not deliver anything.
 
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It might be just my experience on PDF, but the above statement is completely false. Most muslims here see themselves on religious lines first, and then on nationality.

Well, I must admit I haven't lived in Pakistan for many, many years so I don't know the situation on the ground. Most people that I know in Pakistan are very much Pakistani first and then Muslim. I don't know what's up with PDF.
 
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Spy satellites

Another area of cooperation is satellite imaging. In January 2008 India launched an advanced spy satellite on Israel’s behalf, capable of providing information on strategic installations in Iran. In April 2009 India launched its own spy satellite, acquired as a matter of urgency after the Mumbai terrorist attacks of November 2008 that left 170 dead and revealed serious gaps in its territorial surveillance network. India also spent $600m on Israeli radar to strengthen the warning systems along its western seaboard.

Israel is certainly a privileged partner in India’s efforts to improve its territorial security systems. The countries are strengthening an already close cooperative relationship on counter-terrorism. Israel has helped India to build a barrier along the “line of control”, its de facto border with Pakistan; it has provided surveillance systems to prevent infiltration by Islamist militants and Israelis are among the few outside consultants to have visited the theatre of operations in Kashmir.
 
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On the Uighur culture, I say more, modern civilization is a thing to be accepted, the Uighurs have to accept modern education, which can both develop their own more integrated and the world. The fact that all the other ethnic Chinese people also have a large impact in the past few decades, loss \ fear \ confusion, we have in the past, but after decades of development, we have more confidence, we believe that to face the shock, but also competition and Western culture. Uygur, I that is almost the same and other Chinese people, only more closed in Xinjiang, and that there is some time delay, more development with greater confidence, I think that to face it, I believe Uighurs have to face, but takes time . In fact, the maintenance of national culture and acceptance of modern culture are not necessarily contradictory, depending on how you feel, how you face. In fact HUI also has this problem, how do you think HUI how to answer? I gave an example


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这几年,外地的胞到我们这里传教,我参加听了他们的几次演讲,都一再要求回民儿童上清真寺学阿语、念经。我们本地的阿訇也一再强调这一点。不知大家对些有何高见?
In recent years, overseas compatriots to our mission here, I attended a few times listening to their speeches, have repeatedly asked the children to the mosque Muslims learn the Arab language of the Scriptures. Our local imam has repeatedly emphasized this point. I do not know any of these ideas?


1

作为一个中国穆斯林来说,连自己的本国文化都还学不好,还学习阿拉伯语啊。我们当家长的应该要经常把伊斯兰的信仰知识灌输给我们的孩子的同时,也要让孩子们好好地学习中文知识。这样我们穆斯林才能在社会上立足。阿訇们应该利用暑假、寒假的时间办好清真寺的普及教育让我们孩子们来学习伊斯兰的信仰常识。不要让我们的孩子学习了文化,丢了信仰。

As a Chinese Muslims, even their own national culture still is not adopted, but also to learn Arabic ah. We as parents should always put the Islamic faith knowledge to our children, but also let the children take to learn Chinese knowledge. So that we can in the society Muslims. They should use imams summer, winter vacation time to good education for the mosque to our children to learn knowledge of Islamic faith. Do not let our children only learn the culture, but lost faith.


2

对于外地达瓦宣讲,不适宜Weining HUI儿童。

一,威宁HUI以重视文化教育为首任,在国家同等教育政策下,回族儿童应当享受国家的义务教育政策。
对于这个问题,不存在学好不学好的事。但是,作为回族儿童,从小能够接触一些民族常方面的知识不是坏事,至少,清真寺的教育能够让孩子明白什么是对什么是错。
在威宁城关清真寺已经办了两届暑假班,从自己的小孩看,我觉得效果很好。
一,利用假期这个空间让小孩接触了阿语。
二,让小孩知道了穆斯林的正确行为。
三,避免了小孩在假期无所事事、到处乱整。
建议:
一,以教育阿语的正确发音为主,
二,以拼读为主;
三,以伊斯兰代表人物的美德故事为主。
四,不要对小孩灌输天堂的美好和火狱的恐怖,让其自行认识。



For this problem, and that does not exist to learn or not learn things. However, as a Muslim child, childhood often have access to knowledge of some ethnic groups is not a bad thing, at least, the mosque's education allows children to understand what is right and what is wrong.

Chengguan mosque in Wellington has organized two summer classes, from their own children to see, I feel very good.

First, use as a holiday in this space for a child exposed to Arab language.
Second, let children know the proper behavior of Muslims.
Third, to avoid the children in the holidays doing nothing, the whole chaos everywhere.

Recommendation:
First, the proper pronunciation of Arabic based education,
Second, the spell-based;
Third, representatives of the virtues of Islam the main story.
Fourth, do not educate the child and the beautiful paradise of terror of Hell, let self-awareness.


3

对于外地达瓦宣讲,不适宜Weining HUI儿童。

一,威宁HUI以重视文化教育为首任,在国家同等教育政策下,回族儿童应当享受国家的义务教育政策。

二,威宁的HUI后生有提高自身文化素质的权利和义务。

三,威宁的HUI后生长大后有参加国家管理和社会管理的权利。

四,威宁偏僻,HUI不学习汉文化就会越来越被社会淘汰。

五,威宁HUI如果汉语水平低,即使念经也永远念不成大阿訇。

六,希望各清真寺管委会及教长把握好分寸,不要走向误人子弟的极端。

七,外地的情况不适宜威宁的现状,不要生搬硬套。

八,一个优秀的民族应当是与时俱进的民族。小孩学习教门知识可摆在假期。

最后,本地阿訇“一再强调”的“这一点”是指脱离国家正规教育,念经去你们前面,还是办假期班?
如果办假期班,我同意,最好动员小孩到清真寺学习,前提是每天由阿訇督促做完作业。
如果是要求小孩脱离学校到清真寺念经,对不起,请滚出清真寺,何处需要你们你们就到何处去。


Dawa for foreign propaganda, not suitable for Weining HUI children.

First, Weining HUI culture and education as the first to attach importance to the national policy of equal education, Muslim children should enjoy the state's compulsory education policy.

Second, the HUI epigenetic Weining cultural quality has to improve their own rights and obligations.

Third, the HUI epigenetic Weining participating countries grow up with the right management and social management.

Fourth, Weining remote, HUI do not learn Chinese culture will increasingly be eliminated.

V. if Weining HUI the low level Chinese, even if read the Scriptures never a great imam.

Six, I hope the mosque Imam good grasp of CMC and sense of proportion, not to mislead other people's children , not extreme.

Seven The field unfit Weining, not mechanically.

VIII a good nation should be able to advance with the times. Children learn religious knowledge can be placed in the holidays.

Finally, the local imam, "has repeatedly emphasized that" the "this" refers to the formal education from the state, in front of the Scriptures to you, or do holiday classes?
If you do leave class, I agree, it is best to mobilize children to the mosque to learn, provided that the imam urged homework every day.
If the demand that children from the school to the mosque chanting, I'm sorry, please get out of the mosque, where they need you to where you will go.
 
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Another excellent post, thanks.

I agree that the Muslim world is ruled by emotion rather than logic or long term planning. That is one thing the Zionists are superb at. They planned the creation of Israel in the 19th century and worked methodically for its accomplishment for a century. Part of it is due to Jewish culture which is very good at promoting education, entrepreneurship and industry.

It is also true that perception matters more than reality. This, again, is where the Western media, mostly pro-Zionist, controls world opinion. Israel would be treated like Sudan, if the media were anti-Israel. Or, for a simpler example, look at the French ban on veils and headscarfs, or the Swiss ban on minarets. If a Muslim country had enacted such bans on Jewish symbols, it would be criticized around the world. But Europe's Islamophobia is celebrated by the Western media as a defence of cultural values.

So, in response to your post, I would say that a critical aspect of this battle is to weaken the absolute chokehold of the Zionists on the global media and counter it with a pro-Islamic or, at least, neutral media.

Thank you. How Israel came into being etc. is just a small part of the bigger jigsaw. The bigger picture is that there needs to be a sweeping rethink by the Muslim world in order to manage an image makeover amongst the rest of the world. Media management is an important cog, but would lack credibility without a perceptible change in the way the Muslim world re-integrates with the bigger world - both the Christian one as well as the others. And there are hardly any real neutrals here, that is very obvious.

So here is where the very pertinent exchange between you and Vinod on the issue of "open wounds" comes in. And there lies the real big difference between senior statesman world religion of Christianity and the bad boy maverick religion of Islam in the way the world at large sees them. let me explain.

Islam is now an old world religion that is unfortunately not yet matured or grown up. In many pockets of the world even today, it behaves as a brand new infant religion that is in peril, that needs constant re-affirmation and protection, that needs to be actively spread at the risk of dying out, and that is always at war with and suspicious of other faiths and their followers. A religion that is close to a millenia and a half old needs to come across very differently. But it does not. A here lies the reason for the open wounds.

It is in the nature of all wounds to heal with time. For closure one way or the other. Either the wound heals or it suppurates and leads finally to loss of limb or life. Both Christianity and Islam have over centuries inflicted serious wounds upon the world. Upon the lands and people they have conquered in their relentless march towards propagation and consolidation. But over time Christianity has changed. At least on the outside, in its overt missionary zeal, in the larger give and take with other religions and people. The Church has learned to live alongside other houses of faith that it once ravaged and pillaged and destroyed.

Islam has not learned to do so.

Even today, in the modern world where people have moved on as you put it, Islam has not. That is why there is a degree of intolerance and separatism linked with the people and political leadership and clergy of Muslim countries, that is not seen overtly in Christian dominated ones. Hence "the other" world, non-muslim and non-christian, have learned to be more comfortable and accepted and integrated into mainstream Christian dominated society than Muslim. Hence where the wounds inflicted by champions of the cross have slowly healed and the past forgiven, such is not the case for the warriors of the crescent.

The world's perception of Islam will not change by the change in behavior and outlook in pockets of liberated no-radical Islam. Instead, Islam will be judged by its behavior where it is the majority faith with unbridled power, and un-enforceable social responsibility. That is the need of the hour. Everything else will follow.
 
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