Stop violence against Christians in Karnataka

[53fd]

 

[53fd]

I also do not want to de-rail the thread..But if one accepts the truth, then there is no need for me to continue to insist on that..

You're the one that isn't accepting that there is nothing against apostasy in the Quran or Islam. This is my last post about Islam on this thread, you are clearly going in circles here & are not saying anything new.

 

[newdelhinsa]

I would blame thread locked yesterday on Pakistani Hindus for this local Mangalorean news been dug out by a Pakistani poster.

BTW both debates fell in favour to Indian's perspective.

Keep it up guys.


The thread has been concluded many pages before by sane poster SM who gave a very balanced first hand observation about lunatics doing mischiefs from both sides i.e. Hindus and Christians. I hope the sense will prevail and both sides will address the issue intelligently. I pray to god that nothing like what few Pakistani posters want, should occur in that vibrant city.

 

[KS]

You're the one that isn't accepting that there is nothing against apostasy in the Quran or Islam. This is my last post about Islam on this thread, you are clearly going in circles here & are not saying anything new.

So are you...I have clearly and without doubt proved that Bukhari Sharif and even verses in Quran prescribe the death penatly for apostasy and I have also proved that clerics and Ahadith scholars all over the world unanimously agree that Bukhari Sharif is authentic..2+2 = 4, my man.

---------- Post added at 01:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:29 PM ----------

I would blame thread locked yesterday on Pakistani Hindus for this local Mangalorean news been dug out by a Pakistani poster.

BTW both debates fell in favour to Indian's perspective.

Keep it up guys.


The thread has been concluded many pages before by sane poster SM who gave a very balanced first hand observation about lunatics doing mischiefs from both sides i.e. Hindus and Christians. I hope the sense will prevail and both sides will address the issue intelligently. I pray to god that nothing like what few Pakistani posters want, should occur in that vibrant city.

Yes I agree.

A catholic from Mangalore gave us what the situation was in a very true manner and it was also heartening to hear that both the community leaders were sorting things out to keep the fringe elements at bay.

So I'm off this thread... Haters gonna hate..

 

[53fd]

I would blame thread locked yesterday on Pakistani Hindus for this local Mangalorean news been dug out by a Pakistani poster.

BTW both debates fell in favour to Indian's perspective.

Keep it up guys.


The thread has been concluded many pages before by sane poster SM who gave a very balanced first hand observation about lunatics doing mischiefs from both sides i.e. Hindus and Christians. I hope the sense will prevail and both sides will address the issue intelligently. I pray to god that nothing like what few Pakistani posters want, should occur in that vibrant city.

What do you mean 'fell in favor of the Indian's perspective'? You mean that Hindus should not accept responsibility for what they are doing to the Christians in Mangalore? It was an Indian that first brought Muslims into this thread, & it were Indian posters that completely derailed this thread, making it about Islam.

 

[53fd]

So are you...I have clearly and without doubt proved that Bukhari Sharif and even verses in Quran prescribe the death penatly for apostasy and I have also proved that clerics and Ahadith scholars all over the world unanimously agree that Bukhari Sharif is authentic..2+2 = 4, my man.

Cut it with the lying. The Quranic verses were not about apostasy, they were about munafiqat in terms of treason. Nothing to do with apostasy. But you continue to lie.

The Muslim world does not unanimously agree Bukhari Sharif is authentic. The Shias, as well as various other sects do not accept its authenticity. Why do you feel the need to continue on lying?

 

[Bang Galore]

Manu and his teachings are glorified throughout the scriptures, both in the Vedas, the Puranas and in the writings of the Acharyas.

Yajur Veda 2.2.10:
'Too much splendour is produced', they say, 'he is liable to become a leper'; he should insert the verses of Manu's; whatever Manu said is medicine."

The Bhagavatam states:
manvantarani sat-dharmah

"True religious principles are the injunctions of Manu."

See also

Sama Veda 1.1.5.10
Sama Veda 1.2.4.10

Copy paste is not proof, merely pasting an opinion of someone in another forum here does not make you a scholar.

Is Manu Smriti a part of the Vedas?

Post#5

 

[Kadamba]

Manu and his teachings are glorified throughout the scriptures, both in the Vedas, the Puranas and in the writings of the Acharyas.

Yajur Veda 2.2.10:
'Too much splendour is produced', they say, 'he is liable to become a leper'; he should insert the verses of Manu's; whatever Manu said is medicine."

The Bhagavatam states:
manvantarani sat-dharmah

"True religious principles are the injunctions of Manu."

See also

Sama Veda 1.1.5.10
Sama Veda 1.2.4.10

Where is the Authentic source. ??

Man, I will tell you one thing even though its off topic, since you are focused on critisicing hinduism quoting Manu smriti (which is not a religious book) which is accoring to me is B*** s**t .

The point here is, in Hinduism itself there are astika and nastika schools of thoughts; Any of which you are free to choose according to your wish and comfort. If you don't think one is right you can are free to switch over to other. Go through the link before you start sp!tting.

Hindu philosophy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think this flexibility (Denouncing even Religious books - Vedas; declining even the existence of God and still remain Hindu) is alien concept in other religions and that's why Hinduism accepts mistakes if any and moves ahead with time while other religions (specially Abrahamic) are hell bent on finding ways to prove correctness their religious book, word by word; even if some elements are wrong !!

@ Bang Galore: Thanks for providing the link.

 

[53fd]

Attacks on Christians in Karnataka Frequent, Furious

Southern state has become epicenter of religious assaults, Christians say.
NEW DELHI, February 4 (CDN) — Karnataka state recorded the highest number of anti-Christian attacks in India last year, and it is keeping pace this year.

Christians in Karnataka are being attacked “at rapid regularity” and “with near impunity,” and it is “a serious matter of concern for the Christian community,” said Dr. Babu Joseph, spokesperson of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of India (CBCI).

Much of the violence occurs under the vigilante pretext of rounding up Christians supposedly involved in “forcible” or “fraudulent” conversion efforts. On Monday (Feb. 1) in Thagadur village, Kodagu district, Hindu extremists dragged 11 Christians – including four women – from their homes and colluded with police to arrest them on such false charges.

The Global Council of Indian Christians reported that all of the Christians, members of the Beraka Gospel Church in Suntikupa village, were tortured at the Siddapur police station to pressure them to admit to the charges. Most of the jailed Christians are tribal, daily wage laborers who work on coffee plantations.

Police denied torturing the Christians, but like many people in India easily confused by Hindu extremist propaganda, Inspector Ratan Singh of the Siddapur police station seemed to erroneously believe that laws against fraudulent conversion apply to any kind of proclamation of faith.

“According to the complaint we received, the accused were inviting local Hindus for prayer meetings to convert them,” Singh told Compass, as if such activity were illegal in India. “We did not beat them. When they were produced before the judicial magistrate, they said they were not mistreated by the police.”

The GCIC recorded 72 attacks on Christians in Karnataka in 2009. That represents a decline from the 112 attacks the previous year, when three months of anti-Christian violence in Orissa state’s Kandhamal district in 2008 led Hindu extremists in Karnataka to lash out as well, according to Christian leaders.

Justice Michael F. Saldanha, a retired judge of the Karnataka High Court and president of the Catholic Association of South Kanara (a district in Karnataka also known as Dakshina Kannada), told Compass that attacks on Christians in the state increased after the Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP) began to rule.

In May 2008 the BJP came to power in Karnataka, thus making it the first southern state with a stand-alone BJP government in the history of India. The party’s rule was preceded by a 20-month rule in alliance with a local party, the Janata Dal (Secular).

Although Karnataka has had a dominant presence of the Hindu extremist Sangh Parivar since 1950, its cadres obtained free rein only after the BJP’s electoral victory, Saldanha explained.

“The real headquarters of the Sangh Parivar is not in Maharashtra [official headquarters of the Hindu extremist Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, or RSS, in Nagpur), it’s in Karnataka,” said Saldanha, who conducted a private inquiry into a series of attacks that rocked Karnataka in September 2008 following the unprecedented anti-Christian bloodbath in Orissa state’s Kandhamal district.

Between Aug. 17 and Sept. 21, 2008, more than 28 attacks on churches, led mainly by the Hindu extremist Bajrang Dal, a Sangh Parivar offshoot, were reported from various parts of Karnataka.

Saldanha pointed out that Brahmins, the highest or priestly class in the caste hierarchy in Hinduism, from Udupi district and Mangalore city in neighboring Dakshina Kannada district played a special role in leading the Hindu right-wing movement. The retired judge also accused the BJP government of supporting Sangh Parivar outfits with public money.

“The Karnataka government gives money to right-wing groups for festivals in the name of celebrations, and also through donations to certain temples,” he said.

Agreeing with Saldanha, the CBCI’s Joseph said the violence in Karnataka points to a “decline in civility and collapse of administration.”

“It is indeed sad that Karnataka, which enjoyed communal harmony and social amity for so long, has recently been pushed into the cycle of hate crimes perpetrated by the extreme elements in society that do not believe in mutual tolerance or acceptance,” Joseph said.

Karnataka Gov. H.R. Bhardwaj reportedly said earlier this week that protection of people’s lives and liberties, including the right to propagate their religion, was “the essence of Indian democracy.”

The governor said it was the responsibility of the state government “to see that nobody is allowed to flout the democratic norms and laws of the land,” acknowledging a rise in the incidence of attacks against churches, reported Daijiworld.

His comments came a day after an attack on a glass painting of the Virgin Mary at the entrance arch of the Canara Organisation for Development and Peace building in Nantoor area on Saturday (Jan. 30).

On that day Christians held a silent protest in Mysore, and on Monday (Feb. 1) Christians in Mangalore protested in like fashion against increasing attacks on them.

On Jan. 28, unidentified people burned down a church in Raipura area in Molakalmuru town in Chitradurga district. The Jesus Loves Holy Temple Church turned into ashes, reported GCIC.

Two Catholic churches were attacked in Mysore and Uttara Kannada districts on Jan. 25. Unidentified people reportedly broke a statue of Mary on the compound wall of the Holy Family Church in Hinkal village in the wee hours in Mysore district. In the other incident, glass panes covering the statue of Mary were broken at St. Anthony Church in the Pernamakki area in Uttara Kannada district.

At 2:30 a.m. this morning, unidentified people broke into a Catholic church and vandalized it in the Malavalli area of Mandya district, reported the Karnataka-based GCIC. The cross, statues and musical instruments in the St. Mathias Church were destroyed, it said, adding that the parish priest filed a complaint at the Malavalli police station.

‘Lip Service’
Echoing claims of the Hindu nationalist BJP, Karnataka State Minorities Commission member Anthony Fernandez said he does not believe there is any reason for concern.

“Some elements are simply trying to tarnish the image of the state government,” he said.

Fernandez acknowledged, however, that the Hindu nationalist Sri Ram Sene (Army of God Rama) was involved in some attacks. The Sri Ram Sene is believed to be a splinter group from the Sangh Parivar family of organizations under the RSS.

Karnataka Chief Minister B.S. Yeddyurappa on Jan. 28 warned those who vandalize religious places, saying he would have their hands “chopped off.”

“I, the chief minister of Karnataka, am saying I will chop off their hands,” Yeddyurappa was quoted as saying by Headlines Today news channel.

The CBCI’s Joseph said “lip service” by the government was “no longer enough.”

“It has to show results on the ground that it means business in tackling the menace of communal elements,” he said. “Unprovoked violence against fellow citizens in the name of religion is pernicious, and it must stop forthwith, or else the impression may gain ground that the administration of the day is colluding with criminal and extreme elements in vitiating the social harmony for short term political gains – something this country can ill afford in the long run.”

 

[Ahmad]

The Muslim world does not unanimously agree Bukhari Sharif is authentic. The Shias, as well as various other sects do not accept its authenticity. Why do you feel the need to continue on lying?

Bukhari is accepted as the most authentic book after the Quran by the Sunnis, while the Shias have their own book of Ahadith.

 

[Ahmad]

Yes, the Shias do not accept the Sahih Bukhari as authentic. There are various other sub-sects that don't accept it either. That's not the topic of the thread though.

may i ask which other sects dont accept it apart from shias?

 

[53fd]

-------------------------------------

I'll answer that on another thread. This thread has been derailed enough already, Muslims & Islam were never the topic here.

 

[Guest01]

It is a community thing. If the leaders of one are trying to convert people from other community, the leaders of other community are anyway bound to retailate. However, still do not see the point of violence when the courts are available as a recourse to this conversion situation.

The incident should be investigated and guilty arrested and tried.

However, the keen interest of some of our Pakistani friends on this thread is a good sign. May be they will also now dwell a little bit on the favourite valentine of Pakistani earlier this year = Mumtaz Qadri. He seems to be more sought after than what Mumtaz Mahal would have been in her hey days if the falling over each other for moochi kissing Qadri was any benchmark to go by.

This love for people otherwise considered kaafir in Pakistan is encouraging. This will be good for humanity. May be the Ahmedis could also get a little bit of respite on this forum with this little bit of love emanating from Pakistani friends on this thread for other religions.

 

[53fd]

Hindu Radicals’ Terrorist Attacks Against Christians:

'The [Karnataka] state is under an unprecedented wave of Christian persecution, having faced more than 1,000 attacks in 500 days.... On Jan. 26 - the day we celebrated India's Republic Day - Karnataka’s 1,000th attack took place in Mysore city' -

The media reports of Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) getting worried about Hindutva Terror investigations leading to some of the high-profile names in the RSS like Indresh Kumar and the damage it might cause to its image, is nothing more than a PR exercise. It does not probably realize that the public is too well aware of its ideological moorings, its admiration for Hitler and Mussolini and anti-minority bashing as part of its regular diet.

However much the RSS might try to project an image of itself as a “cultural” organization, the lathi-wielding morning shakas in various public parks are enough proof of the organization’s intent. Is the RSS now afraid that their plans hatched secretly for Gujarat, Orissa, Karnataka and other BJP-ruled states will become public as the Police investigations in blasts after blasts are establishing links with its followers?

Reports of the involvement of Hindu groups in Orissa and Karnatka blasts on Christian targets have started appearing in the media. This, despite the fact that the one-man Somashekara Commission appointed by the BJP-ruled Karnataka government to look into the attacks on Christians in 2008, gave a clean chit to all Hindu groups saying none of them were involved in the attacks. Christians have been at the receiving end not only by the Sangh Parivar but also at the hands of the government and occasionally at the hands of the media, who sometimes ignore highlighting the atrocities committed on Christians.

So far the focus of the so-called ‘Hindu’ or ‘saffron’ terror has been only mosques and the Samjhauta Express where bomb blasts took place. Little, if ever, has been written or spoken to connect the attacks on Christians with this brand of terror. Now that reports have started appearing in some of the print media, hopefully a little more attention will be paid to the role of Abhinav Bharat’s Lieutenant Colonel Purohit’s and other persons from Hindu outfits, role in several attacks in the country on the Christian community as confirmed by military investigator’s report.

For the Christian Community itself, these revelations are nothing new. It is only that their voice is often ignored by the Police or by the powers that be. For instance, let us take the case of Swami Aseemanand’s confession before the magistrate after his ‘conversion’ in the prison because of the good behaviour of a fellow Muslim (for the Sangh Parivar that would be a contradiction in terms, ‘good behaviour and Muslims&#8217.

With more revelations made by Swami Aseemanand about his terror links with various Muslim targets such as Malegaon, Mecca Masjid and Ajmer Dargah (not much is being spoken of the blast in Modasa, Gujarat) and the Samjhauta Express blasts, including the surfacing of the RSS activist’s name Indresh Kumar and others, it would be quite illuminating to look into his and others’ role in some other attacks. Of course, RSS chief Mohan Bhagwat and others tried to brush aside these reports by saying that it was all a political conspiracy to malign the name of the RSS and a technique used by the Congress to divert public attention from the scams.

In the past few years, the number of attacks on the Christian community, monitored meticulously by the Evangelical Fellowship of India has recorded more than 1000 attacks every year. On a petition by the spokesperson of Madhya Pradesh Fr. Anand Muttungal, the MP High Court asked the government of MP to explain as to how in one year there had been more than 180 attacks on the Christian community. No prizes for guessing as to which states have higher numbers of attacks.

Swami Aseemanand had taken upon himself to target Christian missionaries working in the Dangs district of Gujarat ever since he arrived there in the end of 1995. Under his leadership, the VHP and Bajarang Dal organized a rally on Christmas Day in 1998 in Subir to prevent Christians from celebrating Christmas. A person allegedly planted by the troublemakers in the Christian crowd that traditionally gathered to celebrate Christmas, threw a stone at the so-called “Hindu gathering”, which had anyway gathered to ‘terrorize’ and attack Christians on the Christmas Day. The carnage, started on Christmas day, lasted well over twelve days. The panicked Christian community just did not know where to turn, for it was the BJP government in Gujarat and the NDA at the centre.

NDA being new to power then and Mr. Vajpayee under pressure from the secular allies of the NDA, decided to make a trip to the Dangs before the smoke from the burnt churches and schools could stop spewing. In his typical style, rather than condemning the series of attack on the Christian community and offering solace to the victims, he only added insult to injury by declaring that there should be a debate on conversion in the country. The then Archbishop of Delhi and the President of the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of India, Archbishop Allan de Lastic, lost no time in calling for a press conference, welcoming the debate, while at the same time reminding everyone about the lengthy discussion in the Constituent Assembly on the subject. Taken aback by the Christian leader’s response and the resignation of Fali S Nariman, the then counsel for Gujarat in the Narmada dam dispute case in the Supreme Court, the Prime Minister backed down on the issue of the said debate.

But the Aseemanands and the Laxmanand Sarswatis of the world had got the message of support for their terrorist activities and felt emboldened to continue their attacks on Christians. Before Assemanand got involved in planning ‘bombs for bombs’, he was busy converting Christians to Hinduism. In 2006 he organized a huge Shabri Kumbh in the Dangs district where the slogan adopted was “Every single person converted to Christianity adds one more enemy to the country”.

The most disheartening part of the story is that the Christian community’s pain and despair does not seem to concern anyone, as the buzz heard in political circles always is, “Not to worry, they anyway do not make for a votebank”. Nor are the Police interested in following up the complaints of Christians terrorized by the right wing groups.

The pattern followed by Swami Aseemanand in the Dangs was replicated in Kandhmal by Swami Laxmananand Sarswati who along with his men on 23 December 2007 objected to the Christian community making preparations for Christmas following which attacks continued against the Christian community for a whole week. Eight months later, when the Swami was hacked to death by Maoists and despite the Maoists and police stating that the Maoists had killed the Swami, the BJP workers, the Bajrang Dal and the VHP persisted with the bloodshed against the Christian community for 42 days, killing nearly 100 people, burning 147 churches and Christian institutions and leaving nearly 48,000 people homeless, not to mention the most shameful act of raping a consecrated nun.

Again at that time, Manoj Pradhan was given a ticket by the BJP to contest elections from G. Udaygiri in the Kandhamal district while serving a jail term as an accused in the murder of Ms. Pariskhita Digal. Pradhan was facing fourteen criminal cases including six of murder and for rioting and arson against the Christian community in October 2008. He contested the elections on BJP ticket from while in jail and won. He later got bail and was free until 29 June 2010 when a fast track court sentenced him to seven years rigorous imprisonment. He was sent to jail immediately but got out on a High Court bail on the very day when the RSS was appealing to the BJP to help it save its name from being tarnished. Prahdan did not make big news in the national print and TV media because he operates in distant Orissa, and perhaps because his victims are poor Dalit Christians.

Ever since the BJP came to power in Karnataka, there have been continuous attacks on the Christian community. Without any provocation, the Ram Sene people have gone on a rampage and beaten up nuns inside their convents. According to Justice Michael Saldhana, former judge of the Karnataka High Court who led the People’s Tribunal Enquiry into the attacks on Christians in Karnataka on behalf of the People’s Union for Civil Liberties’ Dakshina Kannada district chapter, said, “The state is under an unprecedented wave of Christian persecution, having faced more than 1,000 attacks in 500 days… On Jan. 26 [2010]- the day we celebrated India’s Republic Day - that Karnataka’s 1,000th attack took place in Mysore city”.

While Christians do understand that the media and the investigating agencies go after the bomb blasters, the community also asks as to why attacks on them in such huge numbers by the very same terrorists is not considered as terrorist attacks? They do not expect much from the political parties, as sadly the community is not perceived as a votebank, except maybe in some pockets of Kerala, Goa and the North East but they certainly expect the conscientious media to speak up for their cause too.

Hindutva Terror against Christians

 

[LaBong]

Manu and his teachings are glorified throughout the scriptures, both in the Vedas, the Puranas and in the writings of the Acharyas.

Yajur Veda 2.2.10:
'Too much splendour is produced', they say, 'he is liable to become a leper'; he should insert the verses of Manu's; whatever Manu said is medicine."

The Bhagavatam states:
manvantarani sat-dharmah

"True religious principles are the injunctions of Manu."

See also

Sama Veda 1.1.5.10
Sama Veda 1.2.4.10

Manusmriti was composed between 200 BCE and 200 CE, after the breakdown of Mourya empire, it was the product of the void of that time.

Vedas were composed roughly between 1500–1000 BCE, now do the math genius!

Anyway there are schools of Hinduism which reject Vedas and yet to be called Hindus, we are not people of the Book!