Start another business if schools run into losses, says CJ

[Crusher]

In Pakistan a supervisor is hardly publishing anything,it's always his student who is doing everything while his names always comes as First author.

Yes perfect example of intellectual dishonesty, for example even here in germany the idea always originate from your supervisor, you are just pursuing it to test and get something out of it. Here if your supervisor wants his name as first author, he will always write the paper himself and will just ask you to provide the results he is interested to publish.

 

[Sine Nomine]

Yes perfect example of intellectual dishonesty, for example even here in germany the idea always originate from your supervisor, you are just pursuing it to test and get something out of it. Here if your supervisor wants his name as first author, he will always write the paper himself and will just ask you to provide the results he is interested to publish.

In Pakistan being supervisor is enough,most of time students are self funding their research.

 

[war&peace]

Bahi still they are million times better then us,when it comes to such things.

I personally cannot compare with Pakistani prof because I don't have. But I have worked with a lot of professors & researcher at multiple places. And I have noted all of them are hungry for research papers... I included at the start of my research career a lot of names who I have met only once or twice during my research... i.e. group head etc..and I used to feel guilty, offended so for next papers I added only the names of people who genuinely worked with me. A lot of my colleagues told me it will damage your career as a researcher and I told them I have no intention of continuing in academia.

 

[Sugarcane]

BTW how many of the people writing in these threads are the product of a private school? I bet almost everyone here who grew up in Pakistan is a product of a private school.

Perhaps, only those who have studied in government schools can understand the clowns in judiciary are running circus over very critical thing. If they had any intent to protect the right of citizen and cared about necessity of education, then these clown should be taking government to task to increase and improve public schools and provide quality education there that people don't have to go to private schools.

 

[Dubious]

We have law known as civil servants acts,which shields everyone from legal action.

What law is that?

Please enlighten me I need to know what crap goes on and what shirty laws protect retards (sorry for my language but I deem education as very important and it shouldnt be thrown under the bus like in Pakistan)

I have a contention with your assertion that teachers should be made to earn their privileges; In my opinion, our highest salary bracket should be reserved for our teachers, make it so lucrative that the top and brightest minds aim to become teachers. Teachers who also engage in Research & Development along with their students.

Such teachers will make even the worst of students into productive pillars of the society. You set the base right and it will ensure the entire structure is strong.

I agree with this at pri and secondary level...My example was for university level....

Ask women that it's basic thing or luxury (Constitution should be amended for it accordingly)

It is not a luxury! It is self hate and peer pressure

Health is also basic right, Do cheap justice issue price list of consultation fee to doctors?

They should

Quality Primary & Secondary education is responsibility of state through Public schools, State can't transfer responsibility to private schools

They can as long as it is regulated! There is a reason it is called Mafia....Just coz you have been given the opportunity to do good for the state as a private institute doesnt mean you start looting the state (people are part of the state) like politicians!

I was in university here in germany, I never saw any supervisor asking any student who was going to publish a paper based on his research to put his supervisor's name as first author. But sometimes your supervisor might be writing a review article where your work is adjusted in one of the sections and off course in that case your supervisor who is writing the review paper will be the first author.

Supervisors have their name last - It indicates they supervised...These days people in the West are negotiating name placed at the end...

The important pieces are the 1st author, the corresponding author/s and the name that goes last!

Perhaps, only those who have studied in government schools can understand the clowns in judiciary are running circus over very critical thing. If they had any intent to protect the right of citizen and cared about necessity of education, then these clown should be taking government to task to increase and improve public schools and provide quality education there that people don't have to go to private schools.

Govt has started working on public schools but result wont be available immediately so on the side...we can help the private school students too....After all private school HAS become a business...I would know many ladies in my family and family friends are teachers...This is also why I have such a hatred for Pakistani education system esp the private one - up close from the pov of student and teacher and administrator- and believe me it is nasty money making scheme...Some with fancy names like British International or whatnot are always looking for a function to sell tickets! And they literally emotionally blackmail teachers to sell x number of tickets (how is that not mafia?)

Then there is the most ridiculous amount of homework and carrying heavy school books! Man with that school fee you should be providing the txt books!
The teachers arent exactly highly paid so where is the money going?
Most of the time the land is bought not on rent So where is the money going?
The facilities arent top notch so where is the money going?
They arent giving free meals like Madrasah so where is the money going?
Most of the time the facilities remain broken till years when they need it to look pretty for some guest of honour...So where exactly is the money going?

Why the need to increase so much of the fee? How is this not mafia?

 

[Sugarcane]

It is not a luxury! It is self hate and peer pressure

Maybe you are exception, otherwise singhar is in nature of women and have nothing to do with self hate. It has always been. And hair cut for men is also necessity not self-hate or peer pressure.

They can as long as it is regulated! There is a reason it is called Mafia....Just coz you have been given the opportunity to do good for the state as a private institute doesnt mean you start looting the state (people are part of the state) like politicians!

When there will be huge gap in demand and supply there will be mafias, in case of education - state failed miserably to deliver the right of basic quality education and instead of accepting fault it's scapegoating private schools.

Govt has started working on public schools but result wont be available immediately so on the side...

It's all talks till now, nothing substantial on ground. Otherwise it's 6 years that PTI is in power in KPK, Private schools should be facing competition from Public schools by now there.

we can help the private school students too....

These steps will have actually inverse effect on private school students and on pockets of their parents. Before this circus, I was paying 33,000 fees for my two kids, school had good experienced and qualified teachers so children didn't need extra tuition. After the last cycle of circus, I am now paying 47,000, good teachers have left the school as school reduced the salaries on pretext that courts have reduced fees, these good teachers (who have now opened academies or giving home tuitions) are replaced with less qualified and inexperienced teachers. Now, my kids need tuition and I have to pay 16,000 for that as well. So, After the stunt by forking clowns of judiciary, I ended up paying more for lower quality education.

After all private school HAS become a business...

It's not after all they became business, they were business from start.

I would know many ladies in my family and family friends are teachers...This is also why I have such a hatred for Pakistani education system esp the private one - up close from the pov of student and teacher and administrator- and believe me it is nasty money making scheme...Some with fancy names like British International or whatnot are always looking for a function to sell tickets! And they literally emotionally blackmail teachers to sell x number of tickets (how is that not mafia?)

It's fault of state, they should have code of conduct for education business.

Then there is the most ridiculous amount of homework and carrying heavy school books! Man with that school fee you should be providing the txt books!
The teachers arent exactly highly paid so where is the money going?
Most of the time the land is bought not on rent So where is the money going?
The facilities arent top notch so where is the money going?
They arent giving free meals like Madrasah so where is the money going?
Most of the time the facilities remain broken till years when they need it to look pretty for some guest of honour...So where exactly is the money going?

Money is going in pocket of businessman like in every business entity go, why it will be different in case of schools business. People always have choice to go to less expensive private school or go to public school, it's not that private school abduct children and admit in their school. If government want to help parents, then enforce uniform academic sessions, bring national level curriculum (by improving the curriculum of public and small private schools not by forcing outdated curriculum on private schools who are doing better) so that parents can switch schools as per their affordability, it will increase the competition in quality and price which will break mafia, introduce rules and guidelines for extra curriculum activities, uniforms, canteens etc. to stop ripoff. It's idiotic to think that you can force private schools to provide better quality with less price by shoving court orders, or asking them to stop business as if the clowns in judiciary and government will start providing the better education if these schools go on strike.

 

[Sine Nomine]

What law is that?

Civil Servant act 1973 & Punjab Police (E & D) Rules, 1975

 

[Dubious]

When there will be huge gap in demand and supply there will be mafias, in case of education - state failed miserably to deliver the right of basic quality education and instead of accepting fault it's scapegoating private schools.

I dont think the court is working for the govt!

It's all talks till now, nothing substantial on ground. Otherwise it's 6 years that PTI is in power in KPK, Private schools should be facing competition from Public schools by now there.

I havent been there to KPK so cant say!

After the last cycle of circus, I am now paying 47,000, good teachers have left the school as school reduced the salaries on pretext that courts have reduced fees, these good teachers (who have now opened academies or giving home tuitions) are replaced with less qualified and inexperienced teachers. Now, my kids need tuition and I have to pay 16,000 for that as well. So, After the stunt by forking clowns of judiciary, I ended up paying more for lower quality education.

So it is the fault of the courts and not the schools who are scheming this way?

You as a parent should also take your case to court like these other parents did instead of suffering in silence!

It's not after all they became business, they were business from start.

Yea well business in quantity not quality!

It's fault of state, they should have code of conduct for education business.

You still think it should be a business? Education is supposed to be the right of the child not at the expense of the child's future!

Money is going in pocket of businessman like in every business entity go, why it will be different in case of schools business

And this is why they require to be regulated

Civil Servant act 1973 & Punjab Police (E & D) Rules, 1975

What is this abt? A quick google didnt show me anything useful

 

[Sine Nomine]

What is this abt? A quick google didnt show me anything useful

It saves you from getting fired,of you are super lazy and useless.

 

[Sugarcane]

I dont think the court is working for the govt!

They aren't working for people either, just pulling publicity stunts now and then, giving remarks like politicians.

So it is the fault of the courts and not the schools who are scheming this way?

Yes, It's surely fault of courts who instead of making government accountable for not fulfilling it's duty under article 25, instead it went on to decide pricelists of private businesses.

You as a parent should also take your case to court like these other parents did instead of suffering in silence!

I am not idiot that I send my kids to elite school and then ask courts to order the school to reduce fees. And result of such intervention by courts is already there that I have to pay more now for lesser quality, on top of that waste of time of my kids. Even for non-profit school, if you hire proper qualified teacher, provide proper infrastructure and quality education the fees will not be affordable for many because the Education is expensive thing that's why in sensible countries government take the responsibility of it not privatize it.

It's foolish to assume that someone running school business will not try to maximize profits like other businessmen when other businessmen even vegetable and fruit seller don't spare chance to charge hefty prices when they have chance - do they care about affordability for basic food items during Ramdan, Eid? It's even more foolish to think that if you by force reduce the fee the quality of education that school was providing will remain so. When government classify private schools as commercial entity, apply same income tax laws, commercial electricity tariff, same ST & FED on all inputs then why you expect them to behave as non-business entity?

You still think it should be a business? Education is supposed to be the right of the child not at the expense of the child's future!

Looks like you still didn't understand that It's state who isn't fulfilling it's responsibility of providing affordable quality education and playing with future for children. AND PLEASE KEEP IN MIND, quality of education is not the only factor people go to private school, the poor people have to go to private schools because there's no public school, if it is then it lacks basic facilities and teacher, or it's over capacity and can't get their children admitted there, so this poor man will admit his children in to tiny private school employing less then 10 teachers and charging less then 500 fees. This man wouldn't have to be customer of private school if state provided him school with building and teachers forget the curriculum or quality of teacher. Did clowns of judiciary ever took notice that why 60% of students have to study in private schools? Why public schools in Punjab only have been reduced to 54000 from 63000? Max 5% of private students study in expensive and elite schools, rest of them study in school where quality of education is not much different from normal public school of Punjab, majority of these will admit their children to public schools IF government provide them school with basic facility of desks, drinking water, WC, teachers and quality equivalent to these schools which is very low bench mark itself.

I am not one of those who will start clapping on watching publicity stunts when things are actually going south.

 

[Dubious]

They aren't working for people either, just pulling publicity stunts now and then, giving remarks like politicians.

THAT may be true...But being a hopeful citizen I can hope it is for the people!

Yes, It's surely fault of courts who instead of making government accountable for not fulfilling it's duty under article 25, instead it went on to decide pricelists of private businesses.

Education should not be a business in any case!

I am not idiot that I send my kids to elite school and then ask courts to order the school to reduce fees. And result of such intervention by courts is already there that I have to pay more now for lesser quality, on top of that waste of time of my kids. Even for non-profit school, if you hire proper qualified teacher, provide proper infrastructure and quality education the fees will not be affordable for many because the Education is expensive thing that's why in sensible countries government take the responsibility of it not privatize it.

"VERY FEW" sensible countries...Most do run it like a business!

If you dont stand up for your right then things will keep coming and biting you!

It's foolish to assume that someone running school business will not try to maximize profits like other businessmen when other businessmen even vegetable and fruit seller don't spare chance to charge hefty prices when they have chance - do they care about affordability for basic food items during Ramdan, Eid? It's even more foolish to think that if you by force reduce the fee the quality of education that school was providing will remain so. When government classify private schools as commercial entity, apply same income tax laws, commercial electricity tariff, same ST & FED on all inputs then why you expect them to behave as non-business entity?

Is the bold part true?

Looks like you still didn't understand that It's state who isn't fulfilling it's responsibility of providing affordable quality education and playing with future for children.

70 years of damage doesnt get fixed overnight! ESP when even the ministry of education is not really functioning as a neutral body!

AND PLEASE KEEP IN MIND, quality of education is not the only factor people go to private school, the poor people have to go to private schools because there's no public school, if it is then it lacks basic facilities and teacher, or it's over capacity and can't get their children admitted there, so this poor man will admit his children in to tiny private school employing less then 10 teachers and charging less then 500 fees. This man wouldn't have to be customer of private school if state provided him school with building and teachers forget the curriculum or quality of teacher.

THIS I can agree with...But these are the same people who voted for these in govt since past 30 yrs, right? Why didnt it occur to them then?

The state of the school didnt become so overnight, now did it?

Did clowns of judiciary ever took notice that why 60% of students have to study in private schools? Why public schools in Punjab only have been reduced to 54000 from 63000? Max 5% of private students study in expensive and elite schools, rest of them study in school where quality of education is not much different from normal public school of Punjab, majority of these will admit their children to public schools IF government provide them school with basic facility of desks, drinking water, WC, teachers and quality equivalent to these schools which is very low bench mark itself.

30 yrs in Punjab and you are telling me it didnt become better? Consistent govt should have taken notice..But a govt couldnt "fix" this in 30 yrs but you want it fixed in 1.5 yrs?

Why werent these demands put forward in last 30 yrs?

I am not one of those who will start clapping on watching publicity stunts when things are actually going south.

Then whatELSE are you doing apart from sitting on the internet?

 

[Sugarcane]

Education should not be a business in any case!

Education business exist everywhere in world (barring few exception). You don't like it, ask government to buy all these private schools and convert them to public schools.

"VERY FEW" sensible countries...Most do run it like a business!

If you dont stand up for your right then things will keep coming and biting you!

I am standing up for my right which is STATE SHOULD PROVIDE EDUCATION as defined in article 25 of constitution while you are promoting that courts should be managing and dictating private businesses.

Is the bold part true?

Yes it is, you can check from wherever you want.

70 years of damage doesnt get fixed overnight! ESP when even the ministry of education is not really functioning as a neutral body!

So, dictating private schools will fix the problem or make quality of education worse?

THIS I can agree with...But these are the same people who voted for these in govt since past 30 yrs, right? Why didnt it occur to them then?

The state of the school didnt become so overnight, now did it?

Shouldn't same question be asked from clown of judiciary? Were they sleeping all these years or copy of constitution they have excludes article 25?

30 yrs in Punjab and you are telling me it didnt become better? Consistent govt should have taken notice..But a govt couldnt "fix" this in 30 yrs but you want it fixed in 1.5 yrs?

Why werent these demands put forward in last 30 yrs?

Yes, asking private schools to start other business will surely fix the problem overnight.

 

[Sugarcane]

Is the bold part true?

Further more, only in Pakistan where state failed to fulfill it's responsibility of providing education and transferred it's responsibility to private business - Banana republic have imposed 5% extra tax on tuition fees that is exclusive of 33% corporate tax like other business entities (which schools recover from students)

Tax collection from schools on tuition fee has reached a record high during the fiscal year 2017-18. The figure reached a whopping Rs 3.84 Billion, which is 24% higher than the tax collected in FY17 which was Rs 3.1 Billion.

https://propakistani.pk/2018/08/24/...gh-tax-from-educational-institutions-in-2018/

 

[VCheng]

I think previous cjp made it clear that courts intervene when it is related human rights issues or issues to do with the population....and juicing the parents dry is an issue worth the courts time....

How do you fix public education? For starters stop giving them (teachers, principles, even education minister) perks and make them work for it as rewards

It will weed out any none serious people whose aim is to heat the chair and become money makers...

Make prof who don't produce anything retire early without any perks....coz perks should be rewards for hard work not for heating a govt chair....

Most Scandinavian prof need to find their own funding for their research...their basic pay isn't great nor does it cover their lab expenses much so without funds their labs would die out and eventually them....This is how you weed out none productive prof who happen to be biggest mafia in Pakistan...

At primary school level let teacher attendance be also counted and those below satisfactory given only one warning then fired....we have a big enough population to full jobs...don't need laziness

But this can only happen when the one appointing hasn't made this a money making business to sell positions or give to waqfiat (hope this is the right word) or safarish

U also think primary school should focus on creativity than dance and fashion competitions .....I have few relatives and family friends who teach in schools IN Pakistan. ...he number of useless functions and he number of times they juice parents and harass students to sell mela tickets and whatnot is just disgusting. ....students end up being bimbo puppet dolls who only know how to strut on catwalks and sell at food stalls.....where are science fairs/ national level quizzes / debates not just on politics but maybe social issues too? Where are study trips or experiences like clean up your beach drives?

Primary and secondary school kids are young energetic and you can mold them...but if your idea of molding is fashion shows and mela. ...It is no wonder we have crap come out in the thousands!!

Then maybe you will see some change
@VCheng

But human nature is such that eliminating or reducing perks will only make talent leave the sector, leaving behind failed people who cannot do anything else to take up the teaching roles, just like we end up with the mullahs. I would suggest more perks is the answer, not less.

 

[Dubious]

I would suggest more perks is the answer, not less.

So far the number of perks given have not yielded anything....in fact has even caused ghost schools with no teachers living off these perks!

But human nature is such that eliminating or reducing perks will only make talent leave the sector

I would think that honest people who really care or want to make the change would be left behind...But true money is very important in Pakistan and honest people arent rich...