‘Stand Up to US or Have Future Generations Deride Us’ – ISI Chief

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Who holds the actual power in Pakistan The Army or Politicians who gave the base to UAE the army or the politicians who made an agreement with USA the army or the politicians

The Military, according to reports in various news organizations, appears to have clearly communicated to parliament that the responsibility for setting foreign policy towards the US rests with them. The Deputy Air Chief clearly stated that if parliament wanted the AF to shoot down drones, they could and would, but that it was parliament's job to analyze the pros and cons of such a decision.

The ISI chief clearly put the ball in parliaments court, that they had to devise policy towards the US, though he was also rather clear about which direction he thought policy should go in.

Quite frankly, the whole bit about 'Army controlling the GoP' has been exposed here for what it is, deceit and lies by the politicians and their apologists to place the blame for unpopular policies by the GoP (accepting US aid, accepting US drone strikes, accepting CIA operations on Pakistani soil) onto the Army. No doubt the Army retains a lot of influence on foreign policy, and its input is considered seriously, but this briefing made clear that the Army is not getting its way completely, not even close.

 

[The HBS Guy]

I doubt they ever tried to convey that impression - how could they when terrorist attacks continue to happen in Pakistan? The ISI is not a domestic intelligence agency in any case. Yes, some parts of the agency are focused on Counter terrorism, but that does not mean that they have a presence in every single neighborhood in Pakistan, nor has the ISI every tried to convey that image. If anything, the responsibility to track down OBL domestically should have been the responsibility of the IB, which falls under the interior ministry and Rehman Malik.

You are making some very subjective assertions.

...or you know somethings we don't.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

You are making some very subjective assertions.

...or you know somethings we don't.

There is nothing subjective about it, these are the facts, and if even if you have layman knowledge of the ISI, its intended purpose and functions, the above should be clear to you. The ISI has always been a primarily foreign focused intelligence agency, even when it was dabbling in domestic politics. Its domestic role currently is primarily one of counter-terrorism, a role that should in fact be one led by the civilian intelligence bureau, which is a domestic intelligence agency.

The ISI was never designed to have a 'presence in every neighborhood' nor does the military have the resources or manpower to have a 'presence in every neighborhood' - That is what local cops and the Federal and provincial intelligence agencies are for, but those are typically too politicized and corrupt to be effective.

 

[The HBS Guy]

There is nothing subjective about it, these are the facts, and if even if you have layman knowledge of the ISI, its intended purpose and functions, the above should be clear to you. The ISI has always been a primarily foreign focused intelligence agency, even when it was dabbling in domestic politics. Its domestic role currently is primarily one of counter-terrorism, a role that should in fact be one led by the civilian intelligence bureau, which is a domestic intelligence agency.

The ISI was never designed to have a 'presence in every neighborhood' nor does the military have the resources or manpower to have a 'presence in every neighborhood' - That is what local cops and the Federal and provincial intelligence agencies are for, but those are typically too politicized and corrupt to be effective.

On one hand you're saying that ISI is primarily a foreign intelligence gathering agency. On the other hand you accept the fact that WoT is being played out in Pakistan and that Pakistan is currently a major theater for other agencies like CIA and RAW.

Don't you think you're contradicting yourself?

 

[iPhone]

About Time mag, I personally think ISI personnel should stop giving them interviews. Even politicians, too but that's probably asking too much from this dignity devoid lot. The recent issue which infamously has Pakistan on the cover and the dreaded headline, "why we are stuck with Pakistan" is enough to tell what to expect inside. The ripping and shredding they give to ISI, is mudslinging to a new level......and meanwhile quoting the officials and even giving them credit for answering their emails is laughable, too. Next time, tell em to shove it when they contact you for an interview.

 

[VCheng]

hmmm i dont know how they probed that but since one of my fellows is from a region who's most of the people are said to be on the list and (BTW he is from the strong hold of BLA terrorists) and according to him mostly are picked up by the militants.

and i attended a seminar last year arranged by some NGOs who are vocal for missing persons that was also attended by relatives of dozens missing people and when they narrated their stories and the funniest was of those who said "hamara bhai bakryan charanay gaya tha phir wapis nai aya" and they were from Kohistan.

Some were genuine cases but interestingly those were linked to Atom Energy Commission and hence they must have been some involvement in some serious offense.

one case was of a serving army officer .

so i doubt the list but anyway lets what the court does

My point is that all effective probes into this grave misuse of power and miscarriage of justice have been stopped with the connivance of the CJ, the ISI/military and the politicians.

May be those who have gone missing deserved it, may be they did not, but a system that can be so callous with its own people in this manner without any accountability, does not have a lot of credibility when it raises a hue and cry about incidences like Aafia or Raymond Davis, but merely helps perpetuate the "culture of impunity" that has brought Pakistan to state it finds itself in presently. Further, the desire to mantain the status quo creates the kind of spineless servitude, as mentioned by Gen Pasha, that rankles patriots the most, including me.

 

[Mo12]

The words that is being said by ISI chief, are words of defining moments, preparing for a big battle to start, hope it doesnt get more nasty.

 

[53fd]

You are making some very subjective assertions.

...or you know somethings we don't.

Unfortunately, Indians don't really have any clue when they're speaking about the ISI. There are three intelligence agencies inside Pakistan that serve different purposes: the Intelligence Bureau (IB) is responsible for domestic intelligence gathering, the ISI is responsible primarily for foreign intelligence gathering, & the there is the Military Intelligence (MI), which is a Pakistan Defence Forces intelligence agency and that is responsible for the military intelligence services in Pakistan. It is also refers specifically to the intelligence components of the Pakistan Armed Forces. MI conducts operations, identifying and eliminating sleeper cells, foreign agents and other anti-Pakistani elements within Pakistan.

The ISI is under the jurisdiction of the government of Pakistan, as is the IB. The MI is not under the jurisdiction of the Pakistani government, but under the Pakistan Defense Forces.

 

[53fd]

On one hand you're saying that ISI is primarily a foreign intelligence gathering agency. On the other hand you accept the fact that WoT is being played out in Pakistan and that Pakistan is currently a major theater for other agencies like CIA and RAW.

Don't you think you're contradicting yourself?

There is no contradiction in what he is saying, you're the one that's confused. Let me explain: the ISI falls under the jurisdiction of the Pakistani government, not the Armed Forces. It's the MI that falls under the jurisdiction of the Pakistan Defense Forces.

Anyways, the ISI is the biggest & most powerful of the three intelligence agencies (ISI, IB, MI). When Musharraf was in power as the President of Pakistan (in the government), he was accused of using the ISI for domestic intelligence gathering & other things, when it was not the responsibility of the ISI to do so (it's job is to look at foreign intelligence gathering. It is the responsibility of the IB to collect domestic intelligence, but it's not as powerful as the ISI). Notice that both the IB & the ISI fall under the jurisdiction of the government of Pakistan, & there is collaboration between the two agencies, hence such accusations are not uncommon. The previous governments of Pakistan have been accused of exploiting the resources of the ISI like this in the past. I hope that clears up your queries.

 

[53fd]

There is nothing subjective about it, these are the facts, and if even if you have layman knowledge of the ISI, its intended purpose and functions, the above should be clear to you. The ISI has always been a primarily foreign focused intelligence agency, even when it was dabbling in domestic politics. Its domestic role currently is primarily one of counter-terrorism, a role that should in fact be one led by the civilian intelligence bureau, which is a domestic intelligence agency.

The ISI was never designed to have a 'presence in every neighborhood' nor does the military have the resources or manpower to have a 'presence in every neighborhood' - That is what local cops and the Federal and provincial intelligence agencies are for, but those are typically too politicized and corrupt to be effective.

The last time I remember, it was Hussain Haqqani that gave 7092 Visas to Americans without doing any background checks on them. I don't believe Hussain Haqqani is in the Army, or influenced by it when he makes his decisions.

 

[S-2]

"...There are three intelligence agencies inside Pakistan that serve different purposes: the Intelligence Bureau (IB) is responsible for domestic intelligence gathering, the ISI is responsible primarily for foreign intelligence gathering, & the there is the Military Intelligence (MI), which is a Pakistan Defence Forces intelligence agency and that is responsible for the military intelligence services in Pakistan. It is also refers specifically to the intelligence components of the Pakistan Armed Forces. MI conducts operations, identifying and eliminating sleeper cells, foreign agents and other anti-Pakistani elements within Pakistan."

So...help this poor ferenghi out-

1. Does the IB turn over information, evidence and intelligence involving "...sleeper cells, foreign agents and other anti-Pakistani elements within Pakistan..." to the MI for prosecution or your law-enforcement agencies and judicial courts?

2. What happens when the IB or law enforcement officials find themselves following criminal activities within Pakistan conducted by possible locally-based proxy assets of ISI foreign intelligence operations? How is that conflict of responsibility resolved? Or, more to the point, whom takes precedent in those matters?

An example might be the allegations of rapes/murders within FATAville in January 2010 by senior members of the Haqqani network.

Now, perhaps you don't believe the Haqqani network exists within Pakistan. Perhaps you do but don't believe this network has any relationship with the ISI or elements within the ISI as a retained proxy force against Afghanistan. Perhaps you agree with both former assertions but don't believe these alleged rapes and murders occurred.

Still, who would lead such an investigation and upon whose desk would decisions to prosecute ultimately fall?

Thanks.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Bin Laden was a US prisoner before being killed: Ahmadinejad
Bin Laden was a US prisoner before being killed: Ahmadinejad | World | DAWN.COM

So was it all a drama
1. CIA knew about his hideout , months ago
2. Osama had no body gaurds
3. He had no scape route
4. He was living in military area

He must be kept by some one for the election day or populated increase and that's why Bush is not happy as he was his trophy.

Is every one doing a drama US , GOP plus ISI to give US a escape route plus US being hard on Pakistan will keep India at bay

 

[SparklingCrescent]

[/B]
That should pretty much settle the issue if where the responsibility, for allowing drone strikes to continue, lies.

Hussain Haqqani (Ambassador to the US), Fauzia Wahab, Zardari, Rehman Malik, Zulfiqar Mirza ....

 

[53fd]

So...help this poor ferenghi out-

1. Does the IB turn over information, evidence and intelligence involving "...sleeper cells, foreign agents and other anti-Pakistani elements within Pakistan..." to the MI for prosecution or your law-enforcement agencies and judicial courts?

The IB is an independent intelligence gathering body, there are collaborations between the IB & ISI (even though they serve different purposes), as both are under the jurisdiction of the government of Pakistan. Maybe I should have been clearer before: the IB gathers non-military domestic intelligence inside Pakistan. The ISI is a non-military intelligence gathering agency as well, & it gathers foreign non-military intelligence. To answer your question, no, the IB does not give intelligence to the MI, as they are under different jurisdictions (IB is under the Pakistan government, MI under the Pakistan Defense Forces), & function independently; & one gathers non-military intelligence, the other gathers military intelligence.

2. What happens when the IB or law enforcement officials find themselves following criminal activities within Pakistan conducted by possible locally-based proxy assets of ISI foreign intelligence operations? How is that conflict of responsibility resolved? Or, more to the point, whom takes precedent in those matters?

An example might be the allegations of rapes/murders within FATAville in January 2010 by senior members of the Haqqani network.

As both the ISI & IB fall under the jurisdiction of the government of Pakistan, it is their responsibility to resolve the issue. And no link has been established that Pakistan actually supports the Haqqani network, just that it hasn't taken action against it. Big difference.

Now, perhaps you don't believe the Haqqani network exists within Pakistan.

It exists, as does the Quetta Shoora.

Perhaps you do but don't believe this network has any relationship with the ISI or elements within the ISI as a retained proxy force against Afghanistan. Perhaps you agree with both former assertions but don't believe these alleged rapes and murders occurred.

It doesn't matter what I believe, all that matters is conclusive evidence implicating the ISI or any other agency of being terrorist organizations of harboring terrorists as per its policy (this doesn't include these agencies being infiltrated by enemy elements). That clearly hasn't happened, & even the OBL incident doesn't indict the ISI, Pakistan Army or the Pakistan government.

Still, who would lead such an investigation and upon whose desk would decisions to prosecute ultimately fall?

Thanks.

The judiciary would ask for a special investigation team to be formed to verify whether the allegations against the IB/ISI (that fall under the jurisdiction of the Pakistan government) are correct or not, & then the Supreme Court will decide what actions need to be taken, & who needs to be punished.

 

[Gin ka Pakistan]

Quite frankly, the whole bit about 'Army controlling the GoP' has been exposed here for what it is, deceit and lies by the politicians and their apologists to place the blame for unpopular policies by the GoP (accepting US aid, accepting US drone strikes, accepting CIA operations on Pakistani soil) onto the Army.

Has any body taken a notice that US is not blaming Pakistani President for any wrong doings plus his team while its the Army and ISI being grilled