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Southern Han Chinese and their relationship with the Baiyue

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I have all along suggest "y chromosome" genetist migration theory and anthropological theory could have need further reconciliation. I think I have made myself clear enough.

If you cite O3 Y chromosome, do it all the way, and conclusion is Chinese come from SE Asian, as most leading Y chromosome expert propose. So the similarity of Northern and Southern Chinese Y chromosome could be due to people from South moving North.

Y-Chromosome Evidence for a Northward Migration of Modern Humans into Eastern Asia during the Last Ice Age

Investigative Genetics | Full text | Inferring human history in East Asia from Y chromosomes

PLOS ONE: Human Migration through Bottlenecks from Southeast Asia into East Asia during Last Glacial Maximum Revealed by Y Chromosomes .

Thanks for citing those papers. The first 1999 paper is the key, the famous root of “South-to-North migration” theory.

However, all of these papers admit that: it’s still “controversial”, “been debating for debates”, this is only “1 out of total 3 models”... This shows that it is a proposed model, but not conclusive and generally accepted fact yet.

Any model, this one included, could be wrong because it is inevitably based on 1. some assumptions , and 2. Data, both of which could be wrong or inaccurate.

One of the leading assumption of this “South-to-north” model is “Out of Africa”which in itself is again another very controversial model (against “multi-origin-model”) . Moreover, many problems could arise in its data, which is based on 1) EXISTING anthropology discoveries and 2) different ways/models of how to interpretate and calculate Y-Chromosome age, for instance, as they admit in those papers.

So there you have it, even I respect your opinion and position on this model, the model is NOT conclusive yet as you can see.

Moreover, as I explained earlier that this model has a huge loophole that it can not and dare not explain, due to the their PC stance that IQ doesn’t exist and everyone is the same – just another hidden political assumption in their essays.

So, if you believes there is a thing called IQ, then IQ theory blows this model off the balance, namely:

How can a non-cold-selected group from the South low altitude regions have about 105 avg IQ? It’s non-existent in the world’s history, let alone East Asia.

IQ theory dictates that if a group has avg IQ of >100, then its origin must be from the Northern high altitude regions (if “out of Africa”, then their ancestors must first migrated there thru the Northern route. If “multi-origin”, then their ancestors were there in the first place).

Above is the whole logic.

In practice, I am struggling to find ANY major south-origin ethnic group successfully conquered a major North-origin ethnic group for territory-control in history. Won battles? Perhaps occasionally yes. If the Northern group is uninterested in flighting? Maybe. But when the two go eye-to-eye with all their powers, the north one wins in the end, always.

History shows that high altitude-based higher IQ groups have overwhelming chances of winning if going full strength against low altitude-based lower IQ groups:

-- Europe: Southern Greeks/Romans were ultimately conquered by the Northern Germanic groups.

-- Indian subcontinent: it was conquered always by northern invaders being Aryans, Turks, Persians, Mongols or the Brits. Always! Never heard of Southern Dravidians successfully conquered their Northern neighbour say China or Arabia or even Afghanistan.

-- China: If China the only one? China lost twice in history, both to further-Northern groups: Mongols and Manchus, never to , say, Baiyue from the South or Pinoys or Indonesians from the SE Asia. The cradle of Chinese civilisation is in the Northern China after all called Yellow River, not Pearl Delta River in Guangdong, which would have been the case logically if “South-to-North” were true, wouldn’t it? Higher IQ Southern Cantonese (and/or higher IQ SE Asians) would have easily overrun lower IQ Northern Barbarians from the Yellow River and brought Chinese, or Pinoy, Civilisation to them instead. :hitwall: Baiyue in history could then have been the name for indigenous people of the Northern China instead of the Southern…etc etc :D



IQ shows nothing about ancestry. Today, the high IQ centers of China are Shanghai, Guangdong, Taiwan and HK are all former barbarian land. The Yellow river plains and Xi-an, cradle of Han civilization are now low IQ, poor people receiving state aid.
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Gee, surely you are stubborn. :lol:

Many reasons for that, but why those ancient capitals of Han Chinese civilisation were based in the Northern China, not Taiwan, or Shanghai, or HK, or any place in the South after all, if the South were the original starting base for the Han Chinese?

BTW, I visited your blog several times. Good stuff! :tup:
 
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The Min Nan are closest to old Chinese for your info. The lect we speak are very close to Chinese classics which is considered elegant by some Chinese language expert.

From hudong baike

闽南方言保留下来的古汉语较多,因此被学术界称为“语言的活化石”。闽南方言历来为国内外语言学家所重视。 这对汉语古音的构拟,古籍的训释,汉语史的研究都具有重要的意义。

I am perfectly aware of the importance of Minnan dialect and its preservation of old Chinese. However, some poems may rhyme better in Minnan dialect, while others may not. This only shows that language is very complicated and Minnan might have preserved certain aspect of old Chinese, but I am doubtful that Minnan can be claimed as closest to old Chinese. Plus, what you mean by old Chinese? in linguistics, old Chinese are further classified as either 上古汉语,中古汉语 ,近古汉语。
 
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Oh, come on. Our people should not push that our anscestor inject any genes into VN people. VN people has the honor to claim that they have the specific proud gene.

We should not discuss the gene lead to high IQ or good looking. Lets talk not in a racist way.

There are so many VN bribes in China now, some of our descendants may have some the special VN genes though they are still Chinese.

I think that we are not biologist so talk it in a history way is more reasonable and thats not off topic too.
 
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Oh, come on. Our people should not push that our anscestor inject any genes into VN people. VN people has the honor to claim that they have the specific proud gene.
We should not discuss the gene lead to high IQ or good looking. Lets talk not in a racist way.
There are so many VN bribes in China now, some of our descendants may have some the special VN genes though they are still Chinese.

The only good looking Viet is the one that got genetically modified by the superior Huaxia gene.

For example, the second girl in the right of the pic, while you can imagine how a purebred Viet would look like.

YxfINVO.jpg
 
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Thanks for citing those papers. The first 1999 paper is the key, the famous root of “South-to-North migration” theory.

However, all of these papers admit that: it’s still “controversial”, “been debating for debates”, this is only “1 out of total 3 models”... This shows that it is a proposed model, but not conclusive and generally accepted fact yet.

Any model, this one included, could be wrong because it is inevitably based on 1. some assumptions , and 2. Data, both of which could be wrong or inaccurate.

One of the leading assumption of this “South-to-north” model is “Out of Africa”which in itself is again another still controversial model against “multi-origin-model”. Moreover, many problems could be arise in its data, which is based on 1) EXISTING anthropology discoveries and 2) different way of how to interpreter and calculate Y-Chromosome age, for instance, as they admit in those papers.

So there you have it, even I respect your opinion and position on this model, the model is NOT conclusive yet as you can see.

Moreover, as I explained earlier that this model has a huge loophole that it can not and dare not explain, due to the their PC stance that IQ doesn’t exist and everyone is the same – just another hidden political assumption in their essays.

So, if you believes there is a thing called IQ, then IQ theory blows this model off the balance, namely:

How can a non-cold-selected group from the South low altitude regions have about 105 avg IQ? It’s non-existent in the world’s history, let alone East Asia.

IQ theory dictates that if a group has avg IQ of >100, then its origin must be from the Northern high altitude regions (if “out of Africa”, then their ancestors must first migrated there thru the Northern route. If “multi-origin”, then their ancestors were there in the first place).

Above is the whole logic.

In practice, I am struggling to find ANY major south-origin ethnic group successfully conquered a major North-origin ethnic group for territory-control. Won battles? Perhaps occasionally yes. If the Northern group is uninterested in flighting? Maybe. But when the two go eye-to-eye with all their powers, the north wins in the end, always.

History shows that high altitude-based high IQ groups have overwhelming chances of winning if going full strength against low altitude-based lower IQ groups:

-- Europe: Southern Greeks/Romans were ultimately conquered by the Northern Germanic groups.

-- Indian subcontinent: it was conquered always by northern invaders being Aryans, Turks, Persians, Mongols or the Brits. Always! Never heard of Southern Dravidians successfully conquered their Northern neighbour say China or Arabia or even Afghanistan.

-- China: If China the only one? China lost twice in history, both to further-Northern groups: Mongols and Manchus, never to , say, Baiyue from the South or Pinoys or Indonesians from the SE Asia. The cradle of Chinese civilisation is in the Northern China after all called Yellow River, not Pearl Delta River in Guangdong, which would have been the case logically if “South-to-North” were true, wouldn’t it? Higher IQ Southern Cantonese (and/or higher IQ SE Asians) would have easily overrun low IQ Northern Barbarians from the Yellow River and brought Chinese Civilisation to them instead. :hitwall: Baiyue in history could then have been the name for indigenous people of the Northern China instead of the Southern… :D





Gee, surely you are stubborn. :lol:

Many reasons for that, but why those ancient capitals of Han Chinese civilisation were based in the Northern China, not Taiwan, or Shanghai, or HK, or any place in the South after all, if the South were the original starting base for the Han Chinese?

BTW, I visited your blog several times. Good stuff! :tup:

I found genetist South to North theory puzzling as well, and more research are needed.

Actually Northern China was lost many times, like North South Dynasty, and Jin. If we take Beijing as example it was lost since Shi Jingtang ceded it to Liao, briefly back in Ming. I really wonder why so few C Y-chromosome.

The Sui-Tang elites are very xianbei. You got all kinds of surname like Yuwen 宇文, Dugu 独孤, Wei-Chi wei 尉迟, Zhangsun 长孙...etc. Chen Yinke 陈寅恪 works shows that Tang was very nomads in composition. We know during the North South Dynasty, there is large influx of nomads.

Your suggestion that high IQ always win could be sort of conditional in my opinion. While Han Chinese have higher IQ, there are a lot of inherent corrupted moral in a lot of our people. The lower IQ nomads are able to exploit this and overwhelm Han Chinese.

There are a lot of internal exhaustion within Han Chinese race.
 
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China has long history of migrant. You can test wether are you a really descendant of Yanhuang.

在炎黄子孙身上至少有另外三项区别于世界其他人种的外在特点或特征——
一、铲形门齿。上颌两颗门齿的两边缘翻卷成棱,中间低凹,活象一把铲子。我们的“炎黄子孙”们98%以上的人是这种门齿,而白种人和黑人生就这种门齿的只占8.2%和10.8%。即便其他亚洲黄种人有这种门齿的也仅占30%左右。
二、眼内眦褶。眼的内角处,由上眼睑微微下伸,遮掩泪阜而呈一小小皮褶,即现在我们常说的“蒙古褶”。我国绝大部分人都有这种褶,而所有外国的其他人种极少会有这种褶。
三、屁股青斑。这是最不可思议、不好理解的特点特征。“炎黄子孙”的新生婴儿,在屁股的骶部(绝大多数是)或其他部位(一般在背部),必有淡灰色或青灰色的斑块,通常至一、两岁方能退去。这一特点特征,在其他黄种人新生婴儿中很少有,在白人和黑人的新生婴儿中几乎没有。

Google translate
Chinese people who have at least three other external features or characteristics distinct from other races of the world - A spade incisors. The two edges of the maxillary incisors rolled into two edges, middle low-lying, resembled a shovel. Our "Chinese people" who are more than 98% of the people of this incisors, while whites and blacks gifted with such incisors only 8.2% and 10.8%. Even other Asian people have this yellow incisors is also only about 30%. Second, the Mongoloid fold the eye. Inside corner of the eye, extending from the upper eyelid down slightly, cover and showed a small tear Fu skinfold, now we often say, "Mongolian fold." The vast majority of people in this country have

I think that is the so called gene.
 
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Sorry, I have no concrete data for that. Not too sure if you guys are higher IQ than HK or Taiwan. Maybe you think you guys that are pretty smarter.

Yes, please count Singapore in, and you satisfied now.

What I really hate about you guys is that you are pussy and you flatter westerners but being cruel to your own race, that's why China was defeated twice in history. China was defeated by itself.

@Hu Songshan please do something
 
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Yes, please count Singapore in, and you satisfied now.

What I really hate about you guys is that you are pussy and you flatter westerners but being cruel to your own race, that's why China was defeated twice in history. China was defeated by itself.

@Hu Songshan please do something

He is a Malay, he self-claimed that he doesn't look like a Chinese in the eyes of Mainland Chinese.

So you can imagine that this Malay guy must have some kind of grudge against the Huaxia civilization as he keeps insulting the North China, the original homeland of Huaxia.
 
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I am perfectly aware of the importance of Minnan dialect and its preservation of old Chinese. However, some poems may rhyme better in Minnan dialect, while others may not. This only shows that language is very complicated and Minnan might have preserved certain aspect of old Chinese, but I am doubtful that Minnan can be claimed as closest to old Chinese. Plus, what you mean by old Chinese? in linguistics, old Chinese are further classified as either 上古汉语,中古汉语 ,近古汉语。

Min Nan/ Taiwanese is the direct descendant of old Chinese while Mandarin and Cantonese gone through the middle Chinese phase.

We preserve a lot of Chinese classics.

不知道 - 毋知也
你 - 汝
筷子 - 箸
锅 - 鼎
不需要 - 免
眼睛 - 目

Yes, please count Singapore in, and you satisfied now.

What I really hate about you guys is that you are pussy and you flatter westerners but being cruel to your own race, that's why China was defeated twice in history. China was defeated by itself.

@Hu Songshan please do something

I receive a lot of challenges from PRCs that will never reason with logic and I am quite tired with such war. Many PRCs here resort to insult once their inferior logic got rebuttal.

He is a Malay, he self-claimed that he doesn't look like a Chinese in the eyes of Mainland Chinese.

So you can imagine that this Malay guy must have some kind of grudge against the Huaxia civilization as he keeps insulting the North China, the original homeland of Huaxia.
 
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I found genetist South to North theory puzzling as well, and more research are needed.

Actually Northern China was lost many times, like North South Dynasty, and Jin. If we take Beijing as example it was lost since Shi Jingtang ceded it to Liao, briefly back in Ming. I really wonder why so few C Y-chromosome.

The Sui-Tang elites are very xianbei. You got all kinds of surname like Yuwen 宇文, Dugu 独孤, Wei-Chi wei 尉迟, Zhangsun 长孙...etc. Chen Yinke 陈寅恪 works shows that Tang was very nomads in composition. We know during the North South Dynasty, there is large influx of nomads.
Name one time when nomads outnumbered the native Han Chinese in Northern China

You do realize even if the Sui-Tang emperors had Xianbei mothers they still claim descent from Han Chinese,even the Turkiphile Tang prince was ostracized because of his behavior.

You are a Malay with an ax to grind trying to distort the origins of Northern Han Chinese.

I can show you revised census studies that show despite drastic population drop of the Three Kingdoms minorities were still outnumbered.
 
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He is a Malay, he self-claimed that he doesn't look like a Chinese in the eyes of Mainland Chinese.

So you can imagine that this Malay guy must have some kind of grudge against the Huaxia civilization as he keeps insulting the North China, the original homeland of Huaxia.

Very true. He is never Chinese, also including those Taiwanese. They are western lickers. The truth is China is getting richer, so they start to admit themselves as Chinese race, like this Singaporean. What if China is as poor as beggar? I'm sure they will find any excuse to exclude themselves from any relations with China.
 
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Name one time when nomads outnumbered the native Han Chinese in Northern China

You do realize even if the Sui-Tang emperors had Xianbei mothers they still claim descent from Han Chinese,even the Turkiphile Tang prince was ostracized because of his behavior.

You are a Malay with an ax to grind trying to distort the origins of Northern Han Chinese.

I can show you revised census studies that show despite drastic population drop of the Three Kingdoms minorities were still outnumbered.

There is one guy here who claim the vanquished murdered the inhabitants. I am to contradict him.

Cool down. Discuss logically.
 
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I receive a lot of challenges from PRCs that will never reason with logic and I am quite tired with such war. Many PRCs here resort to insult once their inferior logic got rebuttal.

Please? I beg your pardon, now I become the one insulting you? That's your superior logic?
 
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Very true. He is never Chinese, also including those Taiwanese. They are western lickers. The truth is China is getting richer, so they start to admit themselves as Chinese race, like this Singaporean. What if China is as poor as beggar? I'm sure they will find any excuse to exclude themselves from any relations with China.

Only those Taiwanese and HKers who are loyal to PRC are our brothers and sisters.

The bananas can get lost, we won't give a damn about those rootless people.
 
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