South China Sea Forum

[Wholegrain]

Rubbish, the Ming sent reinforcement from China with 100,000 men and these third-rated historians are saying otherwise? Read Mingshi please

You're the biggest troll on this forum.


Other than quoting from third-rated historian who even made up an ethnicity called "Trai", what other sources do you provide? I find it hilarious that you avoid quoting the contemporary/primary sources like Dai Viet Su Ky Toan Thu or even your Ming shi LOL

I said most who got killed, not captured, Le Loi killed mostly Kinh people in his war.

Trai is the same as Muong people. Tana Li said Le Loi and his men were a Muong or Lao, and Taylor wrote an arricle on Le Loi being Muong, "Nguoi Trai" means people of the Camps, they were Muong people who lived at the border unlike "Nguoi Kinh" people of the capital. Kinh people called Muong "Barbarians" because of their lifestyle, which is why they were also called Camp people.

 

[ViXuyen]

I said most who got killed, not captured, Le Loi killed mostly Kinh people in his war.

Is that what you got from Mingshi? LOL. Stop making up history, you troll. Vietnamese fought for the Ming China? Sure, Mr. Troll. I even busted all of the Western historians that you quoted for making up lie about an ethnicity called "Trai".

The Ming sent 100k reinforment to fight Le Loi. The Ming sent their best military man 柳升 to Annam and he lost his head (literally). 100k Ming troops surrendered including their Supreme commander 王通. the Ming suffered utterly humiliation that was written by even Ming shi. What are you trying to hide?

I said most who got killed, not captured, Le Loi killed mostly Kinh people in his war.

Trai is the same as Muong people. Tana Li said Le Loi and his men were a Muong or Lao, and Taylor wrote an arricle on Le Loi being Muong, "Nguoi Trai" means people of the Camps, they were Muong people who lived at the border unlike "Nguoi Kinh" people of the capital. Kinh people called Muong "Barbarians" because of their lifestyle, which is why they were also called Camp people.

Show me which Vietnamese sources have the word "Trai" people?

 

[Wholegrain]

Is that what you got from Mingshi? LOL. Stop making up history, you troll. Vietnamese fought for the Ming China? Sure, Mr. Troll. I even busted all of the Western historians that you quoted for making up lie about an ethnicity called "Trai".

The Ming sent 100k reinforment to fight Le Loi. The Ming sent their best military man 柳升 to Annam and he lost his head (literally). 100k Ming troops surrendered including their Supreme commander 王通. the Ming suffered utterly humiliation that was written by even Ming shi. What are you trying to hide?

Trai is the same as Muong people. Tana Li said Le Loi and his men were a Muong or Lao, and Taylor wrote an arricle on Le Loi being Muong, "Nguoi Trai" means people of the Camps, they were Muong and oth minority people who lived at the border unlike "Nguoi Kinh" people of the capital. Kinh people called Muong and other bordereles as "Barbarians" because of their lifestyle, which is why they were also called Camp people.

Tana Li even gave primary sources about Le Loi's ethnicity in the footnotes, including Ming sources, did you even read?

http://www.researchgate.net/profile..._the_15th_century/file/60b7d51df84438389a.pdf

You are the one who made up history, you claimed Bac le ambush was done by Vietnamese LOL.

Taiwan fisherman shot dead by Filipino military | Page 37

 

[ViXuyen]

Trai is the same as Muong people. Tana Li said Le Loi and his men were a Muong or Lao, and Taylor wrote an arricle on Le Loi being Muong, "Nguoi Trai" means people of the Camps, they were Muong and oth minority people who lived at the border unlike "Nguoi Kinh" people of the capital. Kinh people called Muong and other bordereles as "Barbarians" because of their lifestyle, which is why they were also called Camp people.

Tana Li even gave primary sources about Le Loi's ethnicity in the footnotes, including Ming sources, did you even read?

http://www.researchgate.net/profile..._the_15th_century/file/60b7d51df84438389a.pdf

You are the one who made up history, you claimed Bac le ambush was done by Vietnamese LOL.

Taiwan fisherman shot dead by Filipino military | Page 37

There is no Trai people mentioned in Viet history, stop making up a claim and use who knows what sources as your "backup". Viet history mentioned he might be a Muong, but nowhere there is the word "Trai". His army was about 200k men and the population of the Muong at that time could not even number 200k and you have historians claiming that most of his army was ethnic Muong? I busted you and your historians for lying again.

Remember, I busted your *** for making up "fact" that Bac Le was a Chinese ambush? I busted your *** for making up history that China militarily defeated French in Northern Vietnam, remember? LOL

 

[Wholegrain]

Is that what you got from Mingshi? LOL. Stop making up history, you troll. Vietnamese fought for the Ming China? Sure, Mr. Troll. I even busted all of the Western historians that you quoted for making up lie about an ethnicity called "Trai".

The Ming sent 100k reinforment to fight Le Loi. The Ming sent their best military man 柳升 to Annam and he lost his head (literally). 100k Ming troops surrendered including their Supreme commander 王通. the Ming suffered utterly humiliation that was written by even Ming shi. What are you trying to hide?


Show me which Vietnamese sources have the word "Trai" people?

The Tran dynasty called people who lived in Nghe An and Thanh hoa as Trai. Go look at the bibloigraphy in his book, he names the sources he use, both Vietnamese and Chihese.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

 

[Fattyacids]

The Tran dynasty called people who lived in Nghe An and Thanh hoa as Trai. Go look at the bibloigraphy in his book, he names the sources he use, both Vietnamese and Chihese.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Your mentioning of US special envoy martin was brilliant.

 

[ViXuyen]

The Tran dynasty called people who lived in Nghe An and Thanh hoa as Trai. Go look at the bibloigraphy in his book, he names the sources he use, both Vietnamese and Chihese.

A History of the Vietnamese - K. W. Taylor - Google Books

Keith Taylor? Is this the guy who claims that Le Loi was a "Trai" ? LOL

No Viet history books mention the word "Trai" my friend. Taylor's credibility or knowledge is already questionable with this kind of claim. Even comptemporary Viet primary sources are not sure if Le Loi was an ethnic Muong and yet Taylor a joe blow historian declares Le Loi was ethnic Muong. Not only that, this joe blow historian even declares Le Loi army was made up of mostly ethnic Muong. Heck, even contemporary Viet sources do not mention anything about the made up of Le Loi's army ethnicities, yet your joe blow historians are telling me that they got access to the listing of all the names of those 200k men in Le Loi army? LOL

Ming China got humiliated by the Le Dynasty and it is well documented by Mingshi, what are you trying to hide? LOL

 

[Wholegrain]

There is no Trai people mentioned in Viet history, stop making up a claim and use who knows what sources as your "backup". Viet history mentioned he might be a Muong, but nowhere there is the word "Trai". His army was about 200k men and the population of the Muong at that time could not even number 200k and you have historians claiming that most of his army was ethnic Muong? I busted you and your historians for lying again.

Remember, I busted your *** for making up "fact" that Bac Le was a Chinese ambush? I busted your *** for making up history that China militarily defeated French in Northern Vietnam, remember? LOL

I urge everyone to look at the thread. ViXuyen did not even provide a Vietnamese source to claim Bac Le was done by Vietnamese. In fact she provided zero sources in total for any of the claims she made on that thread. @Grand Historian I remember your quote about "no sources". I provided sources by western historians with degrees from western universities. The Battle of Bang Bo and Retreat from Lang Son was a Chinese victory, and that was the end of the war in Northern Vietnam.

Even Vietnamese wikipedia couldn't full out lie, so they twisted the facts a little and added Vietnamese forces alongside the Chinese as participants in the ambush.

http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trận_Bắc_Lệ

Keith Taylor? Is this the guy who claims that Le Loi was a "Trai" ? LOL

No Viet history books mention the word "Trai" my friend. Taylor's credibility or knowledge is already questionable with this kind of claim. Even comptemporary Viet primary sources are not sure if Le Loi was an ethnic Muong and yet Taylor a joe blow historian declares Le Loi was ethnic Muong. Not only that, this joe blow historian even declares Le Loi army was made up of mostly ethnic Muong. Heck, even contemporary Viet sources do not mention anything about the made up of Le Loi's army ethnicities, yet your joe blow historians are telling me that they got access to the listing of all the names of those 200k men in Le Loi army? LOL

Ming China got humiliated by the Le Dynasty and it is well documented by Mingshi, what are you trying to hide? LOL

Most of Le Loi's army was from Thanh Hoa, and most of Thanh hoa at the time was populated by minorities like the Muong, since it was a border province of Dai Viet.

Look at page 95 again, Le Loi's top followers all had names that meant sometihng derogatory or were insults, because they tried to transcribed their names from their native languages into Han Nom.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile..._the_15th_century/file/60b7d51df84438389a.pdf

 

[Grand Historian]

I urge everyone to look at the thread. ViXuyen did not even provide a Vietnamese source to claim Bac Le was done by Vietnamese. In fact she provided zero sources in total. @Grand Historian I remember your quote about "no sources". I provided sources by western historians with degrees from western universities.

Exactly that 's what I appreciate what you doing,you are also quoting third party sources ie Western Historians who would be less influenced by either Chinese or Vietnamese nationalism.

The Vietnamese on PDFclaim a lot of things yet they usually rely on Wikipedia or their own delusions.

 

[ViXuyen]

I urge everyone to look at the thread. ViXuyen did not even provide a Vietnamese source to claim Bac Le was done by Vietnamese. In fact she provided zero sources in total. @Grand Historian I remember your quote about "no sources". I provided sources by western historians with degrees from western universities.

Even Vietnamese wikipedia couldn't full out lie, so they twisted the facts a little and added Vietnamese forces alongside the Chinese as participants in the ambush.

http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trận_Bắc_Lệ



Most of Le Loi's army was from Thanh Hoa, and most of Thanh hoa at the time was populated by minorities like the Muong, since it was a border province of Dai Viet.

Did you edit that and add Chinese forces along with Vietnamese forces? Didn't I bust u for making up fact that the Chinese troops "crushed" the French in Tonkin?

You make up fact again. The border of Dai Viet expanded to Quang Nam province at the time of Le Loi. This province was populated by the ethnic Kinh since the 10th century. Thanh Hoa was barely populated, let alone having 200k people. Le Loi army was 200k to even 350k; I busted your historians for lying about the army of Le Loi was ethnic Muong majority. Ming China got defeated badly even with 100k reinforcement from China

Are you working with those joe blow historians to rewrite history?

 

[Grand Historian]

Are you working with those joe blow historians to rewrite history?

Keith Weller Taylor has much more credibility then a random forum user such as you.

What a hypocrite,you,EastSea and Rechoice are always whining about lost Baiyue land and how Southern Han should embrace you as brothers.

 

[Wholegrain]

Did you edit that and add Chinese forces along with Vietnamese forces? Didn't I bust u for making up fact that the Chinese troops "crushed" the French in Tonkin?

You make up fact again. The border of Dai Viet expanded to Quang Nam province at the time of Le Loi. This province was populated by the ethnic Kinh since the 10th century. Thanh Hoa was barely populated, let alone having 200k people. Le Loi army was 200k to even 350k; I busted your historians for lying about the army of Le Loi was ethnic Muong majority. Ming China got defeated badly even with 100k reinforcement from China

Are you working with those joe blow historians to rewrite history?

The article was written in 2009 by a Vietnamese, and right from the start it said that Qing forces were involved.

http://vi.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Trận_Bắc_Lệ&dir=prev&action=history

http://vi.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Trận_Bắc_Lệ&oldid=1985880

Thanh Hoa borders LAOS, (Lan Xang at the time of Le Loi) Tana Li even said that Le Loi was Lao if he was not a Muong. It was a border province.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile..._the_15th_century/file/60b7d51df84438389a.pdf

 

[ViXuyen]

Exactly that 's what I appreciate what you doing,you are also quoting third party sources ie Western Historians who would be less influenced by either Chinese or Vietnamese nationalism.

The Vietnamese on PDFclaim a lot of things yet they usually rely on Wikipedia or their own delusions.

Western historian

Keith Weller Taylor has much more credibility then a random forum user such as you.

What a hypocrite,you,EastSea and Rechoice are always whining about lost Baiyue land and how Southern Han should embrace you as brothers.

Taylor has more credibility than me because of what? Is he a Gospel? I busted Taylor for lying easily with many outrageous claims that he made that not even comtemporary Viet history sources would dare to make.

Taylor is nothing in my eyes. If you want to use his sources as a backup to your argument; I suggest you ask Taylor to join PDF so I can school him

http://vi.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Trận_Bắc_Lệ&action=history

Thanh Hoa borders LAOS, (Lan Xang at the time of Le Loi) Tana Li even said that Le Loi was Lao if he was not a Muong. It was a border province.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile..._the_15th_century/file/60b7d51df84438389a.pdf

Bac Le was a Viet ambush; deal with it. French crushed china in Tonkin; deal with it.

Thanh Hoa borders Laos so are half of Vietnam, genius. Did your historians go back in time to ask Le Loi was a Muong or Lao? Apparently, your historians make a claim on behalf of Le Loi that not even contemporary historians could make. Again, I busted you and your historians for making up facts.

Ming got crushed by Dai Viet; deal with it. Even your Mingshi does not deny it; why would you?

 

[Grand Historian]

Western historian

A Third party can shed new light on historical events.

Taylor has more credibility than me because of what? Is he a Gospel? I busted Taylor for lying easily with many outrageous claims that he made that not even comtemporary Viet history sources would dare to make.

Taylor is nothing in my eyes. If you want to use his sources as a backup to your argument; I suggest you ask Taylor to join PDF so I can school him

Taylor has a PHD and BA in History something which you lack.

What outrageous claims,Nationalistic Vietnamese can't accept that the Sincized Kinh welcomed the Ming while the unruly Trai didn't.

You claim Ming Shi said this Ming shi said that then quote the Hanzi if you can read it.

All this is coming from someone who thinks Dong Song civilized the Chinese,when in fact Vietnamese were the ones to copy surnames,script,language,architecture,customs,government etc.

Calling other people chinaman,idiot,stupid,confushit, while I never called Vietanmese member Vietcong,Monkey etc only trolls.

 

[Wholegrain]

Western historian

Taylor has more credibility than me because of what? Is he a Gospel? I busted Taylor for lying easily with many outrageous claims that he made that not even comtemporary Viet history sources would dare to make.

Taylor is nothing in my eyes. If you want to use his sources as a backup to your argument; I suggest you ask Taylor to join PDF so I can school him


Bac Le was a Viet ambush; deal with it. French crushed china in Tonkin; deal with it.

Thanh Hoa borders Laos so are half of Vietnam, genius. Did your historians go back in time to ask Le Loi was a Muong or Lao? Apparently, your historians make a claim on behalf of Le Loi that not even contemporary historians could make. Again, I busted you and your historians for making up facts.

Ming got crushed by Dai Viet; deal with it. Even your Mingshi does not deny it; why would you?

LOL, ViXuyen is claiming that both Western historians and the French in 1884 were liars, since they said China did it and that French were defeated at Bang Bo (Zhennan Pass).

The Cambridge History of China - Google Books

Throne and Mandarins: China's Search for a Policy During the Sino-French ... - Lloyd E. Eastman - Google Books

http://books.google.com/books?id=j1aGAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA87&dq=the+June+1884+Baclé+incident+is+perhaps+the+most+well+known+of+the+Chinese+military+victories&hl=en&sa=X&ei=paldU__fOcbjsATvxIG4Cw&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=the%20June%201884%20Baclé%20incident%20is%20perhaps%20the%20most%20well%20known%20of%20the%20Chinese%20military%20victories&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=j1aGAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA88&dq=Spurred+on+by+their+defeat+at+Baclé,+the+French+decided+to+blockade+the+Chinese+island+of+Taiwan+(Formosa).+Beginning+on+5+August+1884,+Admiral+Lespes+bombarded+Taiwan's+forts+at+Jilong+(Keelung)+Harbor+on+the+northeast+coast&hl=en&sa=X&ei=16hdU-feAdfNsQTmxIH4DA&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Spurred%20on%20by%20their%20defeat%20at%20Baclé%2C%20the%20French%20decided%20to%20blockade%20the%20Chinese%20island%20of%20Taiwan%20(Formosa).%20Beginning%20on%205%20August%201884%2C%20Admiral%20Lespes%20bombarded%20Taiwan's%20forts%20at%20Jilong%20(Keelung)%20Harbor%20on%20the%20northeast%20coast&f=false

Modern Chinese Warfare, 1795-1989 - Bruce A. Elleman - Google Books

According to ViXuyen, these historians with PHD and who taught as Professors at Western universities are all liars.

New book explores history of the Vietnamese | Cornell Chronicle

Keith Weller Taylor - Department of Asian Studies

John King Fairbank | Fairbank Center

Denis Crispin Twitchett (British historian) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

U.S. Naval War College |
Bruce A. Elleman

Dr Tana Li - Researchers - ANU