Somebody is trying to use the incident of Madina Masjid to incite discord

[Falconless]

@mods this thread has become a sub-sectarian dick measuring contest.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Don't try to jump around with your tail caught in the trap. On the matter of demolishing a mosque, both Barelvis and Deobandis have the same views.

Relax mate, I am not getting into any sectarian mudslinging here. You are free to follow whatever sect/religion you want. But you cannot impose your twisted misinterpretation of Islam on others. That's the whole point .. As for jumping around, well, I feel sorry for you .. I can understand your pain ..

As for the mosque, I, for one, do not agree with the SC decision. But the law of the land has to be followed in any case. Those inciting rebellion against the state on this matter are guilty of trying to spread Fasad Fil Arz and if things spiral out of control and lives are lost, their punishment is very clear, at least as per the Holy Qur'an

 

[Vapnope]

Insha Allah this Qadiyani wet dream will never come to pass.

Ah. Blame it on Jews as well when you are at it.

In case you don't know, Mosques belongs to no one, not even the government. Within the mosque, the diktats and writ of the government do not hold. Only Allah's Law applies inside a mosque.

Tell this to Saudi Government about Kaaba and let me know what they say, try that gimmick in badshahi Mosque or Faisal Masjid and tell me what happens next.

 

[CriticalThought]

there is another way too sir

i was grown up a small town where there is almost every sect and many hindus too . all i see in my childhood we was not learn hate and secterianism as elders did not teach is .

we go hindu marriages
we go ashoura jaloos and eat drink
we go rajbis
and we go to milaad shareef and 11ween shareef too .

this sectarian issue is 1400 years old no Pakistani not all of us can solve it . all we can do try to teach our kids not to discriminate hate and have say bad to any faith . just live with it in peace . do not give them identity like deobandi brlvi shia sunni teach them we are muslims and everyone have own way to pray to god but we all worship same god

ohh man even my family was deobandi i love so much of sufism but since thsi tlp and labbaik started i have washed my hands from them .

Why not complete the entire spectrum of character traits of Indian President Abdul Kalam and include the reading of both Holy Quran and Raghvad Gita?? (Astaghfirullah Ma'aaz Allahi min zaalik).

Sit back and think what you are proposing: totalitarianism. Why should I accept whatever you have written above? What are your proofs from Quran and Sunnah that support such views? Are you trying to wipe out Islam from people's lives?

As for the mosque, I, for one, do not agree with the SC decision. But the law of the land has to be followed in any case. Those inciting rebellion against the state on this matter are guilty of trying to spread Fasad Fil Arz and if things spiral out of control and lives are lost, their punishment is very clear, at least as per the Holy Qur'an

We are largely in agreement here, except I am maintaining that current 'Law of the Land' is that there IS no law in this land, and this is the incompetence of multiple governments and a situation that is ripe for trouble. When such a situation arises, it is the enemies of State and Islam who start talking about Imposing the Writ of State. Those are exactly the terrorist, fasaadi elements.

 

[CriticalThought]

@CriticalThought You said that praying behind a Deobandi Imam is your right (Well i wouldn't force you to pray behind non deobandi Imam) but please tell me how you guys do Hajj? Do you stand behind Imam e Kaaba or ask for a deobandi Imam e Kaaba?

Let me summarize the position of the Ahl as Sunnah Wa Al Jama'aah here.

There are four Madhahib that all represent Sirat Al Mustaqim. Anyone following any one of them fully, without indulging in Shirk, Bid'aah and Ilhad is Alhamdulillah on the Straight Path.

When I say it is my fundamental right to have a Deobandi Mosque, and a Deobandi Imam, I want to ensure that the Madhab I am following does not get wiped off from the face of the Earth. Now suppose I am in an area where there are no Deobandi mosques and I need to offer my congregational prayers. I will go to the nearest available mosque belonging to the Ahl As Sunnah Wa Al Jama'aah as described above. I will pray according to my Hanafi Madhab, and the Imam will pray according to his own Madhab, and there will be no problem. Alhamdulillah.

Khan sb you are spot on. However sectarianism in this country has reached to new level which is absent in my other muslim countries. In Pakistan, you cannot be called a true muslim by your sect unless you call another sect non muslim. Our identity of being a muslim is not based on our acts rather slogans of hate towards others.
Unfortunately, Pakistan has given a lot of unnecessary space to sectarian agendas and it is making this country suffer.

Absolute nonsense based on hatred of religion and an uninformed opinion.

thank you for enlighten we will InshAllah change lahores name to khadim-abad or rizvi-abad

Yes, change LUMS to KUMS or RUMS

 

[CriticalThought]

Ah. Blame it on Jews as well when you are at it.

Tell this to Saudi Government about Kaaba and let me know what they say, try that gimmick in badshahi Mosque or Faisal Masjid and tell me what happens next.

You do understand the difference between 'diktats of government' and 'managing the administrative affairs of a mosque'?

 

[Menace2Society]

There should be fewer places of worship but of a higher quality building and Imams who are vetted. There should be an Imam register managed by the government and they must pass the "I am not a TLP/sectarian/political activist" test.

Who knows in how many shacks, youtube brainwashed imams are preaching so they can finally say to themselves "I am an important person in life, people listen to me".

And you know controversy is what these folk thrive on, they want the attention. They want the opportunity to make a big deal, it feeds their delusions of importance. Lal Masjid is a perfect example of this.

You need to understand your demography, when an English guy red pills he might become a racist, or ultra nationalist. An American guy red pills and he might become a Trump supporter or become a follower of QAnon. In India he might become RSS. In Germany he might become a nazi revivalist. In Japan, he might kill himself when he realises the futility of an overworked, under-stimulated Tokyo life. In Syria he might become ISIS.

Do you see what I mean? In every society there is a section of people who red pill and think they know the truth.

Unfortunately in Pakistan as it is Islam dominated, the red pill usually leads them down the extremist/anti state path and in an unregulated place like yours these fantasies become violent and go beyond lip service. The terrorist organisations understood this early on and used it as a tool to destabilize and carefully curated the content (sheikh Imran Hossein was calling for the fall of Pakistan in 2007 on youtube FACT) to lead these people down this path. When a brain absorbs this and becomes enmeshed especially for a number of years it is very very difficult to undo. It will take a lot of effort for the person to reverse and even then he might hang on to some crumbs. Perception of reality is altered and for some permanently.

 

[pak-marine]

And change the Islamabad as Azizabad on name of Maulana Abdul Aziz of Lal masjid for such day and night struggle & sacrifices.

Aray yar with azizabad wil need nine zero who would want “the mendak “ in a peaceful place .. another thought says why not both burqina azizi and fat toad can live toghether peacefully

 

[M. Sarmad]

We are largely in agreement here, except I am maintaining that current 'Law of the Land' is that there IS no law in this land, and this is the incompetence of multiple governments and a situation that is ripe for trouble. When such a situation arises, it is the enemies of State and Islam who start talking about Imposing the Writ of State. Those are exactly the terrorist, fasaadi elements.

Taking law into one's own hands on the pretext of poor governance / ineffectiveness of law enforcement etc. can never be justified. We are a functioning state and this kind of attitude will only lead towards anarchy and Fasad. Writ of the state has to be established in any case, but unwarranted use of force is highly inadvisable. This matter could have been easily resolved by providing compensation/alternate land to shift the mosque (or by allotting alternate space for the public park) .. It was KMC after all that allowed that mosque to be built there (and stay there for 25 years) .. .. Yes, there are some enemies of the state (and religion) who want unrest and violence. And those enemies include the Mullahs who are inciting rebellion and bloodshed.

 

[TheSolution]

There should be fewer places of worship but of a higher quality building and Imams who are vetted. There should be an Imam register managed by the government and they must pass the "I am not a TLP/sectarian/political activist" test.

Who knows in how many shacks, youtube brainwashed imams are preaching so they can finally say to themselves "I am an important person in life, people listen to me".

And you know controversy is what these folk thrive on, they want the attention. They want the opportunity to make a big deal, it feeds their delusions of importance. Lal Masjid is a perfect example of this.

You need to understand your demography, when an English guy red pills he might become a racist, or ultra nationalist. An American guy red pills and they might become a Trump supporter or become a follower of QAnon. In Germany he might become a nazi revivalist. In Japan, he might kill himself when he realises the futility of an overworked, under-stimulated Tokyo life. In Syria he might become ISIS.

Even on this forum you can tell the aggressive and triggered ones,

Do you see what I mean? In every society there is a section of people who red pill and think they know the truth.

Unfortunately in Pakistan as it is Islam dominated, the red pill usually leads them down the extremist path and in a unregulated place like Pakistan these fantasies become violent because the terrorist organisations understood this early on and used it as a tool to destabilize and curated the content to lead these people down this path.

This would literally be the biggest development to happen in Pakistan. Not them J-10Cs, not CPEC, but fixing these brainwashed people's minds. I see no hope for Pakistan if this, or something similar, is not done.

We give so much importance to some random Mullah who most of the time has no clue wtf he's talking about, occasional child molestation, and on top of that spreads harmful and extremist thoughts to people who are young and don't know any better!

Someone make this suggestion to people able to implement this... otherwise forget India, we will kill ourselves eventually.

 

[CriticalThought]

Taking law into one's own hands on the pretext of poor governance / ineffectiveness of law enforcement etc. can never be justified. We are a functioning state and this kind of attitude will only lead towards anarchy and Fasad. Writ of the state has to be established in any case, but unwarranted use of power is highly inadvisable. This matter could have been easily resolved by providing compensation/alternate land to shift the mosque (or by allotting alternate space for the public park) .. It was KMC after all that allowed that mosque to be built there (and stay there for 25 years) .. .. Yes, there are some enemies of the state (and religion) who want unrest and violence. And those enemies include the Mullahs who are inciting rebellion and bloodshed.

And again you ignore the fact that there IS no law. One takes the law in One's own hands, when there is a law to be taken into hands. OK, not the finest piece of writing I have ever done, but you get the idea.

Now here is the real kicker. Case law is also part of law and Supreme Court's decision basically adds to the body of law in Pakistan. So far, the SC seems quite open to the prospect of providing an alternate piece of land, and as my OP suggests, I am of the opinion that this opportunity should be grasped so we can finally obtain a legalized piece of land. It would even more brilliant if the government simply legalizes the exact same piece of land. That would be quite smart and forward thinking on the part of the government. And this is the very premise of this thread. Of course, my personal opinions are void if they contradict the Fatwa from Muftian-e-Kiraam.

BUT, the question needs to be asked: in allocating an alternate piece of land, do the Supreme Court and Government realize that a mosque is for all eternity? This very important point needs to be addressed and acknowledged by these authorities as well.

At the same time, this thread is warning against the very dark world if miscreants lead to the demolishing of the mosque.

 

[M. Sarmad]

Now here is the real kicker. Case law is also part of law and Supreme Court's decision basically adds to the body of law in Pakistan. So far, the SC seems quite open to the prospect of providing an alternate piece of land, and as my OP suggests, I am of the opinion that this opportunity should be grasped so we can finally obtain a legalized piece of land. It would even more brilliant if the government simply legalizes the exact same piece of land. That would be quite smart and forward thinking on the part of the government. And this is the very premise of this thread. Of course, my personal opinions are void if they contradict the Fatwa from Muftian-e-Kiraam.

BUT, the question needs to be asked: in allocating an alternate piece of land, do the Supreme Court and Government realize that a mosque is for all eternity? This very important point needs to be addressed and acknowledged by these authorities as well.

We maybe entitled to our opinions regarding law/judgements but it is The Supreme Court of Pakistan that is the Court of ultimate appeal and final arbiter of deciding all civil and criminal disputes and interpreting the law and the Constitution.

We do agree on what should have happened ... But we disagree on what should happen next as the SC judgement is not what we had wished for. Picking up arms against the state or threatening the state to submit is no solution in my opinion

 

[CriticalThought]

We maybe entitled to our opinions regarding law/judgements but it is The Supreme Court of Pakistan that is the Court of ultimate appeal and final arbiter of deciding all civil and criminal disputes and interpreting the law and the Constitution.

We do agree on what should have happened ... But we disagree on what should happen next as the SC judgement is not what we had wished for. Picking up arms against the state or threatening the state to submit is no solution in my opinion

Don't push people against a wall, where they are left with no choice except fight or die. Because, contrary to the insinuations made by irreligious and anti-religious elements, this is a matter of Defending the House of Allah. If the constitution and Chief Justice are guilty of this, then Constitution of Pakistan gives a blanket guarantee that Islam shall be upheld.

We have seen what happened in Lal Masjid, and we know there are people who think Musharraf took the right steps. We know these exact same people will be wanting a repeat in this case as well. It is my most humble suggestion to get off from the high horse, and stop being power drunk. I hope the functionaries and dignitaries of Pakistan will not prove themselves to be arrogant fascists, but rather God Fearing Muslims who are amongst those who build mosques, not demolish them.

 

[Verve]

Taking law into one's own hands on the pretext of poor governance / ineffectiveness of law enforcement etc. can never be justified. We are a functioning state and this kind of attitude will only lead towards anarchy and Fasad. Writ of the state has to be established in any case, but unwarranted use of force is highly inadvisable. This matter could have been easily resolved by providing compensation/alternate land to shift the mosque (or by allotting alternate space for the public park) .. It was KMC after all that allowed that mosque to be built there (and stay there for 25 years) .. .. Yes, there are some enemies of the state (and religion) who want unrest and violence. And those enemies include the Mullahs who are inciting rebellion and bloodshed.

SC should have given the option of legalising by either sale at market price or auction of the mosque to the highest bidder (let the sects fight each other in a bidding war) and long jail sentences of all those in KMC and the mosque administration involved in kabza.

Mosques for all sects are a business, to generate revenue for their sect and to pay for the luxuries of mosque management.

There would be less hue and cry then and public won't come out either in support. Demolition of the mosque will anger the jahil at large public.

 

[Vapnope]

Taliban boys at it again. My imam and my madhab haha