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Somebody is trying to use the incident of Madina Masjid to incite discord

yes we liberals go asked these mullahs to grab lands all over paksitan and make illegal mosques so then we can have an agenda . what a stupid post you have man . rather then admitting that illegal mosques should be demolished and LAW must be followed you guys defending a illegal mosque which your mullah brigade make on god damn park you bashing liberals here . ask your mullah brigade to buy land and make masjid lets see how many new mosques will build then .

It has become fashionable in Pakistan and especially on PDF to bash Pakistani 'liberals' and I tend to think that's because of the global narrative built during the Trump presidency.

This mosque is not only built on illegal land but is using up space from land granted for a park. Karachi is in DIRE need of green spaces! People should use any possible available space: balconies, rooftops, courtyards, medians on roads trees and plants. There needs to be massive effort to make Karachi green within the allowed water resources. And looking at the map given by a user above, there are plenty of mosques around anyway; the park needs to be there and should be lush green! Go sit under a Neem tree in Karachi even in the month of May and see how much better the experience would be!

PS. I never paid attention to Deobandi or Barelvi blah blah growing up in Karachi. Once I went to a different part of the city and chatted with the Maulana there. Recently I had heard of these sectarian terms and so I asked the Maulana about them. He said "Just pray where ever you feel like and don't ever think about these divisions". That was some rational, educated clergyman instead of what I hear about with the likes of Khadim Rizvi and the Maulana Aziz of Lal Masjid! The '70s were indeed different!
 
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Actually, you are clueless in religious matters. Praying behind a Deobandi Imam is my fundamental right and my freedom of religion. You are a usurper of my freedoms and the actual educated uncouth criminal.
Great attitude!, No amount of education or so called "critical thought" can get rid of that inner secterion attitude, and takfiriyet
As not praying in different mosques represents you believing other sects to be non-muslim or atleast not as "pure" of Muslim as you're

Next step blow up somewhere crowded

@Sainthood 101 - these sects have their own religion, it is definitely not Islam. Quote them from Quran, they ignore. Quote them from Hadith, they ignore. It's all a fraud. How can one be muslim if he calls other muslims kafir? These sects all call each other kafir and this is why they won't pray behind any other than their own.
 
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So, there are two points being contested here:

The first is the need for calling ourselves Deobandi. I believe I have already answered this above. We do this, to:
  • Dissociate ourselves from the multitude of various beliefs and practices observed throughout the sub-continent.
  • Let everybody know what are the exact beliefs and practices that we ourselves stand for.
Since no one has raised any serious questions on this, I move forward.

Next is the matter of praying behind a Deobandi Imam. As I said above, a misconception has been created in your minds that in order to be a good Muslim, you need to shun sects and just embrace everyone as a Muslim. So let us look at this from a historical perspective. Specifically, the conduct of congregational prayers within the Haram of Mecca itself. And for this, I bring forth a source written in Arabic, on a Saudi website:

http://www.alhejaz.org/torath/0710201.htm

Now I want you all to actually exercise those "Ilmi Kitabi" intellectual muscles of yours, and use google translate. Go to translate.google.com, select Arabic in the source language, English in the translated language, and paste the link above into the box for Arabic. Google Translate will create a link for you in the box for English. Click on that link. This is what you get:

Ibrahim Al-Aqsam
The imam is the one to be emulated, and the imam in language: the source of the imam. It was said: I led the people in prayer. Follow him: follow him. And the collection of imam: imams, and it can be an imam. The Almighty said: (And We made among them imams guiding by Our command, when they were patient and were certain of Our signs). Imamate in the terminology of jurists has two meanings: the minor Imamate, which is the Imamate of prayer, and the Great Imamate, which is the caliphate. The name “The Great Imamate” is taken from leading the prayer in following him and following him. Given the importance of prayer, the jurists considered it one of the functions that the sultan must establish, especially in sultan mosques, such as mosques and large scenes. As for small public mosques, the imam of prayer does not have to be appointed by the sultan.

The imams of the Two Holy Mosques have a special status that stems from the status of the Two Holy Mosques in the hearts of Muslims. So prayer in Makkah and Madinah is twice as rewarding than in other cities, for the Messenger of God, peace and blessings be upon him, said: (A prayer in this mosque of mine is better than a thousand prayers in other mosques, except for the Sacred Mosque). Abu Hilal Al-Askari (d. 395AH/1004AD) stated that the first imam to pray in congregation in Islam was the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, when he prayed in Makkah Al-Mukarramah before the migration, and he was with him Ali bin Abi Talib and Jaafar bin Abdul Muttalib, may God be pleased with them both. The first mosque in which the Prophet prayed in congregation with his companions was the Quba Mosque.

And the actual imamate of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, was achieved after the construction of the Prophet’s Mosque. His first work in Medina was the construction of the mosque, which is the mainstay of building the Muslim community. Through the imam of the mosque, he exercised all the leadership roles, he was the role model, the teacher, the educator, the mufti, the judge and the leader. No one else led the prayer in the Prophet’s Mosque in Madinah. Except for what happened when he fell ill, when he commanded that Abu Bakr al-Siddiq, may God be pleased with him, lead the people in prayer. As for the case of his travels or expeditions, peace be upon him, he used to entrust this task to the companions of the people of knowledge and religion. He succeeded Abdullah bin Umm Maktum in the prayer leadership in the year of his conquests.

As for the first to lead the Muslims in the Great Mosque of Mecca, he is also the Messenger of God, may God’s prayers and peace be upon him, in the year of the conquest of the year 8 AH / 629 AD. He prayed there for fifteen nights, and it was said: 19 and 17 nights. Then, he, peace be upon her, appointed Atab bin Usayd to lead the leadership, and Muadh bin Jabal to lead and teach the people. It was said that the one who assumed the imamate was Hubaira bin Shibl, and that he was the first to lead the people in congregation in Mecca after the conquest.

In the era of the Rightly-Guided Caliphs, one of the tasks of each caliph was to play the role of the imam in prayer, but when he was traveling or sick, he delegated someone to delegate to him. During the era of Omar, may God be pleased with him, the people gathered in Tarawih prayers in the Prophet’s Mosque under one imam, Ubay bin Ka’b, after the Companions used to pray it individually, and that was in Ramadan in the year 14 AH / 635 AD. And when Omar, may God be pleased with him, stabbed him, he made the prayer of the Rumi's companion, until the Shura Council finished choosing a caliph. And when Othman bin Affan, may God be pleased with him, was surrounded, he ordered some companions to lead the people in prayer, such as Ali bin Abi Talib, Abu Umamah, and Sahl bin Hanif, may God be pleased with them all. And when Ali took over the caliphate, may God be pleased with him, he saw that the city was not suitable for staying in it, and that sedition would ravage the nation, so he went out to Kufa, after making Sahl bin Hanif Al-Ansari a prince and imam.

As for the imams of the Grand Mosque in Makkah in the era of the Rightly-Guided people, the caliphs used to entrust them to the princes or governors who assumed this task, because it was part of their work and tasks. But the matter of the imams began to take on a political character as a result of the political events that took place between Ali and Muawiyah. In the year 39 AH / 659 AD, there was almost a fight between Qathm ibn al-Abbas, the governor of Mecca for Ali ibn Abi Talib, may God be pleased with him, and between Yazid ibn Shajarrah al-Rhawi, who was sent by Muawiyah to exile Ali’s agent from her, to establish the Hajj, and to take the pledge of allegiance to him in Mecca. Then a peace treaty took place between them, on the condition that each of them refrain from praying with the people, and the people choose whom to pray with them and perform Hajj with them.

In the Umayyad era, the position of the imam was entrusted to the princes of Medina and Mecca; During the period 64-73 AH / 683-692 AD, Ibn al-Zubayr revolted against the Umayyads and took control of Mecca, and the mother of the people there, after he expelled the Umayyad governor from it; Then he took control of Al-Madinah Al-Munawwarah, and made its governor before him, so his agent was the one who led the people in the Prophet’s Mosque.

In the year 129 AH / 746 AD, Abu Hamza al-Kharji, who revolted against the Umayyads and took control of Mecca, prayed to the people, then marched to Medina in the year 130 AH, and took control of it for three months. Abu Hamza al-Kharji used to call out the Commander of the Faithful, and he would lead the people in Medina and give a sermon in them, and he would say: Whoever stole is an infidel, and whoever commits adultery has committed blasphemy. During this period, the people of Medina used to pray behind him and then repeat their prayers. But the stay of the Kharijites in Medina did not last long, as the Umayyads defeated them in the battle of Wadi al-Qura and killed Abu Hamza in Mecca, so the Imamate of the Two Holy Mosques returned to them.

Among the most famous imams in the Umayyad era, the great imam of the Prophet’s Mosque, the venerable Sa’id bin Al-Musayyib Al-Makhzumi Al-Qurashi (d. 94 AH / 712 AD), who was one of the most knowledgeable people of his time, and was called a jurist of jurists. He has solid stances toward the politics of some of the Umayyads, and this is an indication that the imams have positive attitudes toward politics.

During the era of the Abbasid state, which ruled in the period 132-656 AH / 749-1258 AD, the status of imams was affected by the roles they passed through; During the eras of the powerful caliphs, the sources did not refer to any political or sectarian influences in the matter of the imams, but this era was punctuated by revolts against the Abbasids, especially by the Alawites, such as the revolution of Muhammad Dhul-Nafs al-Zakiya in 145 AH / 762 AD during the reign of Caliph al-Mansur, during which Zul al-Nafs al-Zakiya was able to He gained control of Medina and imprisoned the Abbasid ruler over it, then took control of the Medina pulpit, but his revolution ended with the elimination of him and the return of the city to the Abbasids.

Imam Malik bin Anas, the imam of Dar Al-Hijrah (d. 179 AH / 795 AD), represents the most prominent imams who appeared during this era, and to him the Maliki doctrine is attributed, and he had strict positions on the policy of some of the Caliphs of Banu al-Abbas, such as al-Mansur, in an indication that the imams of the Two Holy Mosques had decisive positions. Towards the violations of some caliphs. And when the city was subjected during the Abbasid era to the rule of independent states, such as the Tulunids, their control was no more than mentioning their name on the pulpits with the Abbasids, and they did not interfere in the matter of the imams. The same was the case for the Ikhchidian.

But when the Fatimids appeared on the scene of events and took control of the Arab Maghreb, they aspired to control the Hijaz, and they were able to control the city through one of the students from the Husseini branch, as he expelled the Abbasid governor of the city and preached in it in the name of Al-Muizz Li Din Allah Fatimid, and that was in the year 363 AH. / 973 AD. The black banners of the Abbasids were lowered, and white banners were raised over the emirate and the minarets of the Haram, and the sermon was transferred to the Fatimids in Mecca and Medina, and the position of the imams was affected.

The status of the imams was affected by the advent of the Fatimids and their control of Mecca at intermittent times. The most prominent of these influences was the growth of the Shiite sect and the increase in its influence. The Fatimids introduced to the call to prayer in Mecca the phrase “Hayy ala Khair al-Amal,” but this phrase was sometimes mentioned and sometimes canceled according to the power and influence of the Abbasids or the Fatimids. The Ayyubids were able to control the Hijaz and eliminate the Fatimid state in the year 563 / 1167 AD, so the city returned to the Abbasids’ possession and the name of the Ayyubids became mentioned in the Friday sermon with the Abbasid Caliph. Among the most famous families from which the imams of prayer appeared in Mecca during the Ayyubid era were the Quraish family, the Nuwayri family, and the house of al-Tabari during the Fatimid era. As for the most prominent families from which the imams of prayer appeared in Medina during the Fatimid era, they were the Sinan family, the Husaynid nobles during the seventh century AH, thirteenth century AD.

However, there is a phenomenon that has occurred in the Two Holy Mosques related to the imams, and it is the phenomenon of the imams of the four shrines according to the four schools of jurisprudence. Each jurisprudential school had its own imam and worshipers from the same school followed it. Shafi’i did not pray behind the Hanafi, as well as the Hanbali and Maliki, and this continued from the middle of the fifth century AH / eleventh century AD to the middle of the fourteenth century AH / twentieth AD. Despite the negativity of this phenomenon, it highlighted many imams, which increased the competition for the imamate in the same sect, which contributed to an increase in educational attainment to take up its positions.


These shrines were around the Kaaba; The Shafi’i shrine was next to the shrine of Abraham, peace be upon him, and it was the dominant madhhab for the people of Mecca, the Hanafi shrine next to the Stone, the Maliki shrine next to the Kaaba, and the Hanbali shrine next to the Black Stone. Since the phenomenon of shrines has produced many imams; It must be shed light on it. Some of them mentioned that the phenomenon of praying behind the imam of the sect was widespread in the Islamic world and then entered the land of the Two Holy Mosques as a result of fanaticism and ignorance. Imam al-Zarkashi (d. 796 AH / 1393 AD) believes that the reason for the emergence of this phenomenon in Mecca is the heresy of the imam of the Haram. Just as the princes of Mecca did not force the people to follow their sects, when the people refrained from establishing the congregation with their imam whom they established, they allowed the people to take the imams for themselves.The Orientalist Snouk, who later converted to Islam, believes that one of the reasons for the emergence of the phenomenon of the imams of the four shrines is the presence of the imams and the intensification of their role through the attempt of every community into fanaticism for its doctrine, and the attempt of every ruler from any country in the Islamic world at the time, to see the doctrine of his country prevailing in the Great Mosque of Mecca.

As for the date of the establishment of these shrines, the sources did not provide an agreed upon date. However, Al-Fassi confirmed that the phenomenon of the imams of the four shrines occurred in the late fifth century AH / early twelfth century AD, specifically the year 497 AH / 1103 AD. Ahmad al-Sibai believes that the emergence of the maqamat related to the four schools of thought was in the Fatimid era, due to the emergence of heresies and the emergence of the Zaydi school, but the Hanbali maqam did not exist at that time. The researcher Al-Tasan confirms that these shrines appeared in the Grand Mosque in the middle of the fifth century AH / eleventh century AD. As for the Hanbali maqam, it was not of interest to the people at that time, and it was not widespread in Makkah. Ibn al-Jawzi mentioned that Marjan Khadem al-Muqtafi al-Abbasid (530-555 AH / 1135-1160 AD) was fanatical against the Hanbalis, so he uprooted their shrine and abolished their imamate.

In any case, the description of the four stations came in the books of travellers; Where Ibn Jubayr described in his journey in 578 AH / 1182 AD the shrines of the four Sunni imams, and mentioned the existence of a fifth school of Zaydism, and that the nobles of Mecca were of the Zaydi school, and they introduced the phrase (live on good work) in the call to prayer. The shrine of the Zaydiyya was present during the Mamluk era, and it was between the Yemeni Corner and the Black Stone, and a Zaydi imam used to lead them in it, supplicating to the owner of Yemen after the dawn and sunset prayers, with a loud supplication. It was banned repeatedly in the years 702 AH, 726 AH, and 754 AH.

As for the method of the four imams praying in the Great Mosque of Mecca, Ibn Jubayr described it as follows: He was the first to pray with women from among the imams of the Sunnah of al-Shafi’i in front of Ibrahim’s shrine; After him, the Imam of the Malikis prays opposite the Yamani Corner. The Hanbali and Maliki pray at the same time; Then the Hanafi prays in front of the gutter, and he is the most pompous of the imams, because all the non-Arab kings were on his madhhab.

Ibn Battuta, who was a contemporary of the Mamluk era, saw Maliki and Hanbali pray together after al-Shafi’i, and then the Hanafi pray at the end of them. Ibn Battuta saw the condition of the people in the Maghrib prayer, as the four imams used to pray it at the same time, and the worshipers got confused and confused because of that. Al-Fassi confirmed what was happening from confusion and confusion to the worshipers in the Maghrib prayer, because all denominations were praying at the same time. Therefore, the Mamluk Sultan Faraj bin Barquq the Circassian ordered that people pray behind one imam in the Maghrib prayer, which is the shrine of Imam al-Shafi’i, excluding the rest of the sects, and that was during the Hajj season of 811 AH / 1408 AD, but this matter did not last long, because in the 816 AH season / 1413 AD The situation returned to the same as before with regard to the Maghrib prayer, by order of the Sultan Al-Malik Al-Mu'ayyad Abi Al-Nasr Sheikh.

As for the way the imams of the shrines pray in the Tarawih prayer, it was mentioned that each imam of the four madhhabs used to pray in congregation in the Sacred Mosque, and recite a part of the Qur’an every night. And the first imam to seal the Qur’an was Imam al-Shafi’i, on the 27th, and a party is held for that. Preparations for this ceremony begin two days in advance, as torches and candles are spread throughout the campus. On that night, Imam Al-Shafi’i would advance and pray the Isha of the Hereafter, then pray Tarawih and start reciting Surat Al-Qadr, and to it was the end of the recitation of the four imams the night before, and at that hour all the imams would stop praying in honor of the conclusion of the shrine, and attend it with blessings, so Imam Shafi’i concludes in two taslims Then he will rise as a sermon, facing the shrine and the honorable Kaaba, and when he has finished, the rest of the imams return to their prayers, and the gathering is broken up.As for the sealing of the rest of the imams, it was usually the night of the twenty-ninth of Ramadan, and each of them delivered a sermon after sealing, and the first to conclude on that night would be Imam al-Maliki, then a lesser celebration is held than the Shafi’i celebration, then followed by the rest of the imams.

In addition to leading the prayer, some of the imams of the shrine had other jobs, as the Imam al-Maliki had a special function of his own, which was to signal the pilgrims to leave Arafat on the day of the waqf, after verifying the sunset. The phenomenon of imams of shrines continued for many decades. Ibn Dhahirah (d. 986 AH / 1578 AD) indicated that the plurality of groups in the mosque remained during the Circassian Mamluk era, in the tenth century AH / sixteenth century AD, then it was canceled, and then it was reintroduced again. This phenomenon also continued in the Ottoman era. In fact, the competition between the imams increased over which of them was the first to advance, especially between Al-Shafi’i and the Hanafi. And when the Ottoman Sultan Suleiman Khan saw this competition between the Hanafis and the Shafi’is, he made the matter to the scholars of Mecca, and their opinion dictated that he should advance in the Hanafi Maghrib prayer, and at the time of tashahhud he enters the Shafi’i imam. As for the other two imams (Al-Maliki and Hanbali) they do not pray Maghrib as imams, and that was in the year 931 AH / 1524 AD.As for the Zuhr, Asr and Isha prayers, Imam Al-Hanafi precedes, then Al-Shafi’i, then Al-Maliki, then Al-Hanbali. In the morning prayer, al-Shafi’i, then al-Maliki, then Hanbali, then Hanafi are ahead.

The phenomenon of imams of shrines continued until the year 1218 AH / 1803, when the Saudis took control of the Hijaz, so they abolished the shrines and ordered the ruler Saud bin Abdulaziz to pray behind one imam [from his Wahhabi sect] and did the same in 1220 AH / 1805 when he took control of Medina and imposed his doctrine on it, until If the forces of Muhammad Ali Pasha came and defeated the Saudis and expelled them from the Hijaz, the phenomenon of imams of shrines returned, and it continued until the fall of Mecca in 1924 at the hands of the Saudi rule, when imams of the victorious official doctrine were imposed.

The same shrines were removed at later times, the Hanbali shrine was removed on the night of Tuesday 21/8/1377 AH / 1957 CE, then the Maliki shrine was removed the next night, and the Hanafi shrine was removed on 10/8/1377 AH. As for the Shafi’i shrine, its removal was delayed until the Zamzam Well was built in a year 1383 AH / 1963 AD. It is noted here that the Mamluks took care of the four maqams, but they increased their care for the Hanafi maqam and its imams. The Ottomans followed in the footsteps of the Mamluks in their fanaticism of the Hanafi school, making it their official doctrine, and exaggerated in renewing the Hanafi shrine in Makkah Al-Mukarramah and its architecture and construction, which increased the status of its imams.

The phenomenon of imams of shrines moved to Medina, after the Prophet’s Mosque remained under one Shafi’i imam who prayed with people in the shrine of the Prophet, may God bless him and grant him peace, in the purified kindergarten for most of the year, until the year 860 AH / 1455 AD, when an imam was added to the followers of the Hanafi school in Medina, who is the Jamali Muhammad bin Ibrahim Al-Hanafi. However, the Hanafi school of thought was present in Medina before that. Prince Tughan Sheikh al-Ahmadi, one of those close to the Mamluk Sultanate, tried to create a mihrab for the Hanafi beauty during the reign of Al-Ashraf Inal (857-865 AH / 1453-1460 AD), but he found strong opposition from the city's notables. Then he repeated the ball after that and succeeded in obtaining decrees with his establishment, and the Hanafi imam began to pray the five daily prayers after the departure of Imam al-Shafi’i, except for the Tarawih prayer, as they used to pray together.

The reason for the emergence of another mihrab in the city is due to the innovations that the imam introduced, which made people search for another imam. The Sulaymani mihrab), which is still present today, to the right of the honorable pulpit and adjacent to it.

During the Ottoman era, followers of the Maliki, Shafi’i and Hanafi schools performed rituals in the Prophet’s Mosque in three groups alternately. The Imam of the Shafi’is and his followers first prayed five obligatory prayers in the Prophet’s mihrab, from the noon prayer until the morning prayer the next day. Then the Shafi’i Imam would return to the Sulaymani mihrab to perform the duties of that day, and the Hanafi imam would perform the duties mentioned in the Prophet’s mihrab on the same day. As for the Maghrib prayer, Imam al-Hanafi used to precede the dislike of delaying Maghrib in his school of thought. As for the followers of the Maliki school, they were alone in praying in the Ottoman mihrab most days of the year, except for the days of the seasons, when the Hanafi imams moved to pray in it due to the large number of arrivals who follow their doctrine, and the Maliki imams return to the Sulaymani mihrab, while the Shafi’is remain committed to praying in the Prophet’s mihrab until it ends. season.But the progress of the Shafi’is did not last long. The Hanafis preceded the Shafi’is during the reign of the Ottoman Sultan Mahmud II in 1229 AH / 1813 AD), except in the morning prayer, where he preceded the Shafi’i, then the Maliki, and then the Hanafi. As for Tarawih prayers in the Prophet’s Mosque at that time, the number of congregations inside the mosque sometimes reached fifty.

In the fourteenth century AH / twentieth century AD (the late Ottoman era) there were several imams in Tarawih prayers: there is an imam for the ruler and his entourage, an imam for the aghas, an imam for the head of the military, an imam for the judge, his clerks and his assistants, an imam for the mufti, an imam for women, and an imam for families, and the matter has reached In Tarawih prayers, some families used to set up a special group for them in the Prophet’s Mosque. As for the two Eid prayers in the Prophet’s Mosque, it was as follows: Al-Maliki concludes the twenty-fifth night of Ramadan, Al-Shafi’i concludes the twenty-seventh night, and the Hanafis conclude the twenty-ninth night, and this arrangement was specific to the Prophet’s Mosque.

Scholars have many positions regarding the phenomenon of the imams of the four shrines. They denied this work because of the confusion it caused. In the year 550 AH / 1155 AD, Imam Abu al-Qasim Abd al-Rahman ibn al-Husayn ibn al-Habbab al-Maliki issued a fatwa prohibiting prayer for multiple imams and groups arranged in the sanctuary, and its impermissibility according to the four schools of jurisprudents. However, some people asked some scholars of Alexandria from the Malikis, and they issued a fatwa contrary to what Ibn al-Habbab al-Maliki mentioned. But Ibn al-Habbab responded to their fatwas and conveyed the denial of a group of Shafi’i, Hanafi and Maliki scholars who attended the Hajj season in 551 AH / 1156 AD, where a group of Shafi’i, Hanafi and Malik scholars denied the four imams praying in the Maghrib prayer simultaneously. Al-Fassi (d. 832 AH / 1428 AD), who was a contemporary of these four shrines, considered that the plurality of groups in the Sacred Mosque is heresy and misguidance, and that scholars, ancient and modern, have denied it.

But the phenomenon of the multiplicity of imams of shrines did not obscure what the imams received from the care and attention given to their choice. The Mamluk state arranged for the imams a very important administrative arrangement. In Makkah Al-Mukarramah, all the imams of the shrines were appointed by the Sultan, and they did not practice their work until after reading the decree of their appointment in the Grand Mosque, and in the presence of a group of notables of Makkah. But in the event of the death of one of the imams of the shrines, it was for the judge of Mecca to appoint someone in his place until he returned the order of the sultan, either by approving it or appointing someone else. The Sharif of Mecca had the right to prevent the imam appointed by the judge from performing his duties and appointing someone else. And all of this takes place in the period preceding the arrival of the Sultan’s decision to Mecca to appoint an imam in the place of the deceased imam. When the Sultan's decision arrives, the decision of both the Sharif and the judge is invalid.

The custom was for the Sultan to authorize the Shafi’i judge in Egypt to nominate the person to be appointed to the position of imam at a shrine in the Grand Mosque, and the Sultan’s decree and authorization from the Shafi’i judge in Egypt would reach Mecca for the appointed imam. Sometimes it interferes with the appointment of imams, mediation and support of notables, and the appointment for this position may be due to the desire of the Sultan, not to the conditions that must be met by the imam. In fact, this job may be inherited by certain families through sons and brothers, as we sometimes find that the Sultan appoints a baby son to the deceased imam in his father’s job, provided that one of his relatives performs the duties of the job until he reaches the young age. One of the matters that was taken into consideration in appointing imams was that no arrogant person would be appointed to the position of Imamate, even if he was qualified for the position.

In view of the large number of contenders for the position of Imamate, the Sultan used to appoint more than one imam for each shrine, on the condition that they share the salary of the position among them. Problems often arise between the co-imams. To solve such problems, a council was held, attended by the commander of the Mamluk garrison, the Shafi’i judge and other notables, and the problem was resolved by one of the two parties, or another person was chosen. During the study of the problem, the conflicting imams were prevented from working, and another person was appointed to do so until their problem was solved. The imam was not removed except by a sultan's decision to read in the Grand Mosque in front of a group of notables. The imam may appoint a representative for him, usually his son, brother or relative. The imam also had the right to waive his right to the imamate if he had a partner in it. In most cases, the waiver was due to illness or inability to perform the duties of the position, and the waiver was his son or relative, and sometimes the representative was not from the family of the imam.


If there are several partners in the position of Imamate, they often agree to establish one representative for all of them. If one of the contributors to the position of Imamate dies, his children succeed him in his share of the position, and they enter as partners with the rest of the partners. As for the salaries of imams, the historian al-Fassi mentioned that the imams who were officially appointed by the sultan received an unspecified salary. But the document of Al-Ashraf Shaaban, which was written in the year 777 AH / 1375 AD, specified the annual salary of the imam at four hundred dirhams, which is equivalent to thirty-three and thirty-three dirhams per month. The document also included the appointment of four imams in the Great Mosque of Mecca to lead the five daily prayers. In addition, the imams used to receive money from outside Mecca through alms coming from Morocco, India and Yemen. In most cases, the imam agreed with his deputy in his share of the salary of the imam, sometimes they agreed on a third and sometimes it amounted to half.

The scholars of Makkah used to train their children, after memorizing the Holy Qur’an, to lead the Tarawih worshipers in one of the shrines, and that was voluntary. The imams of shrines in the Sacred Mosque had a distinguished position among the people of Mecca, as they usually attend all religious occasions, and they also participate in councils in which some of the problems that occur in Mecca are presented to study and find appropriate solutions to them.

Some imams used to receive many gifts from followers of their sect from pilgrims, as well as gifts from rulers and princes of some other Islamic countries. Some of them assumed the leadership of the three mosques in Makkah, Madinah and Bayt al-Maqdis, and among them was Abd al-Qadir ibn Abd al-Latif al-Sarraj al-Hasani al-Fassi, the origin of the Makki Hanbali (d. One. Also among those who assumed the leadership of the three mosques, Al-Majd Abu Muhammad Abdullah bin Muhammad bin Muhammad bin Abi Bakr al-Tabari (d. 691 AH / 1291 AD).

There were unofficial imams appointed by the Sharif of Mecca. And these were not their salaries from the Sultan. On the other hand, there were a number of imams who believed in the Tarawih prayers voluntarily. The function of the imam of prayer in the Great Mosque of Mecca was sometimes intertwined with several functions, such as public speaking, judging, teaching, and others. As sometimes there is an overlap between the function of the imam and the function of the preacher, as there were prayers that the imam did not perform sometimes, and the preacher performed them, such as the eclipse prayer, or the eclipse prayer, or the prayer for rain. An example of this is what the preacher Abu al-Yaman Muhammad bin Ali al-Nuwayri did in the year 832 AH / 1428 AD, when he led the people in prayer for rain. When he reached the Sacred Mosque, he set the pulpit for him on the Mataf grounds, so he climbed it and preached and preached to the people. When the moon eclipsed on the night of Tuesday, 14 Jumada al-Awwal of the year 924 AH / 1518 AD, the people prayed the eclipse prayer.The preacher Yahya al-Nuwairi also prayed the eclipse prayer and delivered a sermon after that on the morning of Jumada al-Awwal 18 of the same year when the sun eclipsed. In the year 933 AH / 1526 AD, the preacher Wajih al-Din al-Nuairi al-Aqili offered the absentee prayer to the Sultan of India, Muzaffar Shah.

However, some imams were not safe from the harm of rulers or the evil of rulers, especially what was going on in the disputes between the nobles. For example, Sharif Qatada, the owner of Mecca, killed the Hanafi imam and the Shafi’i imam in 609 AH / 1212 AD.

Among the manifestations of the Mamluks' interest in the imams of the Prophet's Mosque is that they added new arrangements and organizations to them. At the beginning of their reign, the imams of the mosque were from the family of Sinan bin Abdul Wahhab bin Numaylah, from the Hussainid supervision, followers of the Shiite sect, the rulers of the city, and the Sunnis at that time had neither a preacher nor an imam. The Sunnis refrained from praying behind the Shiite imam, as they used to pray behind their Sunni imams, which prompted the Mamluk state to intervene and take the rhetoric from the Sinan family in the year 682 AH / 1283 AD, and its attribution to the Sunnis, and the imam remained in the hands of the Husayni supervisors.

The Mamluks postponed the return of the imamate to the Sunnis for a period of time, and then they returned it gradually; Where the Mamluk Sultan in Egypt used to send those who reside for the Sunnis to lead the imam and oration with the pilgrims’ rides every year, and he would stay about half the year, then return to Egypt, then others in the remaining half of the year, which exposed the Sunni imams to harm from the nobles and their Shiite Imami followers at the time.

The Mamluk Sultan Muhammad bin Qalawun added to the imam during his reign the order of the judiciary. Ibn Battuta confirmed when he visited Medina in the year 726 AH / 1335 AD that the two jobs were combined for one man. The Sunnis at that time were most likely to be a follower of the Shafi’i school of Imamate, oratory and judiciary. And in the year 775 AH / 1373 AD, the judge Muhib al-Din bin Abi al-Fadl al-Nuwairi was appointed as the judge of Medina, oratory and imamate in the Noble Prophet’s Mosque. It is noted that the imams in the Prophet's Mosque were also preaching, in contrast to what was the case in the Grand Mosque in Mecca. It should be noted that all appointments that come to the Prophet’s Mosque and are related to the Imamate, take the character of decrees that are read in all large people, especially during the Hajj season.

The position of the Imam of the Prophet’s Mosque in the Mamluk era was marred by dishonest competition, hatred, and sectarianism, and it was influenced by politics, and it was sometimes given that he did not seek the Sultan in Egypt with prestige and prestige. The most prominent feature of the imams in the era of the Mamluks was that they eliminated what the Imami Shiite imams had invented in the Prophet’s Mosque during the era of the Al-Sinan Al-Husayni family, where they prevented insulting the Companions, and abolished Mut’ah marriage, the mid-Sha’ban prayer, and others.

The official dress for those following the imamate and oratory in the Mamluk era was black. The dress was black, the turban was black, and the paillette was black. The Mamluks also added to what the jurists stipulated in general imams, within the conditions of the imamate in the Prophet’s Mosque, that the imam should have complete knowledge of the science of readings and the science of religious duties. When the Mamluk state fell at the hands of the Ottomans in 923 AH / 1516 AD, many jobs related to the imamate and oratory were created.

In the Ottoman era, the imams of the Prophet’s Mosque were independent of rhetoric at first, but some of the notables in the city were able to combine them, and the Ottomans created the position of the captain of the imams, which is lower than the position of the Sheikh of the Haram. As for the sheikh of the preachers, he was supervising the imam and rhetoric, and for this position it was required that he had practiced working with them and had obtained sufficient experience. The Ottomans were interested in the functions related to the Imamate and oratory in the Noble Prophet’s Mosque, such as the censer, the muraqqa’, the transmitter, the flag-bearer, and the carpet of the Prophet’s mihrab. The Ottoman Empire provided remunerative salaries to imams, especially during Ramadan.

Among the faults with the administrative arrangements related to imams in the Ottoman era is the system of succession in the imamate for more than one person, a matter that has its disadvantages, which deprived the people of scientific competencies from access to the imamate. However, it is noted that the Hanafi imams are distinguished from the rest of the other schools of thought. They were the most numerous, and their number increased in 1206 AH / 1791 AD to twenty-five imams, while the number of Shafi’i imams decreased to twelve, and thus the number of imams became 37 imams, as was recorded by Ayub Pasha (d. 1290 AH / 1890 AD).

As for the most prominent families from which imams and preachers appeared in Makkah during the Ottoman era: the Mirdad family, the Al-Ajimi family, the Khoqir family, the Rayes family, the Al-Ketbi family, the Shata family, the Abdul Shakoor family, the Al-Zawawi family, the Kurdi family, the Hariri family, the Jamal Al-Layl family, and the Al-Mughni family. The Kamal family, the Maliki family, the Ibn Hamid family, the Siddiq family, the Al-Qalai family, the Al-Faqih family, the Dahlan family, and the Al-Habashi family.

While the most prominent families from which imams and preachers appeared in Medina during the Ottoman era during the twelfth century AH / eighteenth century AD were: the Arkali family, the Azhari family, the Barzanji family, the Jami family, the Hajjar family, the Khayari family, and the Samhoudi family.

The imams of the Two Holy Mosques in the Saudi era no longer had any connection with the shrine system. After the control of the Hijaz by King Abdulaziz in 1343 AH / 1924 AD, he abolished the shrines, and appointed Sheikh Abdullah bin Hassan Al Sheikh (one of the grandsons of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab, the proponent of the call in Najd) as imam and preacher at the Grand Mosque. Then he assigned him the presidency of the judiciary and delegated him to choose imams and teachers. The imamate was performed by scholars from the people of the country or from those neighboring the Two Sanctuaries who were not residents of it, regardless of their sects, and it was no longer the preserve of a particular family. By reviewing the list of imams who led the two mosques in the Saudi era, it was noted that the houses that inherited the imam in the Mamluk and Ottoman eras did not continue to have the right to bequeath, as the selection of imams was done by the recommendation of Najd scholars to the imam. King Abdulaziz established a special administration for the Grand Mosque called (the Haram Board of Directors).In the year 1385 AH / 1965 AD, the General Presidency for Religious Supervision was established in the Grand Mosque, and was headed by Sheikh Abdullah bin Humaid. 1407 AH / 1986 AD, the name was changed to (General Presidency for the Affairs of the Grand Mosque and the Prophet's Mosque).

Among the most prominent tasks of the General Presidency for the Affairs of the Grand Mosque and the Prophet’s Mosque: appointing imams [most of them are of the official doctrine], setting appropriate conditions for this, organizing the prayer order, making a special schedule for each imam, and the obligatory prayer that he performs, and making a special schedule for rhetoric as well, and this is done in coordination, provided that Each imam shall have a backup substitute. And their rewards are cut, estimated at eight thousand riyals per month, because they are often in official jobs. However, there are seasonal annual bonuses offered to them on holidays or other occasions.

Most of the imams in the Saudi era were working in the judiciary. Sheikh Abdullah bin Zahem, the imam of the Prophet’s Mosque, mentioned in his book (Judges of Medina) a group of judges who assumed the leadership of the Two Holy Mosques, such as Sheikh Ahmed Kamakhi (d. 1351 AH / 1932 AD) and Sheikh Muhammad Nour Kutbi ( Died 1420 AH / 1981 AD), Sheikh Abdulaziz bin Saleh and others. It was also known about many of the imams of the Grand Mosque in Mecca that they were those who worked in the judiciary, such as Sheikh Abdullah bin Hassan Al Sheikh (d. 1378 AH / 1958 AD), who headed the judiciary in Makkah, Sheikh Saud Al-Shuraim and others. The first person to assume the Imamate in the Saudi era in the Prophet's Mosque was Sheikh Hamid Bardaan.

Many of those who led the two holy mosques at the beginning of the Saudi era were from outside the Saudi country [and they are all on the official doctrine]. From Egypt, King Abdulaziz attracted Sheikh Muhammad bin Abdul Razzaq Hamza, who was the imam and preacher of the Prophet’s Mosque in Medina; And Sheikh Abdul-Zahir Abu Al-Samh, who was summoned by King Abdulaziz and made him imam and preacher of the Grand Mosque until he died in 1370 AH / 1950 AD, as well as Sheikh Abdul-Muhaimin bin Muhammad Abu al-Samh, who was an imam and preacher at the Grand Mosque in 1369 AH / 1949 AD.

In case you do not want to go through all that, here is my summary for you:

  • In the times of the Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, and the Guided Caliphs May Allah Be Pleased with them, there was no controversy in the appointment of Imams for the two Holy Mosques.
  • Towards the very end of the times of Guided Caliphs May Allah Be Pleased with them, controversy started with appointment of Imams becoming political.
  • These political appointments continued till around mid of Sixth Century Hijrah. The article gives a date range of 497 AH - 555 AH.
  • And then something happened which you have not been taught about in school, and not informed about by the sugary sweet propaganda mongers who want you to leave sectarianism and embrace one single Islam. Within the Haram of Mecca, something called 'Muqamaat of Four Imams' were established. These were places around the four corners of the Ka'aba itself, allocated to an Imam of each of the schools of thought: Hanafi, Shafa'ii, Maliki, and Hambali. For congregational prayers, an Imam would lead the prayer for his school of thought in his allocated space. Once he was done, another Imam would lead prayers for his school of thought, until all four finished. For Maghrib prayers, all four Imams would start in their respective places simultaneously.
  • As the article shows, for a short while, there was a place for a Zaidi Imam as well.
  • This system of 'Muqamaat of Four Imams' continued for hundreds of years until the Saudis abolished it.
And here is my argument. The time between end of Guided Caliphs May Allah Be Pleased with them and start of 'Muqamaat of Four Imams' is a time of political appointments. This simply cannot be called 'consensus of Ummah' or (Ijma' ul Ummat). The time between establishment of Muqamaat and Al-Saud saw at least two different dynasties of Islamic Rulers, but the system was maintained. This system is 'consensus of Ummah', and one of the guiding principles of Fiqh is that the consensus of Muslims cannot be wrong. The Ummah of Rasoolullah Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, through its actions, has created an irrefutable, and undeniable consensus which is binding upon us.

This means, the people preaching unification of sects are going against the consensus of the Ummah, and are thus wayward and removed from the Straight Path. So now it is up to you, do you want to follow the Straight Path, or do you want to suck up the sugary Halwa cooked in the name of unification of Ummah?
A Fatwa is just an opinion that is non-binding anyway (except for the issuer himself). The law of the land has to be followed in any case. There are Fatwas that condone (rather encourage) suicide bombing .. As stated earlier, following such Fatwas will only lead to anarchy and Fasaad

Wrong. There are thousands for whom it is the Guidance which allows them to follow the Commands of Allah the Almighty. It is only as non-binding as the constitution which has been set aside by multiple military dictators. It is only as respectable as the respect of a Supreme Court that was physically attacked by Nawaz Sharif's goons. Have these acts lessened the binding of the constitution, or the sanctity of Supreme Court? If the Fatwa goes against the law of the land, then it is the duty of the Government to bring the constitution and law in line with the Fatwa.
 
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Wrong. There are thousands for whom it is the Guidance which allows them to follow the Commands of Allah the Almighty. It is only as non-binding as the constitution which has been set aside by multiple military dictators. It is only as respectable as the respect of a Supreme Court that was physically attacked by Nawaz Sharif's goons. Have these acts lessened the binding of the constitution, or the sanctity of Supreme Court? If the Fatwa goes against the law of the land, then it is the duty of the Government to bring the constitution and law in line with the Fatwa.

Fatwa, by definition, is a non-binding Islamic legal opinion (as opposed to Qada'/act of judgement by a Qadi).

Only those who do not accept the State of Pakistan as a legitimate entity (the likes of TTP and ISKP) would Say what you said ( i.e. Fatwa is as binding as the Constitution / law of the land ) ...
So, there are two points being contested here:

The first is the need for calling ourselves Deobandi. I believe I have already answered this above. We do this, to:
  • Dissociate ourselves from the multitude of various beliefs and practices observed throughout the sub-continent.
  • Let everybody know what are the exact beliefs and practices that we ourselves stand for.
Since no one has raised any serious questions on this, I move forward.

Next is the matter of praying behind a Deobandi Imam. As I said above, a misconception has been created in your minds that in order to be a good Muslim, you need to shun sects and just embrace everyone as a Muslim. So let us look at this from a historical perspective. Specifically, the conduct of congregational prayers within the Haram of Mecca itself. And for this, I bring forth a source written in Arabic, on a Saudi website:

http://www.alhejaz.org/torath/0710201.htm

Now I want you all to actually exercise those "Ilmi Kitabi" intellectual muscles of yours, and use google translate. Go to translate.google.com, select Arabic in the source language, English in the translated language, and paste the link above into the box for Arabic. Google Translate will create a link for you in the box for English. Click on that link. This is what you get:



In case you do not want to go through all that, here is my summary for you:

  • In the times of the Holy Prophet Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, and the Guided Caliphs May Allah Be Pleased with them, there was no controversy in the appointment of Imams for the two Holy Mosques.
  • Towards the very end of the times of Guided Caliphs May Allah Be Pleased with them, controversy started with appointment of Imams becoming political.
  • These political appointments continued till around mid of Sixth Century Hijrah. The article gives a date range of 497 AH - 555 AH.
  • And then something happened which you have not been taught about in school, and not informed about by the sugary sweet propaganda mongers who want you to leave sectarianism and embrace one single Islam. Within the Haram of Mecca, something called 'Muqamaat of Four Imams' were established. These were places around the four corners of the Ka'aba itself, allocated to an Imam of each of the schools of thought: Hanafi, Shafa'ii, Maliki, and Hambali. For congregational prayers, an Imam would lead the prayer for his school of thought in his allocated space. Once he was done, another Imam would lead prayers for his school of thought, until all four finished. For Maghrib prayers, all four Imams would start in their respective places simultaneously.
  • As the article shows, for a short while, there was a place for a Zaidi Imam as well.
  • This system of 'Muqamaat of Four Imams' continued for hundreds of years until the Saudis abolished it.
And here is my argument. The time between end of Guided Caliphs May Allah Be Pleased with them and start of 'Muqamaat of Four Imams' is a time of political appointments. This simply cannot be called 'consensus of Ummah' or (Ijma' ul Ummat). The time between establishment of Muqamaat and Al-Saud saw at least two different dynasties of Islamic Rulers, but the system was maintained. This system is 'consensus of Ummah', and one of the guiding principles of Fiqh is that the consensus of Muslims cannot be wrong. The Ummah of Rasoolullah Sallallahu 'Alaihi Wa Aalihi Wasallam, through its actions, has created an irrefutable, and undeniable consensus which is binding upon us.

This means, the people preaching unification of sects are going against the consensus of the Ummah, and are thus wayward and removed from the Straight Path. So now it is up to you, do you want to follow the Straight Path, or do you want to suck up the sugary Halwa cooked in the name of unification of Ummah?

So, you accept what your so-called ulema say and openly reject what the Holy Qur'an categorically states?? @Verve is absolutely right about what he has said in in his earlier post then
 
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Seculer cleanshave sharabis claim in every other thread" molvis are sectarian , they dont even agree with eachother bla bla" but in reality on every islamic issue in the nation, all of the ulemas speak with one voice(regardless of sect) ,the voice of islam and its ruling while drunkenclan always stands in the row of unbelievers.

This mosque should not even an issue in an islamic nation, its almost 40 years and everything was done legally back then.
its not like its private property . When judges order renovation of temples and gov build kartarpur with public money and at the same time orders destruction of a mosque then its legitimate to doubt the iman of these cleanshave seculer jahil anglo saxon judges and the ppl running pakistan!
 
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Goes against the order of Quran which essentially warns muslims to not get divided in sects. Some Pakistanis proudly bring in their sectarian bias against the teaching of Islam and yet claim to be the only true muslims. Amazing
Everybody is muslim. we all call ourself muslim , differences lies in how different ppl interperate Quran and Hadith and by doing that you automaticly get different sects . obviousely ppl like to hang around ppl who are close to their thinking/habits/values ,nothing wrong with that .

Just muslim is nice and all but we all know ppl who claim this ,also have their own interpretation and as such also belong to an sect.
 
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I have met atheists who are good people

There is no goodness in atheists. Just ask them how they feel about Islam and you will see their inner venom spill out.

How can anyone who doesn't give God recognition and respect can be good.

You also don't know what good is. Good comes from God and objective morality comes from God

Atheists can never be good because they reject the source of good and they actively engage in evil and follow Satan by rejecting God

Can someone who engage in evil be good?

Anyway, you will probably not understand because you seem like someone who has been impressed by the materialistic success of US and the power of dollars and this world.

But success or failure in this world doesn't make someone good or bad.

Even a bad Muslim is better than the best atheist because at the end of the day, a Muslim accepts God without associating partners to Him and the worst sin, the worst thing one can do is do shirk.

To put this in context, can someone who murders people at night be good if he feeds poor people out of charity? You will say NO, that's ridiculous. His good is evil because he commits this abhorrent sin of murder and in fact, his good gives the impression of evil.

In the same way, the "good" of atheist is useless when he engages in the most despicable, most abhorrent, the worst sin of shirk.

Even a bad Muslim is a better human being than the best atheist. Good atheist is an oxymoron.

I know you are trying to make a point about morality but your whole post is idiotic if you use an oxymoron "good atheist" as an example. It's like saying "good evil"


Don't use these words together again especially when you are arguing against Muslims. Even these Muslims fighting against each other over sects are better than the best atheist.
 
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Go ahead be proud of your sectarianism and tell others that they don't know anything about Quran.
فرقہ بندی نے عوام کو اندھا کر دیا ہے ۔
صرف اس لیے کہ وہ دیوبندی کے گھر پیدا ہوئے تو دیوبندی ٹھیک ہیں اگر وہ ساتھ والے گھر کے شعیہ کے گھر پیدا ہوتے تو پھر شعیہ ہی ہوتے ۔ اتنی معمولی سی بات یہ لوگ نہیں سمجھتے کہ انکو بچپن سے یہی سکھایا گیا ہے اور اب انکے اندر یہ بات فکس ہو چکی ہے ۔ یہ تمام فرقے انسان کی پیدائش سے منسلک ہیں جو جس ملک جس شہر جس گھر میں پیدا ہوا وہی سچ ہے ۔ کتنے لوگ ہیں جنہوں نے تمام فرقوں کو تنقیدی نظر سے پڑھا اور پھر ایک کو اپنے لیے اختیار کیا ؟ شاید پاکستان میں ایک بھی نہیں ہم سب اپنی پیدائش کے 5 منٹ بعد ہی نام جنس مذہب فرقہ نسل قوم سے بندھ جاتے ہین باقی ساری زندگی ہم یہی سمجھتے ہیں ہم سچے اور سیدھی راہ پر ہیں باقی سب گمراہ ہیں ۔
 
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The solution to sectarianism in Pakistan is not to give space to their sectarian agendas. Mosques should be govt property, should be regulated and it should not be exclusive to any sect whatsoever. Let their be no exclusive mosque in Pakistan.
there is another way too sir

i was grown up a small town where there is almost every sect and many hindus too . all i see in my childhood we was not learn hate and secterianism as elders did not teach is .

we go hindu marriages
we go ashoura jaloos and eat drink
we go rajbis
and we go to milaad shareef and 11ween shareef too .

this sectarian issue is 1400 years old no Pakistani not all of us can solve it . all we can do try to teach our kids not to discriminate hate and have say bad to any faith . just live with it in peace . do not give them identity like deobandi brlvi shia sunni teach them we are muslims and everyone have own way to pray to god but we all worship same god

ohh man even my family was deobandi i love so much of sufism but since thsi tlp and labbaik started i have washed my hands from them .
 
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@CriticalThought You said that praying behind a Deobandi Imam is your right (Well i wouldn't force you to pray behind non deobandi Imam) but please tell me how you guys do Hajj? Do you stand behind Imam e Kaaba or ask for a deobandi Imam e Kaaba?
 
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@CriticalThought You said that praying behind a Deobandi Imam is your right (Well i wouldn't force you to pray behind non deobandi Imam) but please tell me how you guys do Hajj? Do you stand behind Imam e Kaaba or ask for a deobandi Imam e Kaaba?
wahan kisi ki nhi chalti wo dandy waly log hain bhai . ab to tableeghi bhi ban ho gay bechary wahan :lol:
 
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there is another way too sir

i was grown up a small town where there is almost every sect and many hindus too . all i see in my childhood we was not learn hate and secterianism as elders did not teach is .

we go hindu marriages
we go ashoura jaloos and eat drink
we go rajbis
and we go to milaad shareef and 11ween shareef too .

this sectarian issue is 1400 years old no Pakistani not all of us can solve it . all we can do try to teach our kids not to discriminate hate and have say bad to any faith . just live with it in peace . do not give them identity like deobandi brlvi shia sunni teach them we are muslims and everyone have own way to pray to god but we all worship same god

ohh man even my family was deobandi i love so much of sufism but since thsi tlp and labbaik started i have washed my hands from them .
Khan sb you are spot on. However sectarianism in this country has reached to new level which is absent in my other muslim countries. In Pakistan, you cannot be called a true muslim by your sect unless you call another sect non muslim. Our identity of being a muslim is not based on our acts rather slogans of hate towards others.
Unfortunately, Pakistan has given a lot of unnecessary space to sectarian agendas and it is making this country suffer.
 
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