Some results for PLAAF-PAF Shahee exercise

[CriticalThought]

Not making use of brain, will only rust it.

1. Special attention is not the same as optimized.
2. Maximum Heat signature is at the exhaust NOT the inlets.

Now what i want you to do, is learn what is transonic flow,
Next you have to learn how the shape of the shock-wave is manipulated with the shape of the nose
Then you have to research , how engines may stall and be deprived of air, and what is done to stop these condidtions.
then, you have to reason, between what you learned and radar efficiency trade offs.

Per honorable member messiach, !!
@messiach the boy thinks you are royalty !

I don't know when we will come out of this mentality !

Start here

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-7.427560/page-168#post-9591653

And keep reading till you reach here

https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/jf-17-thunder-multirole-fighter-thread-7.427560/page-171#post-9600664

Your needle is still stuck on VIGVs. And there is nothing wrong with referring to members with respect, especially a lady. Respect for females is drilled into PAF cadets from the beginning I thought. You won't find them addressing with anything other than Ma'am.

 

[CHI RULES]

Not making use of brain, will only rust it.

1. Special attention is not the same as optimized.
2. Maximum Heat signature is at the exhaust NOT the inlets.

Now what i want you to do, is learn what is transonic flow,
Next you have to learn how the shape of the shock-wave is manipulated with the shape of the nose
Then you have to research , how engines may stall and be deprived of air, and what is done to stop these condidtions.
then, you have to reason, between what you learned and radar efficiency trade offs.

Per honorable member messiach, !!
@messiach the boy thinks you are royalty !

I don't know when we will come out of this mentality !

Respected member I think this forum is a mix of fanboys and professionals for knowledge sharing. May it's better to shares pros and cons of JF17 against SU30 instead of exchanging harsh words. Hope you shall explain your points in one go.

 

[CHI RULES]

We should consider that tactics do play an important role in war not matter how much superior in tech your adversary is. The Mig 21s used by Vietnam during Vietnam war successfully challenged far superior jets of USA as confessed by USAF later on and brought many changes in their jets later on. One should hope that even if JF17s got worst results in Shaheen exercise it is a gain for Pak as they shall bring in improved techs and tactics in future block of JF17 as well as existing fleet shall also be improved/upgraded.
Though JF17 is a multi role jet yet it's main function is to provide proper air defense against any adversary, if it can fulfill that role then it is up to the mark.

 

[The Accountant]

Understood on the cost of F-16 block 52's. On the J-10A, the PAF knew very well what was coming out. But they picked a lighter version, the JF-17. Nothing wrong with it, but in fact, Pakistan's true needs were a medium or heavy class fighters, especially considering the PAF currently faces 250 SU-30's as well as heavier Jags for strike and Mig-29's on the sea-front. It would've been much more feasible to buy and start an assembly line of J-10A and then local produce a much more heavier quality jet.



Understood. The only advanced Chinese option on the table and being considered by the PAF is the J-20.

Sir the plan was to have a low cost high turn around backbone fighter whereas air superiority or accross the border strike role 36 blk 52 were to be aquired ... Blk 52 order got droped due to funds and subsequently due to the cost whereas J10 was droped as in terms of capability it was not much higher to JF17 (same BVR missiles, similar radar tech) ... Furthermore, J10 offer was only for off the shelf purchase ... For range and payload we already planed 36 F-16 ...

PAF did blunder in keep on trusting USA whereas US keep on ditching our national priorities time and time again .. be it Afghanistan, Pressler amendment or other strategic matters ... However, now we have realized our mistakes and now not over relying on US or even China ... JF17 was given priority over J10 due to indigenious capability ...

We have to giveup short term capabilities to achieve long term objectives ... Our airforce is highly vulnerable in short and medium term however we are moving towards self made sub systems in long term following the South African path ... We may or may not succeed but atleast moving in the right direction

 

[gambit]

If the JF-17 radar is turned off, it will be “electromagnetically silent” to be detectable to Indian jets.

Wrong.

Radar detection is independent of the target's own EM emissions, if any. The target's EM emissions, be it from radar or from a comm antenna, may contribute to its detectability by the seeking radar, but eliminating those emissions do not affect the radar operations of the seeking radar.

It will rely on Erieye and other assets to continuously track the SU-30 and engage and the IAF pilot will not even know that a JF-17 is in the neighborhood. Granted, the Indians can also do the same thing, but keep in mind, PAF enjoys much more AWACS coverage than the IAF & especially the very small area they need to cover. India is a huge landmass and so it can’t cover the whole Battle space. In war, these sorts of tactical advantages amount to a whole deal.

JF-17 pilot networked with an ERIEYE is one heck of a deadly combo, especially against the SU-30s.

The word 'network' is rather carelessly thrown about. So without revealing any secret information, am going to explain the basics of networking in regards to what is being carelessly thrown about.

When an AWACS sends out a radar signal, not everyone can use the target echoes from those signals. The freq maybe too different, reflected signals maybe too contaminated by the atmosphere, reflected signals maybe too weak, there are jamming operations in the area, and so on and on...

However, if the AWACS sends out something like this:

- Airspeed is 600 kts
- Altitude is 10,000 ft
- Approaching from NE
- Descending ( or ascending )

Everyone can use that. Whether those facts are in a 1-0-1-0 data stream to be interpreted by a computer or a verbal relay by a human operator into the pilot's ears, everyone can understand that.

THAT is what 'network' really means.

The ideal situation is that the friendly aircrafts can use the AWACS radar transmissions as well as being assisted by a human operator.

Target echoes from a second hand or third party radar signals are the most difficult to process, even if the transmitter is a friendly. The AWACS uses different radar signals characteristics than fighters do. Its radar computer is larger. So processing the echoes from those differences will require newer technology in radar.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Wrong.

Radar detection is independent of the target's own EM emissions, if any. The target's EM emissions, be it from radar or from a comm antenna, may contribute to its detectability by the seeking radar, but eliminating those emissions do not affect the radar operations of the seeking radar.


The word 'network' is rather carelessly thrown about. So without revealing any secret information, am going to explain the basics of networking in regards to what is being carelessly thrown about.

When an AWACS sends out a radar signal, not everyone can use the target echoes from those signals. The freq maybe too different, reflected signals maybe too contaminated by the atmosphere, reflected signals maybe too weak, there are jamming operations in the area, and so on and on...

However, if the AWACS sends out something like this:

- Airspeed is 600 kts
- Altitude is 10,000 ft
- Approaching from NE
- Descending ( or ascending )

Everyone can use that. Whether those facts are in a 1-0-1-0 data stream to be interpreted by a computer or a verbal relay by a human operator into the pilot's ears, everyone can understand that.

THAT is what 'network' really means.

The ideal situation is that the friendly aircrafts can use the AWACS radar transmissions as well as being assisted by a human operator.

Target echoes from a second hand or third party radar signals are the most difficult to process, even if the transmitter is a friendly. The AWACS uses different radar signals characteristics than fighters do. Its radar computer is larger. So processing the echoes from those differences will require newer technology in radar.

Yes and
For those who want to know how all that works,
can study MANETS, Mobile AdHoc networks.
That is what our BMS is also based on,
that is what the future will be based on !

 

[MastanKhan]

We should consider that tactics do play an important role in war not matter how much superior in tech your adversary is. The Mig 21s used by Vietnam during Vietnam war successfully challenged far superior jets of USA as confessed by USAF later on and brought many changes in their jets later on. One should hope that even if JF17s got worst results in Shaheen exercise it is a gain for Pak as they shall bring in improved techs and tactics in future block of JF17 as well as existing fleet shall also be improved/upgraded.
Though JF17 is a multi role jet yet it's main function is to provide proper air defense against any adversary, if it can fulfill that role then it is up to the mark.

Hi,

Wrong statement---. The MIG21 was as advanced as the phantom it countered---.

Tactics don't hold any value if the technology you are facing is two tiers higher than yours---.

In modern warfare---to make it count---you need to be within a few percentage points away from your opponents technology---preferably in single digit---.

 

[Last Samuri]

Respected member I think this forum is a mix of fanboys and professionals for knowledge sharing. May it's better to shares pros and cons of JF17 against SU30 instead of exchanging harsh words. Hope you shall explain your points in one go.

Pros Of J17 over SU30MKI
lower RCS 3sqm v 15 sqm
More sortie rates possible per day eg 2 sorties per day v one just one sorties for mki as more maintenance intensive
JF17 cost $20m v su30mki cost $70 million
spares and weapons readily available via resupply from china crucial during war

Cons of JF17 over MKI
weak radar v the massive Pesa Bars radar on mki which is dubbed mini awacs
lower range and payload and only half the loiter time in battle . Mki will stay in battle twice as long over twice the combat radius
No HMD/hobs missle on thunders = in a dog fight MKI with TVC engine will win 9 out of 10 wvr dog fights
Thunder has no IRST system so will need to contantly emit radar signals MKI carrys IRST so can hide signals

IN SUMMARY

PAF will need to improve Thunder in block 3 to go toe to toe against mki even then will not have the weapons load, loiter time and operational reach and flexibility of the mki/flankers

I believe Shaheen excercises .................one J11 was taking on two thunders,,,,,,,, and winning ...

this is a good outcome and learn for PAF bcause PAF will look to bridge gap quickly

 

[CHI RULES]

Hi,

Wrong statement---. The MIG21 was as advanced as the phantom it countered---.

Tactics don't hold any value if the technology you are facing is two tiers higher than yours---.

In modern warfare---to make it count---you need to be within a few percentage points away from your opponents technology---preferably in single digit---.

Pls elaborate how Mig21 was modern as Phantom.