Some results for PLAAF-PAF Shahee exercise

[ARMalik]

Lets be realistic here shall we? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but there are still hundreds of J7s/J8s in service with Chinese airforce. The reality is that China also has hundreds of J-10 which are no better then an F-16, no matter what one says. You have JF-17 which was designed and built based on the experience the PAF had with F-16s. So why wouldn't the Chinese Air force not do exercises with JF-17s?

 

[royalharris]

OK
Clever guy, you are right

 

[PradoTLC]

Referring to 1971, means you are comparing today's fighters, with up to speed upgrades, such as the SU-27 and J-11, with almost a 4.5 decade old platform. Mirages in the 60's were similar to what F-16 was in the 80's and the 90's. I don't even understand why would a Mirage-V face off the SU-27 / J-11 to begin with? I know the PAF likes exercises with DACT, but the tech capability is light and day between the two platforms here.)

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RE: In a real war Mirages will probably be deployed against IAF with Su-30 being used to intercept PAF strikes planes.... Mirages could be part of a diversionary raid with the real strike package being F-16s Blk52. Besides there are plenty of second line targets to go after that are not so heavily defended targets which can be allocated to the mirages, time may be limited to day time strikes as an example. Mirage V can bomb, rocket, conduct anti run way mission, has the speed and capabilities to the job. It is still capable.

the USAF used such ruse tactics in vietnam... so this isnt a third world thing... even a older "obsolete" weapon has utility along with more modern assets.

Modern planes are important but more importantly it is how one uses assets and tactics to defeat the enemy.. which is why PLAAF trains with PAF. They know PAF was raised by USAF from the ground up and has decades long exposure and training with USAF and other western air forces. It has wartime experience against a well trained enemy i.e. both IAF and despite wars being a statement to "losing" the war it acquitted it;s self with much respect from it's adversaries

 

[MastanKhan]

Lets be realistic here shall we? Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but there are still hundreds of J7s/J8s in service with Chinese airforce. The reality is that China also has hundreds of J-10 which are no better then an F-16, no matter what one says. You have JF-17 which was designed and built based on the experience the PAF had with F-16s. So why wouldn't the Chinese Air force not do exercises with JF-17s?

Hi,

Due to a very simple reason---Plaaf has moved away from a NEW light combat aircraft---.

Their basic aircraft is going to be the J10 MEDIUM sized aircraft---. All older aircraft will die out at the end of their natural life---.

 

[DJ_Viper]

RE: In a real war Mirages will probably be deployed against IAF with Su-30 being used to intercept PAF strikes planes.... Mirages could be part of a diversionary raid with the real strike package being F-16s Blk52. Besides there are plenty of second line targets to go after that are not so heavily defended targets which can be allocated to the mirages, time may be limited to day time strikes as an example. Mirage V can bomb, rocket, conduct anti run way mission, has the speed and capabilities to the job. It is still capable.

the USAF used such ruse tactics in vietnam... so this isnt a third world thing... even a older "obsolete" weapon has utility along with more modern assets.

Modern planes are important but more importantly it is how one uses assets and tactics to defeat the enemy.. which is why PLAAF trains with PAF. They know PAF was raised by USAF from the ground up and has decades long exposure and training with USAF and other western air forces. It has wartime experience against a well trained enemy i.e. both IAF and despite wars being a statement to "losing" the war it acquitted it;s self with much respect from it's adversaries

How about we write something realistic shall we? Mirages are 50 year old platform, their airframes aren't worthy of extreme flight and maneuvers due to 40+ years of flying stress. The payload is very limited. I know the concept behind ROSE. But, that was when the PAF had nothing else besides some 1970's F-16's, some Mig-19 replicas (F-7 and A-5) and obviously, 1960's Mirages. So it made sense to do the ROSE upgrades.

Today, you have the JFT which by far, is the most superior platform second to F-16 that the PAF's ever operated. And you own it too. I think a J-17-S or strike variant is needed to replace the Mirages. Even in Multirole capabilities, the loadout isn't that impressive (at 4 tons including additional fuel). So Mirages may be good to provide close air / ground support with limited weapons. Sending these across the border would be suicidal as there is layers of Radar and SAM coverage. Specially around the flat lands of Punjab on both sides, which is where Mirages were going to get used, in addition to the Sea. The Sea role is also limited due to limited weapons load-out and airframe / fuel limitations.

Now, you compared "old" USAF tactics against the Viets. I am sorry, Vietnam didn't really have an airforce. Hot air-baloons, if they could fly faster could also have done the work. Vietnam and India are two VERY different animals. I think we can send our old F-4's and F-5's out of Aramark today and can send them over. But I can guarantee you, they will patrol the entire Vietnam and will come back. I don't think you can make that statement about even the advance F-16's going to India and coming back without harm. So if you want to do comparisons, give me something that even sounds similar. Let alone being Apples to Apples. Thanks

 

[Inception-06]

How about we write something realistic shall we? Mirages are 50 year old platform, their airframes aren't worthy of extreme flight and maneuvers due to 40+ years of flying stress. The payload is very limited. I know the concept behind ROSE. But, that was when the PAF had nothing else besides some 1970's F-16's, some Mig-19 replicas (F-7 and A-5) and obviously, 1960's Mirages. So it made sense to do the ROSE upgrades.

Today, you have the JFT which by far, is the most superior platform second to F-16 that the PAF's ever operated. And you own it too. I think a J-17-S or strike variant is needed to replace the Mirages. Even in Multirole capabilities, the loadout isn't that impressive (at 4 tons including additional fuel). So Mirages may be good to provide close air / ground support with limited weapons. Sending these across the border would be suicidal as there is layers of Radar and SAM coverage. Specially around the flat lands of Punjab on both sides, which is where Mirages were going to get used, in addition to the Sea. The Sea role is also limited due to limited weapons load-out and airframe / fuel limitations.

Now, you compared "old" USAF tactics against the Viets. I am sorry, Vietnam didn't really have an airforce. Hot air-baloons, if they could fly faster could also have done the work. Vietnam and India are two VERY different animals. I think we can send our old F-4's and F-5's out of Aramark today and can send them over. But I can guarantee you, they will patrol the entire Vietnam and will come back. I don't think you can make that statement about even the advance F-16's going to India and coming back without harm. So if you want to do comparisons, give me something that even sounds similar. Let alone being Apples to Apples. Thanks

He just wanted to say Mirage series will be kept in service till the fleet will be replaced by Jf-17, of course, everyone knows that the Mirage fleet is obsolete, but what we can do, it takes time to produce the Jf-17 and PAF have a restricted budge.

 

[PradoTLC]

How about we write something realistic shall we? Mirages are 50 year old platform, their airframes aren't worthy of extreme flight and maneuvers due to 40+ years of flying stress. The payload is very limited. I know the concept behind ROSE. But, that was when the PAF had nothing else besides some 1970's F-16's, some Mig-19 replicas (F-7 and A-5) and obviously, 1960's Mirages. So it made sense to do the ROSE upgrades.

RE: point is a military makes due with resources it has, PAF sending mirages to China was no accident, they obviously wanted to test tactics against superior fighters and to see if tactical objectives could still be achieved. This isnt a school match .. you can lose all your mirage strike planes but if achieves tactical objectives you still win.

RE: not really... there will other strikes planes and assets taking out the treats, like i said Mirages can tasked with lightly defended targets, Indians cant protect everything. About fuel limitations an number of Mirages have air to air refueling.

RE: really?.. and how in the intial years the USAF had an embarrassing 2:1 kill ratio?... I have studied the air war.. and it took a lot of courage and skill to take on a superpower airforce.. what they did was impressive.

RE: It is about the concept. The point us military assets no matter how old have utility. You think Germany Army in WW2 was motorised?... they still used horses, they used earlier versions of panzer and other captured tanks in all their theaters. For a Commander the more the assets the more the options.


RE: In Pakistan and india context, this will work fine. Pakistan has zero territorial claims against India except Kashmir. Pakistan will fight a defensive war and can acquit it;s self in that regard. All Pakistan Military has to give india a massive repair bill before goes crying to USA and fighting ceases.

After severe losses in 1962 and 1999 the indians ran to USA to intervene. So we know indians do not have stomach for a prolong conflict. Besides Pakistan can do other things like actually start arming Kashmiri rebels with serious fire power or any other of 22 separatist movements in India.

 

[Kompromat]

The purpose of such exercises is to learn tactics, rules of engagements and outcomes are pre set.

 

[DJ_Viper]

He just wanted to say Mirage series will be kept in service till the fleet will be replaced by Jf-17, of course, everyone knows that the Mirage fleet is obsolete, but what we can do, it takes time to produce the Jf-17 and PAF have a restricted budge.

See that's where the issue is..... the PAF IMO, wasted some precious moments. Not sure why. For example, the PAF wanted an AWACS back in the 80's. The US offered the Hawkeye. Out of anger, the PAF said no. Had that been not the case, Pakistan airforce would've become netcentric and much advanced back then. As to protect the Haweyes, the US would've to given you advanced Sparrow and other BVR missiles so you'd theoreically have become a BVR airforce much before your neighbor. That Hawkeye access would've come in handy and would prove out to be a huge capability in case you wanted to start an internal Radar project. Similarly, the French offered Mirages-2000-5 for a much reduced price. It was rejected because India has them. Then came the possibility of the Rafale around 2004-2006 and then came the J-10A. Either of these platforms would've tremendously help the PAF go towards the future. The J-10A in fact, could've become the baseline for local production as a medium fighter aircraft, instead of the JFT, which is in the lighter category. That was my point. Had these issues been taken advantage of, the Mirages from 1960's didn't have to be flying.

RE: point is a military makes due with resources it has, PAF sending mirages to China was no accident, they obviously wanted to test tactics against superior fighters and to see if tactical objectives could still be achieved. This isnt a school match .. you can lose all your mirage strike planes but if achieves tactical objectives you still win.

I understand your logic. But see my post above. You'll see the reasoning behind what I wrote to you before.

 

[CriticalThought]

See that's where the issue is..... the PAF IMO, wasted some precious moments. Not sure why. For example, the PAF wanted an AWACS back in the 80's. The US offered the Hawkeye. Out of anger, the PAF said no. Had that been not the case, Pakistan airforce would've become netcentric and much advanced back then. As to protect the Haweyes, the US would've to given you advanced Sparrow and other BVR missiles so you'd theoreically have become a BVR airforce much before your neighbor. That Hawkeye access would've come in handy and would prove out to be a huge capability in case you wanted to start an internal Radar project. Similarly, the French offered Mirages-2000-5 for a much reduced price. It was rejected because India has them. Then came the possibility of the Rafale around 2004-2006 and then came the J-10A. Either of these platforms would've tremendously help the PAF go towards the future. The J-10A in fact, could've become the baseline for local production as a medium fighter aircraft, instead of the JFT, which is in the lighter category. That was my point. Had these issues been taken advantage of, the Mirages from 1960's didn't have to be flying.



I understand your logic. But see my post above. You'll see the reasoning behind what I wrote to you before.

There is no value in flogging a dead horse. There can be counter arguments presented for each 'could have bought that' scenario. To summarize, it is very good we didn't invest limited national resources into yet another Western platform which always require huge expenditure in the long run. It is 2017 today and India never had the balls to attack us. And our future is in producing modern aircrafts indigenously. Never again do we need to give others our money to ensure our security. The Mirages will Insha Allah retire honourably and will be replaced by an indigenous platform. The Block 3 is taking shape and is looking like a real beast.

 

[DJ_Viper]

There is no value in flogging a dead horse. There can be counter arguments presented for each 'could have bought that' scenario. To summarize, it is very good we didn't invest limited national resources into yet another Western platform which always require huge expenditure in the long run. It is 2017 today and India never had the balls to attack us. And our future is in producing modern aircrafts indigenously. Never again do we need to give others our money to ensure our security. The Mirages will Insha Allah retire honourably and will be replaced by an indigenous platform. The Block 3 is taking shape and is looking like a real beast.

You ignored the entire thing. It wasn't just "western" aircrafts, nor is anyone upset at not selling 20-40 aircraft to Pakistan from the West. Its a fraction of a number compared to what they sell. There were Chinese options missed too. Anyway, I agree. Let's not beat a dead horse. I like horses so let's not even talk about a dead horse

 

[CriticalThought]

You ignored the entire thing. It wasn't just "western" aircrafts, nor is anyone upset at not selling 20-40 aircraft to Pakistan from the West. Its a fraction of a number compared to what they sell. There were Chinese options missed too. Anyway, I agree. Let's not beat a dead horse. I like horses so let's not even talk about a dead horse

The Chinese option was ignored just like off the shelf FC-31 will be ignored and off the shelf SU-35s are being ignored. The future is indigenous Insha Allah.

 

[ziaulislam]

See that's where the issue is..... the PAF IMO, wasted some precious moments. Not sure why. For example, the PAF wanted an AWACS back in the 80's. The US offered the Hawkeye. Out of anger, the PAF said no. Had that been not the case, Pakistan airforce would've become netcentric and much advanced back then. As to protect the Haweyes, the US would've to given you advanced Sparrow and other BVR missiles so you'd theoreically have become a BVR airforce much before your neighbor. That Hawkeye access would've come in handy and would prove out to be a huge capability in case you wanted to start an internal Radar project. Similarly, the French offered Mirages-2000-5 for a much reduced price. It was rejected because India has them. Then came the possibility of the Rafale around 2004-2006 and then came the J-10A. Either of these platforms would've tremendously help the PAF go towards the future. The J-10A in fact, could've become the baseline for local production as a medium fighter aircraft, instead of the JFT, which is in the lighter category. That was my point. Had these issues been taken advantage of, the Mirages from 1960's didn't have to be flying.



I understand your logic. But see my post above. You'll see the reasoning behind what I wrote to you before.

j-10 A was developed/disclosed after jf-17 so in that sense was not an option for JV so that is moot point

mirage2000 was an option but if taken before we took f-16 afterwards it was too expensive

2006 a big ticket deal was made is f-16s, there was not enough money for 9 billion dollar deal

 

[DJ_Viper]

j-10 A was developed/disclosed after jf-17 so in that sense was not an option for JV so that is moot point

mirage2000 was an option but if taken before we took f-16 afterwards it was too expensive

2006 a big ticket deal was made is f-16s, there was not enough money for 9 billion dollar deal

Understood on the cost of F-16 block 52's. On the J-10A, the PAF knew very well what was coming out. But they picked a lighter version, the JF-17. Nothing wrong with it, but in fact, Pakistan's true needs were a medium or heavy class fighters, especially considering the PAF currently faces 250 SU-30's as well as heavier Jags for strike and Mig-29's on the sea-front. It would've been much more feasible to buy and start an assembly line of J-10A and then local produce a much more heavier quality jet.

The Chinese option was ignored just like off the shelf FC-31 will be ignored and off the shelf SU-35s are being ignored. The future is indigenous Insha Allah.

Understood. The only advanced Chinese option on the table and being considered by the PAF is the J-20.

 

[CriticalThought]

Understood on the cost of F-16 block 52's. On the J-10A, the PAF knew very well what was coming out. But they picked a lighter version, the JF-17. Nothing wrong with it, but in fact, Pakistan's true needs were a medium or heavy class fighters, especially considering the PAF currently faces 250 SU-30's as well as heavier Jags for strike and Mig-29's on the sea-front. It would've been much more feasible to buy and start an assembly line of J-10A and then local produce a much more heavier quality jet.



Understood. The only advanced Chinese option on the table and being considered by the PAF is the J-20.

It doesn't work that way. You don't need a 'heavy fighter' to fight another 'heavy fighter'. JF-17 is quite up to the mark for handling SU-30s.