Some facts to clear up regarding India China

[Chronos]

Again not a comparison, just interested, just puzzles me, at most if what 'm saying is true than we will be equal, wouldn't we in the long term? Since we are both striving for the same thing just in different systems, and when we both reach it we will enjoy the same things?

If India as a Union is to survive, It needs democracy.

From the inception of India, you had the Anti-Hindi agitations in South India, Insurgencies in Nagaland, Troubles in Kashmir and the Naxal movement sprouting up in the East.

In order for an authoritarian system to work, either the government has to draw support support from a sizeable ethnic, linguistic, religious group.

IMO, such a move would have amplified the resentment among those insurgent groups.

When British left India, it made sense for India to become a democracy, as it would be seen as highly hypocritical then for Indians to turn around and practice colonialism themselves.

@Genesis your focus is on Economic growth, but my approach is cultural. Even when you hark back to the Mauryan and Gupta Empire, the Emperors demanded a tribute from the local vassal kings, and did not interfere at all in the local matters.

India was forged out of 500 kingdoms. If people knew that the Union was going to be a dictatorship, I think the Insurgencies India experienced would have been magnified threefold.

Democracy provided at least an illusion of having a voice. It at least allowed Dravidian activitiss of the South to temper their claims for a separate homeland.

 

[halupridol]

now we are getting somewhere.

you are right method 1 is no guarantee, but as you said neither is method 2. They both guarantee the same thing, in 10 years Chinese leaders will change, in 5 or 10 years Indian leaders will do the same thing, I'm assuming one persona can't run for a third term?

So in essence without election, we are still kicking out the government in 10 years and a new batch will be in. From Xi's talk public opinion does matter to him clearly, and a few of his acts clearly demonstrates this.

This doesn't mean method 1 is better than 2, ooh no. But what it does mean is that method 1 will eventually become method 3.

So having said that what is right in this issue?

a little freedom for a long time then Freedom forever? Or no freedom for a short time than freedom forever?

bottomline....there is no perfect method,,,,,
but trust me when I say this sooner or later China too will adopt method 2....

 

[dray]

@DRAY @Genesis

Democracy is not a tool for fool and uneducated. Isn't it better to make people worthy of having democracy first and then gets democratic, the same way china will become eventually?

Just take an example of your family. The day you become sane and competent, people start taking your opinion in decision making.

Two problems, one is India specific, authoritarian system will not work in a diverse country like India, India is an union only fit for a democracy, we have to improve it, there is no other alternative.

Second problem is a common one with any authoritarian Govt., they do well for some time, but eventually they fail because of the rising discontent among people and no available system in place to ease the pressure of rising discontent. You will see major social & political unrest once the Chinese growth engine slows down, which is again bound to happen at some point in future.

More often than not such social & political unrest results into civil wars because an authoritarian Govt. would not like to let go its power and control over the country so easily.

 

[Genesis]

bottomline....there is no perfect method,,,,,
but trust me when I say this sooner or later China too will adopt method 2....

I don't think so, if I were to expand on it, our method would be 1.9 instead of 2.

We would allow any that is allowed in a democracy, except we don't do elections, you might ask how that could be possible.


The simple answer is the people would work WITH the government, instead of just letting some people represent you. The government would be a friend and a co-worker, instead of leader.

The government wouldn't be the leaders of society, but a part of society, they do their part we do our part, we all contribute to the greatness of the Chinese nation.

That I think is the final form of China.

 

[Chronos]

I don't think so, if I were to expand on it, our method would be 1.9 instead of 2.

We would allow any that is allowed in a democracy, except we don't do elections, you might ask how that could be possible.


The simple answer is the people would work WITH the government, instead of just letting some people represent you. The government would be a friend and a co-worker, instead of leader.

The government wouldn't be the leaders of society, but a part of society, they do their part we do our part, we all contribute to the greatness of the Chinese nation.

That I think is the final form of China.

I don't know, for me, if the Chinese system were to be implemented in India, It would just turn into a tinpot African dictatorship with civil wars everywhere I think.

I hardly think Indians have the discipline, nor the will to follow an authoritarian writ.

 

[PoKeMon]

Two problems, one is India specific, authoritarian system will not work in a diverse country like India, India is an union only fit for a democracy, we have to improve it, there is no other alternative.

Second problem is a common one with any authoritarian Govt., they do well for some time, but eventually they fail because of the rising discontent among people and no available system in place to ease the pressure of rising discontent. You will see major social & political unrest once the Chinese growth engine slows down, which is again bound to happen at some point in future.

More often than not such social & political unrest results into civil wars because an authoritarian Govt. would not like to let go its power and control over the country so easily.

Uneducated and fool can be ruled by any ways - democratic or authoritarian. Just the rules of the game changes.
Even now we democratically elect our own monarch and I dont find any lack of authority in chosen ones. They act like they are born to rule. So lets us not see thing through theoretical glasses, one should look at alternatives, no point in being adamant and keep harming yourself.

Sometime I feel China is bad mouthed about human rights violation and bla bla just to feel good about not so good doing democracies. A common men is equally oppressed by system gurus here in India as well.

 

[halupridol]

I don't think so, if I were to expand on it, our method would be 1.9 instead of 2.

We would allow any that is allowed in a democracy, except we don't do elections, you might ask how that could be possible.


The simple answer is the people would work WITH the government, instead of just letting some people represent you. The government would be a friend and a co-worker, instead of leader.

The government wouldn't be the leaders of society, but a part of society, they do their part we do our part, we all contribute to the greatness of the Chinese nation.

That I think is the final form of China.

now my friend u r talking like a idealist....
like I said in the long run u will adopt method2,,nothing less....

 

[JSCh]

Indian choose whatever system that fit them. Ditto for China.

Chinese is responsible for their system of government.

Whether Chinese is right or wrong, Chinese is the one that would suffer the consequence of their decision/action.

What they ask is this,

Can everyone else respect their choice?

 

[halupridol]

Indian choose whatever system that fit them. Ditto for China.

Chinese is responsible for their system of government.

Whether Chinese is right or wrong, Chinese is the one that would suffer the consequence of their decision/action.

What they ask is this,

Can everyone else respect their choice?

ur land ur rule.....

 

[Edison Chen]

For China, with the rise of the education level, and with more and more information coming in from the outside world, with more and more exposure to the outside world, people will demand more freedom, they will start questioning the Govt., and any oppression to curb it may result into a social unrest and even a civil war, I think eventually China will have to shift to some form of democracy, something that we would have perfected by then.

I agree with this paragraph, the bold words.

It's called awareness of civil rights. Now many people can query our govt, not like the old days. As I said earlier, we need to improve our judicial system first. The majority negative votes in our congress went for Chinese Chief Procuratorate and Supreme Court.

 

[halupridol]

I agree with this paragraph, the bold words.

It's called awareness of civil rights. Now many people can query our govt, not like the old days. As I said earlier, we need to improve our judicial system first. The majority negative votes in our congress went for Chinese Chief Procuratorate and Supreme Court.

whos that in ur avatar??

 

[Edison Chen]

whos that in ur avatar??

It's me, do you believe?

 

[SMStealth]

Hoping for some Indian members to give us your thoughts. This isn't a comparison, but what I'm more interested in know is what your opinion is on what I'm about to say.


When comparing China Indian, many go for the argument that India is a work in progress and will be better in the long term, personally I have no problem with that, what I do find puzzling is the reasoning.


The reasons usually given is that India is a democracy, and China is not. India's democracy will get better as people become more educated and richer.


So here lives my question, if we assume this to be true, then the effectiveness of democracy depends on prosperity and living standards. In essence these two things is what makes a democracy a democracy.

Then what China is doing is exactly raising these two things, but at a faster rate, with a different system no less.



So if we are to look at India China in a vacuum, no political systems. We just look at prosperity and living standards, would one make the assumption that China would get the benefits of a "liberal democracy?"

If we are to also assume that the benefits of a "liberal democracy" depends largely on prosperity and living standards.



In other words, let's not use the word democracy, but let's use standards, freedom, justice, high living standards. These are the benefits of said system, electing a leader falls in justice, or fair.




So to sum up, all the benefits I listed above is dependent on economy and education. So why would India be better in the long run if what China is doing is raising the economy and education, which if we are to isolate things, is the thing that drives freedom, justice, living standards, and more?


Again not a comparison, just interested, just puzzles me, at most if what 'm saying is true than we will be equal, wouldn't we in the long term? Since we are both striving for the same thing just in different systems, and when we both reach it we will enjoy the same things?

First of all a nice question buddy.

Now as @DRAY has already explained, both the system have their merits & demerits. Method 1 (which China chose) has achieved a lot more than what Method 2 (Indian method) has so far but in the Long term when the masses become educated they will ask for more rights and the govt will have to give into their demand coz if they do not then there will be civilian unrest which may lead to a Civil War.
An example is the restriction in China for number of kids a couple can have, now they have relaxed it. So in essence the Method 1 will have to incorporate the merits of Method 2 & that will take it more closer to being a Democracy.

You have taken Method 3 (Canadian system) as a benchmark which in itself is a Democracy with more freedom to its citizens along with a better Standard of Living. And that is what both Method 1 & 2 are trying to achieve. However, for Method 1 to reach Method 3 it will have to come as closer to Method 2 without which it may not reach Method 3.

 

[halupridol]

It's me, do you believe?

just that it is quite similar to my cousin.....too similar...its kind of weird

 

[Edison Chen]

just that it is quite similar to my cousin.....too similar...its kind of weird

You serious....Your cousin? He is Indian, right?...How?