Some facts to clear up regarding India China

[dray]

Cut this regional crap. South Indians are the ones electing Rajas, Yedurappas. They are so separate that they fail to give any sort of leadership to united India in last 6 decades. Just helping out either congress or BJP in making government.

And the part I was talking about wasn't some remote backward area but NCR i.e. National Capital Region. The local leader always want to induct more of his supporters name in voters list.

First thing first, do you have any realistic workable solution? Please elaborate on that, only criticism of the existing system will not solve anything.

second, southern part of India is doing very well in terms of development and economy in comparison to many north Indian state, their politicians at least work.

Third, a new addition to our electoral system is the "Election Commission", and they are doing brilliantly, election rigging and manipulation have reduced a lot due to Election Commission, that's how you find solution to a problem and evolve.

If I am not very wrong then I am discussing with someone very young, thus very impatient, I maybe wrong though.

 

[PoKeMon]

But you would agree that things have improved a lot since those days, election commission is doing a good job, and rigging in election have reduced to a negligible level, at least in most of the states.

As much as I would like to believe that things have improved, the sole reality hits me when I see super educated folks giving away their votes based on same caste, influence and monetary gains one can get from a specific politician.

Rigging or no rigging, what does it matter when people are casting there votes non-judicially.

And again, do you have any realistic workable option?

Lack of alternate solution doesn't undermine the flaws in current one and right now I am doing the fault finding.

Ok so here is the solution (which I am shooting off my hips) -

Democracy should not be absolute. One should not get voting rights just because they are indians and above a certain age, one should earn the right to decide future of 1.2 billion people.

Make education a necessary criteria. If not a formal one then at least we can have a customized exam to check the mental readiness of our people. Such exam should not have theoretical questions but should judge the common understanding like- One should know what is a MP if they are going to elect one, what he is obliged to do. Basics of administration and how can their vote can influence the future of the nation. Voters should know on what basis one should vote.

We should not educate the voters, rather educated one should get the voting privilege. When I said educated, it doesn't means formal education.

Just a thought, not a complete solution.

First thing first, do you have any realistic workable solution? Please elaborate on that, only criticism of the existing system will not solve anything.

second, southern part of India is doing very well in terms of development and economy in comparison to many north Indian state, their politicians at least work.

Third, a new addition to our electoral system is the "Election Commission", and they are doing brilliantly, election rigging and manipulation have reduced a lot due to Election Commission, that's how you find solution to a problem and evolve.

If I am not very wrong then I am discussing with someone very young, thus very impatient, I maybe wrong though.

Answered your queries in my last post.

And you are talking to a consultant in world's largest consulting firm. So dont worry, not a kid.

 

[SrNair]

Cut this regional crap. South Indians are the ones electing Rajas, Yedurappas. They are so separate that they fail to give any sort of leadership to united India in last 6 decades. Just helping out either congress or BJP in making government.

And the part I was talking about wasn't some remote backward area but NCR i.e. National Capital Region. The local leader always want to induct more of his supporters name in voters list.

I am from kerala.Not TN or Karnataka.As far as I know no such things happened in Kerala after 2000.Some disturbances can see in Kannur like booth seizing.But election commision conduct repoll with sufficient security.Your dream of US democracy will not work in India.Because India is unique.

 

[PoKeMon]

I am from kerala.Not TN or Karnataka.As far as I know no such think is hot happen in Kerala after 2000.Some disturbances can see in Kannur like booth seizing.But election commision conduct repoll with sufficient security.Your dream of US democracy will not work in India.Because India is unique.

India is unique, nothing will work.

India is so diversified, nothing else will work.

India is this, India is that, so stick with the flawed system.

Looks like the statement coming out from a beneficiary of this corrupt and inefficient system. Isn't it? Why being so cynical of a change. Changes are not always bad.

Mate, what difference a booth capturing will make, when we ourselves cast our vote on wrong grounds? My problem is with mentality of ours which corrupt our vote and that result in a corrupt system.

 

[SrNair]

As much as I would like to believe that things have improved, the sole reality hits me when I see super educated folks giving away their votes based on same caste, influence and monetary gains one can get from a specific politician.

Rigging or no rigging, what does it matter when people are casting there votes non-judicially.



Lack of alternate solution doesn't undermine the flaws in current one and right now I am doing the fault finding.

Ok so here is the solution (which I am shooting off my hips) -

Democracy should not be absolute. One should not get voting rights just because they are indians and above a certain age, one should earn the right to decide future of 1.2 billion people.

Make education a necessary criteria. If not a formal one then at least we can have a customized exam to check the mental readiness of our people. Such exam should not have theoretical questions but should judge the common understanding like- One should know what is a MP if they are going to elect one, what he is obliged to do. Basics of administration and how can their vote can influence the future of the nation. Voters should know on what basis one should vote.

We should not educate the voters, rather educated one should get the voting privilege. When I said educated, it doesn't means formal education.

Just a thought, not a complete solution.



Answered your queries in my last post.

And you are talking to a consultant in worlds largest consulting firm. So dont worry, not a kid.

Your awareness about India is already in your post itself.
That is why I am told India is unique.No education can change that.But it will change eventually.That is why we got a low caste leader as our PM candidate in BJP.An lot of people support him both high caste and low caste.No one can see such a situation 40 years ago

India is unique, nothing will work.

India is so diversified, nothing else will work.

India is this, India is that, so stick with the flawed system.

Looks like the statement coming out from a beneficiary of this corrupt and inefficient system. Isn't it? Why being so cynical of a change. Changes are not always bad.

Mate, what difference a booth capturing will make, when we ourselves cast our vote on wrong grounds? My problem is with mentality of ours which corrupt our vote and that result in a corrupt system.

AAP do that and look what we got.It is easy to pass statements with keyboard and a PC.I am not a beneficary of any corrupt practices.But you cant change the mentality of Indians.Just look at the UP and their parties.Parties like SP or BSP will not last a single year if they work in Kerala like the way they work in UP.Now where is the problem and solutions.Problems are created by us so solutions also in our hand.Peoples behaviour changes from North to South.As a country you must accomodate all this people.First you need a good education .But education alone can solve all the problems.It will also take some time.Same caste also a problem in Kerala.But it influence started to decline after 1990.Our neighbouring constituency is reserved for SC/ST .But people in that constituency will select same MLA again .Because he did a lot of development in Mavellikara constituency and both high caste and low caste will vote for him.And that is a real change

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

We will remain at method 2 only and try to perfect it, but you have to gradually move closure to method 2 because method 1 will be unsustainable in the long run. Now the process for that gradual shift can be peaceful or violent, and that will decide whether the benefits derived from method 1 remain sustainable in the long run or they get wasted.

Whenever people criticize the Chinese model of developing growth (much of the time for good reason)... in the end it always seems to hinge on "wait and see what happens to you later on".

Well, we have been waiting since 1989 for this predicted "collapse", meanwhile every other country has gone through multiple economic collapses in the same frame... while we are still growing the fastest out of any major economy, with a base GDP now of $9.3 trillion.

And what is so bad about a collapse in Government anyway? Governments collapse all the time all over the world. If you look at the Arab Spring for instance, the only real result seems to be going back to the status quo.

I live in a city (Hong Kong) that is ranked the #2 best in Asia in terms of press freedom, and has a constitutional guarantee to free speech.

And I visit the mainland regularly, where free speech is supposedly restricted. I can say for certain that 99% of ordinary people are not affected by the so-called restrictions on free speech, just listen to the things they spew against the Government on a daily basis.

These 99% of the population, the ordinary people, who are living ordinary lives, they benefit the most from economic growth rather than anything else. When China is a developed country, at that point political liberalization will be a much higher priority.

Just my opinion. @Genesis.

 

[Gandhi G in da house]

Hoping for some Indian members to give us your thoughts. This isn't a comparison, but what I'm more interested in know is what your opinion is on what I'm about to say.


When comparing China Indian, many go for the argument that India is a work in progress and will be better in the long term, personally I have no problem with that, what I do find puzzling is the reasoning.


The reasons usually given is that India is a democracy, and China is not. India's democracy will get better as people become more educated and richer.


So here lives my question, if we assume this to be true, then the effectiveness of democracy depends on prosperity and living standards. In essence these two things is what makes a democracy a democracy.

Then what China is doing is exactly raising these two things, but at a faster rate, with a different system no less.



So if we are to look at India China in a vacuum, no political systems. We just look at prosperity and living standards, would one make the assumption that China would get the benefits of a "liberal democracy?"

If we are to also assume that the benefits of a "liberal democracy" depends largely on prosperity and living standards.



In other words, let's not use the word democracy, but let's use standards, freedom, justice, high living standards. These are the benefits of said system, electing a leader falls in justice, or fair.




So to sum up, all the benefits I listed above is dependent on economy and education. So why would India be better in the long run if what China is doing is raising the economy and education, which if we are to isolate things, is the thing that drives freedom, justice, living standards, and more?


Again not a comparison, just interested, just puzzles me, at most if what 'm saying is true than we will be equal, wouldn't we in the long term? Since we are both striving for the same thing just in different systems, and when we both reach it we will enjoy the same things?

China is doing better . You should be happy with that. Nobody can predict the future. Rest I know why you started this thread.

 

[Genesis]

@DRAY

No, you are not kicking out the government, the government is of Chinese Communist Party (CCP) and it remains, it is just the change of the leadership position within the party as well as in the country, the whole affair is an internal affair of the party, in USSR or in NK the heads changed, but will you call it a change of government? (I am not comparing them with China though). A true change of government is only possible if there are more than one party to choose from.

That's a misconception, it is a change of government, in fact I would argue that it's a bigger change than if your BJP gets elected. Why do I say that? BJP is still a democratic party there's only so much that it can do, add to the fact of decades of rule by congress the root is deep and they cannot be moved simply because they lost an election.

Chinese government changes far more, from Deng, mass economic reform, to Jiang more reforms, to Hu, creating stability, to Xi, mass reforms.

They didn't have election campaigns, but they certainly delivered.

We change in reality rather than in name, while a democracy also changes in reality, but mostly in name.

China today, you can say is different from now and say Hu years, and Jiang years, is Obama years different that Bush years?

Chinese political systems has shifted from Soviet communist government to our old, but improved Chinese style government of old. Except the head is ever changing and he doesn't have so much power.

This one is true, more or less the difference would be like that, but it won't be that simple though. For India, we being a federal country can't follow the 2nd option, for us 1st option will remain the most suitable option in spite of its perceived inefficiencies. And for China, the "Freedom forever" part may be difficult in true sense, CCP being a authoritarian communist party won't easily let the absolute power & control go out of its hand, there will be resistance from the party, and we are already witnessing some of that resistance, it would be a great achievement for the Chinese people if the transition process remains non-violent. And by freedom I mean true freedom, similar to something Canadians enjoy, as you have lived in Canada and witnessed, not the restricted & monitored ones with constant fear of repercussions.

There is no fear and repercussions, that's a misconception, we had that in the cultural revolution, we don't have that now. Nobody in China is wondering am I going to jail for no reason or for talking. This is a biased Western view, have you noticed that it's the same few names they keep parading? China is a nation of 1.3 billion, but they have been using that blind dude and Uygar professor for the past a long time.

CCP is now in name only, not because they are capitalist, but because anyone can join the party which just makes this the Chinese government.

As to handing over of power, that depends on what you mean. I still don't think Chinese wants a Western system, it doesn't mean we will stick with what we have, but we will improve it based on experience and need.

A example, a Chinese military colonel when discussing Chinese tank rankings, he said that these ranks don't make sense, America fights in desert terrain and thus uses a heavy tank, China fights in hills and forests. An American tank will not be very effective in China while a Chinese tank would be outmatched in the middle east. Also why Pakistan made changes to the the MBT-2000 to their own version, each to suit their own.

Yes, but I would say method 3 doesn't exist as a different system of governance, it is just a more polished & evolved version of method 2, as per the way Genesis categorized it, method 1 is a authoritarian communist Govt., method 2 is democracy, and he said method 3 is something similar to Canadian democracy, which is more evolved than Indian democracy, but it is a democracy, so method 3 is not a different system, but a matured version of Indian democracy which we are trying to achieve by improving the quality of our electorate.

It can look that way but I'm not talking about the democracy I'm talking the result. Step 3 to me is the achievement of freedom, of prosperity of high living standards.

I think we will both get there, in terms of result we will have the same, more or less, but in terms of system we will not be the same.