Solo Turk Over Sargodha

[Indus Falcon]

You are forgetting the G forces sir----.

Right!! 9G vs 50+G big difference

 

[MastanKhan]

I was talking about when missile is in static position, before being fired. Gimbal can not move on its own, only after it is fired gimbal movements will began.

Which means gimbal movement was not being utilized fully until HMDS came into play. It eliminated radar lock entirely. Now you train seeker (controlling gimbal movement) through your helmet



This is what I had in mind when arguing the applicability of TVC in WVR

Indian air force pilots (IAF) flying their Su-30MKI Flankers provided stiff opposition for a UK Royal Air Force (RAF) Eurofighter Typhoon squadron during air combat maneuvering exercises just ended in the UK. Senior officers from both the IAF and the RAF were unwilling to discuss details, but AIN understands from informed sources with knowledge of the exercise that, in close combat, the thrust vector control (TVC) on the heavier Flankers more than compensated for the greater thrust-to-weight ratio of the Typhoon

Hi,

The important question over here is---at what speed you would employ the TVC----an average dog fight is between 300---450 knots----. Both the pilots can pull 9 G's-----but at 450 knot for the SU 30 to pull a TVC stunt would be like submitting the pilot to 20--30 G's---and doing it at 300 knots would be like 15--20 G's.

The question is---how many G's would the aircraft be pulling when the TVC is deployed----?

Right!! 9G vs 50+G big difference

Hi,

So here is something interesting that is out there----. The reason the speed of the missiles has gone higher is to keep the aircraft within the reach of the missile's umbrella and reduce the time to escape.

But the problem with mach 4 and mach 5 and +++ missiles is that they cannot turn fast enough with the aircraft.

For an aircraft crusing to escape from the missile and making an abrupt 9 G turn to avoid the missile will escape the missile---because a missile travelling at 3000---3500 mph would need pull 350--450 G to match the aircraft's G's to keep the target in focus---.

And that many G's is impossible for the missile to pull----but the benefit for the missile is that it is giving the pilot an extremely little window of escape---so any error on the part pf the pilot---he is history----but then there is that proximity fuse in the missile head---where it sese an aircraft within a certain distance and it blows itself up.

 

[Neptune]

That would be Squadron leader Faisal

Btw Captain Wolf ( ) is the same soloturk pilot who made the extremely low flying landing at UK airport ?



but As far as I know, that gimbal rotation is mated with HMDS. It can not move on its own.

That would be Squadron leader Faisal

Btw Captain Wolf ( ) is the same soloturk pilot who made the extremely low flying landing at UK airport ?



but As far as I know, that gimbal rotation is mated with HMDS. It can not move on its own.

Lol. No that was Maj. Yalın who laterly resigned from the Air Force, now he is flying for the Turkish Airlines.

 

[Windjammer]

 

[Donatello]

I was talking about when missile is in static position, before being fired. Gimbal can not move on its own, only after it is fired gimbal movements will began.

Which means gimbal movement was not being utilized fully until HMDS came into play. It eliminated radar lock entirely. Now you train seeker (controlling gimbal movement) through your helmet



This is what I had in mind when arguing the applicability of TVC in WVR

The whole idea of current generation and future IR missiles is that their gimbal alone allows the seeker to look for lock on the target. So you wouldn't even need the aircraft radar, except for getting the 'range' intercept, that is, how far the target is.

Modern IR sensors have improved alot. You can see different variants within the AIM9 family. It is very easy to get a lock at a typical 10-20km range, because the modern CMOS sensors are very good.

That is why they say it is 4th gen or 5th gen IR missile.

Also, the new idea is that the missile's seeker can act as a live IR video search and track feed on the pilots MFDs.......that means if the aircraft does not possess an IRST system, as long as the missile is hanging on the pylon, the pilot can use it's seeker to search the space......also called the Infrared Imaging Seeker......as produced in AIM9X, ASRAAM, PL-10 etc.

HMDS or not, this capability is present regardless. If i can let the missile search and lock on it's own target, it then becomes a true fire and forget missile. For IR WVR combat we are looking at a few 10-30 of km distance, which again, modern seekers can easily look beyond. Gone are the old days of Vietnam war when a IR missile launch went haywire because the seeker got confused with the Sun shining in the front and thus went for it.

This is the reason why Rafale excels in IR spectrum.....it can search the sky passively looking for heat signature and then guide the missile that way as well. This would not be possible in 1980s or earlier, because the CMOS or CCD infrared sensors were never that good....just like any other semiconductor technology, it only improves with time.


Go to this page and have a look at how the IRIS-T seeker works:
IRIS-T - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is a video on the top left of the article.

Hi,

The important question over here is---at what speed you would employ the TVC----an average dog fight is between 300---450 knots----. Both the pilots can pull 9 G's-----but at 450 knot for the SU 30 to pull a TVC stunt would be like submitting the pilot to 20--30 G's---and doing it at 300 knots would be like 15--20 G's.

The question is---how many G's would the aircraft be pulling when the TVC is deployed----?




Hi,

So here is something interesting that is out there----. The reason the speed of the missiles has gone higher is to keep the aircraft within the reach of the missile's umbrella and reduce the time to escape.

But the problem with mach 4 and mach 5 and +++ missiles is that they cannot turn fast enough with the aircraft.

For an aircraft crusing to escape from the missile and making an abrupt 9 G turn to avoid the missile will escape the missile---because a missile travelling at 3000---3500 mph would need pull 350--450 G to match the aircraft's G's to keep the target in focus---.

And that many G's is impossible for the missile to pull----but the benefit for the missile is that it is giving the pilot an extremely little window of escape---so any error on the part pf the pilot---he is history----but then there is that proximity fuse in the missile head---where it sese an aircraft within a certain distance and it blows itself up.

Well, another point is, any aircraft fully loaded, cannot pull 9Gs and that too at supersonic speeds. 9G and Mach2.0 speeds, these are very funky terms.......aircraft have strict limits to how much Gs they can pull at what speed and what loadout along with altitude. If you are fighting at 20-30k feet the drag is higher not only on the aircraft but the payload (fuel tanks etc) that it might be carrying......and as the air resistance is a function that when the speed doubles, the air drag increases by a square.....you can see a big problem with the dynamics here.

It is not easy, therefore moving foreword, we want the missiles to do all the hard work out and let the launch aircraft escape from far.

 

[nomi007]

hope we will also convert 1 f-16 in to

pakistan solo star

 

[Saad Bin Munim]

 

[Foxtrot-Bravo]

Here you go ... !!

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=755806967880704

 

[MastanKhan]

The whole idea of current generation and future IR missiles is that their gimbal alone allows the seeker to look for lock on the target. So you wouldn't even need the aircraft radar, except for getting the 'range' intercept, that is, how far the target is.

Modern IR sensors have improved alot. You can see different variants within the AIM9 family. It is very easy to get a lock at a typical 10-20km range, because the modern CMOS sensors are very good.

That is why they say it is 4th gen or 5th gen IR missile.

Also, the new idea is that the missile's seeker can act as a live IR video search and track feed on the pilots MFDs.......that means if the aircraft does not possess an IRST system, as long as the missile is hanging on the pylon, the pilot can use it's seeker to search the space......also called the Infrared Imaging Seeker......as produced in AIM9X, ASRAAM, PL-10 etc.

HMDS or not, this capability is present regardless. If i can let the missile search and lock on it's own target, it then becomes a true fire and forget missile. For IR WVR combat we are looking at a few 10-30 of km distance, which again, modern seekers can easily look beyond. Gone are the old days of Vietnam war when a IR missile launch went haywire because the seeker got confused with the Sun shining in the front and thus went for it.

This is the reason why Rafale excels in IR spectrum.....it can search the sky passively looking for heat signature and then guide the missile that way as well. This would not be possible in 1980s or earlier, because the CMOS or CCD infrared sensors were never that good....just like any other semiconductor technology, it only improves with time.


Go to this page and have a look at how the IRIS-T seeker works:
IRIS-T - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
There is a video on the top left of the article.



Well, another point is, any aircraft fully loaded, cannot pull 9Gs and that too at supersonic speeds. 9G and Mach2.0 speeds, these are very funky terms.......aircraft have strict limits to how much Gs they can pull at what speed and what loadout along with altitude. If you are fighting at 20-30k feet the drag is higher not only on the aircraft but the payload (fuel tanks etc) that it might be carrying......and as the air resistance is a function that when the speed doubles, the air drag increases by a square.....you can see a big problem with the dynamics here.

It is not easy, therefore moving foreword, we want the missiles to do all the hard work out and let the launch aircraft escape from far.

Hi,

I don't think I mentioned mach 2 and 9 G's----. Normal cruise speed is around 500--550 knots---.

As you fly higher---the drag gets lesser and lesser, because air gets thinner and thinner----.

At first sign of engagement---fuel tanks are dumped right away---all the extra weight is gone---.

The aircraft would launch its own BVR's if it has them----. So---the wvr missiles---and ammo for the gun is extra weight.

 

[Jango]

Hi,

The important question over here is---at what speed you would employ the TVC----an average dog fight is between 300---450 knots----. Both the pilots can pull 9 G's-----but at 450 knot for the SU 30 to pull a TVC stunt would be like submitting the pilot to 20--30 G's---and doing it at 300 knots would be like 15--20 G's.

The question is---how many G's would the aircraft be pulling when the TVC is deployed----?

Just to point out, TVC isn't a fixed maneuver that it will pull those many G's...TVC can be subtly applied as well, as you can see in a multitude of videos on the net.

You don't need to pull an extra 15 G's just to shorten your turning radius by a bit.

 

[MastanKhan]

Just to point out, TVC isn't a fixed maneuver that it will pull those many G's...TVC can be subtly applied as well, as you can see in a multitude of videos on the net.

You don't need to pull an extra 15 G's just to shorten your turning radius by a bit.

Hi,

We are not talking about this subtle movement of thrust vectoring----. What is being discussed is immediate and maximum thrust vectoring to change position immediately and instantly to the maximum----.

 

[Donatello]

Hi,

I don't think I mentioned mach 2 and 9 G's----. Normal cruise speed is around 500--550 knots---.

As you fly higher---the drag gets lesser and lesser, because air gets thinner and thinner----.

At first sign of engagement---fuel tanks are dumped right away---all the extra weight is gone---.

The aircraft would launch its own BVR's if it has them----. So---the wvr missiles---and ammo for the gun is extra weight.

I didn't mean to say that you said Mach 2.0 and 9Gs....i was referring in general to the technical illiterate audience here....many people look up the specs of a fighter on paper....and be like this F-16 or Rafale can do Mach 2.1 and pull 9Gs....what they forget is to mention at what speed and altitude and what loadout can they pull this off.

A fully loaded F-16 cannot do that ....the wings will literally tear off......even if the fuel tanks are dumped.....you still got 4xBVR and 2xWVR missiles....that is almost a 800-1000kgs on your extreme ends of the wings.....the G loading will increase the apparent weight. So for example, F-16s are on a Strike mission, carrying two 2000lb-ers on the inner pylons, a centerline tank and CFTs for the strike range. Then it is also carrying the standard AIM120s and AIM9s......as it approaches the target....it is intercepted by enemy fighters........in that situation....even a lightly loaded point intercept MIG21 will give F-16 a workout of it's life. Even if you dump the fuel tank (centerline) you are still carrying the 2000lb JDAMs.....now what do you do? You dump them as well, missing your target but saving your *** from enemy fighters? Or are you crazy enough to push yourself into a dogfight with those bombs still loaded on your pylons which will seriously affect the maximum speed you can play and accelerate to (since the plane is heavy) and of course your G loading.
Also, you mention the altitude, that is good, but remember you are being intercepted by the enemy fighters......you don't have the luxury of simply climbing to 50,000ft.....you will varying your altitude and speed a lot.

Now this scenario is valid for all fighters, be it F-15s or Rafale.

Think of it in a simpler manner........car manufacturers quote a MPG figure for a car......what they don't really explain is under what circumstances can you achieve that in real time? What speed? Gear? Above all, how many people loaded in the car and any luggage in the trunk? Windows open or A/C on?

If you think a 24MPG car will give you that at 30MPH and also at 80MPH.....you are in a for surprise.

In short, lots of variables out there.

 

[bsruzm]

Now that's what you call a dedicated fan.

A Pakistani woman greets a Turkish Air Force's Solo Turk pilot Yusuf Kurt (C) after they perform a demonstration flight as a part of contingent participation in the joint air exercise called Indus Viper-2015 at PAF Base Mushaf, located at Sargodha in the Punjab province of Pakistan on October 15, 2015.

View attachment 264808


A Pakistani woman greets a Turkish Air Force's Solo Turk pilot Yusuf Kurt (C) after they perform a demonstration flight as a part of contingent participation in the joint air exercise called Indus Viper-2015 at PAF Base

 

[Neptune]

HVKK Official Release on SOLOTURK's demonstration in Pakistan. Air Combat and Missile Defense Command's deputy commander has represented the HVKK throughout the demonstration and Indus Viper.

Making our youth smile, is worth everything in my opinion @Horus.

 

[truthseeker2010]

@Bratva @Donatello I have no clue what you guys are talking about with all this TVC, WVC whatever. Let me enjoy this thread with all these heart warming pictures yaar !

TVC: thrust vector control
Thrust vectoring - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WVC: Within Visual range Combat or dog fighting.

So IMO they are basically talking about usefulness of SU-30MKI's in the air combat, the main stay of indian air force