Society, Women and Behashti Zewar

[VCheng]

Islam does excuse people from "Fasting" in situations like when you are travelling, when you are sick etc

My question was broader than that. What if there is a permanent space station or planetary base? Surely the exemptions you mention cannot be permanent in such a case, therefore modification of the rules governing such religious practices must be possible, if Islam is a religion for all times to come. Or should we limit Islam to Earth and that too excluding the areas beyond the Arctic and Antarctic Circles?

That is the basic question to answer: If Islam is for all times to come, can it remain unchanging and unyielding? Yes, the basic must remain the same, but most, if not all, implementations of those basics must adapt to changing times across centuries and millennia. Indeed, if we look back at history, that already has happened, whether we accept it or not, not just in Islam, but across all major religions.

Allah doesn't "define" roles per se.

But isn't it the contention mentioned here many times that Allah has indeed ordained the roles as scholars in centuries gone by have established, such as explained in BZ?

 

[FaujHistorian]

....



But isn't it the contention mentioned here many times that Allah has indeed ordained the roles as scholars in centuries gone by have established, such as explained in BZ?

As I said, PDF is not the best source of what is ordained by Allah and what is not. Please read Sura Nisa (chapter 4) by yourself. and see if what you just posted is correct indeed.

 

[VCheng]

As I said, PDF is not the best source of what is ordained by Allah and what is not. Please read Sura Nisa (chapter 4) by yourself. and see if what you just posted is correct indeed.

I have read Sura Nisa, as well as the rest of the Quran, many times. What has been ordained is quite clear but basic, and its the application that makes all the difference. What books like BZ do, as shown in the OP, is distort those basics into something quite fantastically inapplicable and unfair.

 

[FaujHistorian]

I have read Sura Nisa, as well as the rest of the Quran, many times. What has been ordained is quite clear but basic,

But that contradicts your post #181

 

[VCheng]

But that contradicts your post #181

How so? Please explain what contradiction you see in what I have posted.

 

[FaujHistorian]

How so? Please explain what contradiction you see in what I have posted.

you studied BZ too?

 

[Zarvan]

My question was broader than that. What if there is a permanent space station or planetary base? Surely the exemptions you mention cannot be permanent in such a case, therefore modification of the rules governing such religious practices must be possible, if Islam is a religion for all times to come. Or should we limit Islam to Earth and that too excluding the areas beyond the Arctic and Antarctic Circles?

That is the basic question to answer: If Islam is for all times to come, can it remain unchanging and unyielding? Yes, the basic must remain the same, but most, if not all, implementations of those basics must adapt to changing times across centuries and millennia. Indeed, if we look back at history, that already has happened, whether we accept it or not, not just in Islam, but across all major religions.



But isn't it the contention mentioned here many times that Allah has indeed ordained the roles as scholars in centuries gone by have established, such as explained in BZ?

Than Ijtihad will be done

 

[VCheng]

you studied BZ too?

A while ago now, we a copy too that was given to my mother.

 

[FaujHistorian]

A while ago now, we a copy too that was given to my mother.

OK, I hope you don't mind me asking. As I intend no disrespect to you or anyone.

Did she or another female in the family complain about specific page/passage in BZ?

 

[VCheng]

Than Ijtihad will be done

So you accept Ijtihad as the mechanism for updating Islam according to a changing world to keep it relevant. Good!

OK, I hope you don't mind me asking. As I intend no disrespect to you or anyone.

Did she or another female in the family complain about specific page/passage in BZ?

Let's just say that the real life as practiced was very different that what was preached, just like the best Pakistani traditions in so many matters.

 

[FaujHistorian]

So you accept Ijtihad as the mechanism for updating Islam according to a changing world to keep it relevant. Good!

Ijtihad is a wonderful concept.

But the study of religions show that Ijtihad is only applicable in first 100-300 years of a new religion.

After that, the religion is cast in stone and thus unchangeable.

If you do try to change, you will simply create new sect if not a brand new religion.

Sorry I don't want to distract from the main topic.

 

[VCheng]

Ijtihad is a wonderful concept.

But the study of religions show that Ijtihad is only applicable in first 100-300 years of a new religion.

After that, the religion is cast in stone and thus unchangeable.

If you do try to change, you will simply create new sect if not a brand new religion.

Sorry I don't want to distract from the main topic.

Actually, that is not off the topic, considering that BZ is just another example of forces trying to keep a religion static versus the inevitable march of time and tide.

Any religion "cast in stone" renders itself irrelevant over time. Any religion that remains flexible enough to adapt remains relevant in its follower's lives.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Actually, that is not off the topic, considering that BZ is just another example of forces trying to keep a religion static versus the inevitable march of time and tide.

Any religion "cast in stone" renders itself irrelevant over time. Any religion that remains flexible enough to adapt remains relevant in its follower's lives.

Here is BZ copy. Tell me which chapter tries keeps religion static.

http://www.islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/women/bahishti_1_2_3.pdf

Sure there is talk about zakat on goats and camels. But then every reader would know that you pay zakat on goats if you are a goat header.

so please!

 

[VCheng]

Here is BZ copy. Tell me which chapter tries keeps religion static.

http://www.islamicbulletin.org/free_downloads/women/bahishti_1_2_3.pdf

Sure there is talk about zakat on goats and camels. But then every reader would know that you pay zakat on goats if you are a goat header.

so please!

Why don't we establish first whether the treatment and rights and duties of women as described in BZ are relevant and applicable to today, before talking about Islam at large? I also posted three very relevant questions earlier based on the content of the book. How would you answer those?

 

[Secur]

I have now said all that I had to say. Iam sorry for having been very harsh on you in my previous post. Please forgive me and consider my concerns the concerns of an elder brother rather than an adversary.

Mate, the difference of opinion is no problem for me at all. Its all in good taste. I have a different idea of religion and focus more on critical free thinking and then following something or someone.

Do you have a society bro that would or respects women or you would like me to refer you to threads here on this forum where you can see for yourself how woman is treated and thought of? Thoughts of most liberal and educated people of Pakistan by the way .

You have observed the same thing that I said in my very initial post, when it comes to choosing between children and career majority will choose children, it is not some restriction imposed by anyone, it is natural, in built in them.

And what makes you think veiled women won't want to work?

And if it is choice of women themselves, that what they want to become and how they want to enjoy this freedom, then do you have a system in place (apart from religious code of conduct) that would educate them to understand that this freedom is two edged sword? And they should respect it.

You would now bring PDF threads as a representative of what happens in the real world? If one goes by that, Indians and Pakistanis should have been cutting each others throats in foreign countries. Lol Most liberal and educated of this country? Hardly. This country doesn't even properly have liberals, it has either extremists or malfunctioning mixtures. I don't know about you, I have seen women in this society get a very preferential treatment regardless of who they are.

I wasn't trying to say that it is wrong, the point is that wasting the Govt's money, resources and someone's opportunity is . I am saying they usually don't work because of very obvious reasons, radicalized interpretations of religion can be held responsible here.

Last time, I remember my Lord and your Lord granted all of his finest creations the ability to distinguish between right and wrong and to decide whats best for them. One thing Muslims and specially Pakistanis need to learn, you don't need to teach or enforce everything. Humans have awarded a brain that is capable of free critical thinking, don't limit it. Zia didn't make anyone a good Muslim or even their prayers respectful in the eyes of God by closing down shops forcibly or using stick carrying low level enforcers, fear might be the best motivation for doing something but it isn't effective at all.