So how good is Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter? Analysis from RUSI think-tank’s Justin Bronk

[ghazi768]

I think it is a stretch of an imagination to call Indra "one of the largest defence companies" in Europe.

I guess BAE, Dessault, EADS, MBDA, Finmechanica, RR, etc all must not exist in your world. Anyways, this is getting ridiculous so I will let you believe whatever you wish. As I said, if you wish to think Indra of Spain is an equal to Israeli EW systems, that's your choice. Let's move on and discuss ideas, theories, weapon systems and not "I don't like your opinion so I'm going to start attacking you".

Reading your posts I remembered another poster recently, he also had same 'flight profile' as you on this forum, torpedoed it by sowing doubts about BVR capability of JF-17 and claiming to be in know of things. PAF did a test two weeks later to put any such doubts to rest. kehin tumhari kisi aunti shanti ka bacha to nahin woh...

why would Su-30 be able to fly high and fast and not JF-17, and what issue you have with thrust of JF-17, care to elaborate?

 

[MiG-35-BD]

Reading your posts I remembered another poster recently, he also had same 'flight profile' as you on this forum, torpedoed it by sowing doubts about BVR capability of JF-17 and claiming to be in know of things. PAF did a test two weeks later to put any such doubts to rest. kehin tumhari kisi aunti shanti ka bacha to nahin woh...

why would Su-30 be able to fly high and fast and not JF-17, and what issue you have with thrust of JF-17, care to elaborate?

I have elaborated quite extensively here, only to receive ad hominem attacks and one liners.

That's my last on this thread. Good luck.

 

[ghazi768]

I have elaborated quite extensively here, only to receive ad hominem attacks and one liners.

That's my last on this thread. Good luck.

This is what I got from your post about it:

To fly high and fast with fuel, combat load, you will fly higher and faster depending on a very large number of parameters. We could try to look at a few. One for example is the engine thrust available on the JF-17. Compare that to the thrust available on a MKI or even an F-16. And you may find an issue.

To fly high and fast, drag is another important factor, as are certain aerodynamic characteristics such as wing loading, which would greatly impact your ability to maneuver effectively at altitude.

If everyone would build a competent modern air superiority platform with a single RD-33 (RD-93), the world of aircombat would be very simple and all these high powered aircraft that cost so much more, would be redundant in many ways.

How is it extensive..

 

[ziaulislam]

This is what I got from your post about it:

To fly high and fast with fuel, combat load, you will fly higher and faster depending on a very large number of parameters. We could try to look at a few. One for example is the engine thrust available on the JF-17. Compare that to the thrust available on a MKI or even an F-16. And you may find an issue.

To fly high and fast, drag is another important factor, as are certain aerodynamic characteristics such as wing loading, which would greatly impact your ability to maneuver effectively at altitude.

If everyone would build a competent modern air superiority platform with a single RD-33 (RD-93), the world of aircombat would be very simple and all these high powered aircraft that cost so much more, would be redundant in many ways.

How is it extensive..

you are wasting your time with new comer who has little knowledge(or atleast thats what he is indicating, who knows he might be aeronautical engr hiding in plain sight), and has little regard for facts and figures

facts is thunder for its current configuration(weight/payload) has ample thrust, planes that are design with more wing area like gripen C for example, have smaller engine, more weight and payload, his aurgument doesnt make sense

compare the weight of (with full payload) gripen C, mirage 2000 and jf-17 with each thrust, jf-17 has far larger thurst because it needs more due to its design

 

[MastanKhan]

Regarding the Indra - as I said, I don't know much about this system or even the EW system on the MKI. Just my layman general view is that a Spanish company making an upgrade for local legacy F-18s, compared to a high end Israeli EW system used in an F-15. I would guess the latter is better than the former but hey, whatever rocks your boat. For all we know Indra of Spain is as good if not better than any Israeli EW system, designed for the heavy weight F-15.

Hi,

A manufacturer in contention for a gadget for an upgrade to a tier 1 aircraft of its time---just does not compete untill and unless they are 99.99% sure that they are in league with other manufacturers be it the israelis---the italians or the americans.

You just simply don't pour out millions in research and production of the item in question.

 

[MiG-35-BD]

Hi,

A manufacturer in contention for a gadget for an upgrade to a tier 1 aircraft of its time---just does not compete untill and unless they are 99.99% sure that they are in league with other manufacturers be it the israelis---the italians or the americans.

You just simply don't pour out millions in research and production of the item in question.

Hi,

An F-18 of Spain (called an EF-18 but no relation to an EW, E stands for Espana) was an F-18 A/ B. This was not ever considered a tier 1 aircraft, even at inception it was an LWF. And when upgraded, they were very old technology.

EW is not something that can easily be compared. Israel or any other country would not give Spain access to their system so Spain can figure out if their one is good enough or better or not.

Spain, having no real enemy, could have gone for a good enough system that helps local industry and keeps money in the country. We wouldn't know. Or it could be an out of the world amazing EW system. Again we wouldn't know.

As I said from the beginning of the EW discussion, I don't know much about these systems. I am simply making the point that some countries are very well known for expertise in these fields. The first name that comes up is probably Israel. And an F-15 based system would be larger, more powerful and potentially more sophisticated given the Israeli pedigree.

I can be wrong. Its just a layman view. I've no clue about these systems. I'm just making a guestimate based on Israeli reputation and it being basically a bigger, more powerful system. Again, this was a small point in the discussion I was making.

I am tired of writing long, thought out messages and getting 1-2 liners with very little meaningful thought. I replied to you out of respect but I must get along now. Take care.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

An F-18 of Spain (called an EF-18 but no relation to an EW, E stands for Espana) was an F-18 A/ B. This was not ever considered a tier 1 aircraft, even at inception it was an LWF. And when upgraded, they were very old technology.

EW is not something that can easily be compared. Israel or any other country would not give Spain access to their system so Spain can figure out if their one is good enough or better or not.

Spain, having no real enemy, could have gone for a good enough system that helps local industry and keeps money in the country. We wouldn't know. Or it could be an out of the world amazing EW system. Again we wouldn't know.

As I said from the beginning of the EW discussion, I don't know much about these systems. I am simply making the point that some countries are very well known for expertise in these fields. The first name that comes up is probably Israel. And an F-15 based system would be larger, more powerful and potentially more sophisticated given the Israeli pedigree.

I can be wrong. Its just a layman view. I've no clue about these systems. I'm just making a guestimate based on Israeli reputation and it being basically a bigger, more powerful system. Again, this was a small point in the discussion I was making.

I am tired of writing long, thought out messages and getting 1-2 liners with very little meaningful thought. I replied to you out of respect but I must get along now. Take care.

Hi,

If you do not know much about EW suites---then claiming such and then commenting on it does not seem to be appropriate.

 

[My-Analogous]

I think it is a stretch of an imagination to call Indra "one of the largest defence companies" in Europe.

I guess BAE, Dessault, EADS, MBDA, Finmechanica, RR, etc all must not exist in your world. Anyways, this is getting ridiculous so I will let you believe whatever you wish. As I said, if you wish to think Indra of Spain is an equal to Israeli EW systems, that's your choice. Let's move on and discuss ideas, theories, weapon systems and not "I don't like your opinion so I'm going to start attacking you".

Sorry i didn't know that over 40000 pro company is called small company, which is present in around 140 country.

https://www.indracompany.com/en/indra

 

[Dazzler]

Hi,

An F-18 of Spain (called an EF-18 but no relation to an EW, E stands for Espana) was an F-18 A/ B. This was not ever considered a tier 1 aircraft, even at inception it was an LWF. And when upgraded, they were very old technology.

EW is not something that can easily be compared. Israel or any other country would not give Spain access to their system so Spain can figure out if their one is good enough or better or not.

Spain, having no real enemy, could have gone for a good enough system that helps local industry and keeps money in the country. We wouldn't know. Or it could be an out of the world amazing EW system. Again we wouldn't know.

As I said from the beginning of the EW discussion, I don't know much about these systems. I am simply making the point that some countries are very well known for expertise in these fields. The first name that comes up is probably Israel. And an F-15 based system would be larger, more powerful and potentially more sophisticated given the Israeli pedigree.

I can be wrong. Its just a layman view. I've no clue about these systems. I'm just making a guestimate based on Israeli reputation and it being basically a bigger, more powerful system. Again, this was a small point in the discussion I was making.

I am tired of writing long, thought out messages and getting 1-2 liners with very little meaningful thought. I replied to you out of respect but I must get along now. Take care.

Responding to Keyboard warriors like you is nothing but a waste of time. A guy calling the third largest defense contractor in EU is showing attitude.Huh
One more time, read below

https://www.indracompany.com/en/defense

 

[!eon]

I was really nice to you and gave you a chance to cool down and you came down to street level language. If the one who dished out filth got a negative rating you now get one for responding and involving his family. Now will the 2 of you behave civilly or do I ask the mods to give you some cooling time outside the forum. BEHAVE YOURSELF AND STOP SPEWING FILTH ON THE FORUM.
A

I remain cool down always.
A person comes and starts abusing, what you would do ? laugh ?

Thanks for being nice. It was like "oh bro that guy is slapping you, no prob turn face other way, it will be less painful"

I remain mostly outside of this forum and I am well behaved but no one's slave !

@Eagle yes it's unfortunate. You sent me message in inbox, I don't know how to reply there.

I reported critical thought abuses and if you had come in time and deleted his posts when he introduced abuses, I wouldn't have replied. But here I see you came 2 days after my report.

@!eon @CriticalThought

It was very unfortunate to see such type of behaviour on Forum. Let me be very straight with you without any offense that you are hereby served with 1 fraction warning initially and banned from Thread for 7 days though, reversed -tives only for this time which were not given unjustified but giving you another chance to correct yourself.

No matter what, no one is allowed to personally attack anyone on the forum nor to use unethical language neither permitted to insult any member or someone's family at all. Furthermore, Staff Members granted authority in different domains, uses their power as & when needed while having no other option hence, if anyone has any issue, can contact GHQ Section and discuss as such.

We are here to debate, discuss, share and gain knowledge from each other whereby we also moves on when the point comes as we do not agree with each other. One cannot influence his/her opinion upon others nor can force anyone to agree with him/her all the time. The beauty of a debate or discussion is where we present our knowledge, observations & analysis mixed with opinion while having the liberty to disagree too and same goes both ways.

Please, keep it friendly and peaceful environment as we expect for ourselves and agree to disagree in-case of any conflict in opinion, move on with respect for each other.

Regards,

 

[araz]

I remain cool down always.
A person comes and starts abusing, what you would do ? laugh ?

Thanks for being nice. It was like "oh bro that guy is slapping you, no prob turn face other way, it will be less painful"

I remain mostly outside of this forum and I am well behaved but no one's slave !

@Eagle yes it's unfortunate. You sent me message in inbox, I don't know how to reply there.

I reported critical thought abuses and if you had come in time and deleted his posts when he introduced abuses, I wouldn't have replied. But here I see you came 2 days after my report.

My Brother.
What happened happened. Both of you had cooling periods. Now let it go and move on!! No one wants a continuation of "But he did it first!!!" I hope you understand. Forget the past and make a new start.
A

 

[!eon]

My Brother.
What happened happened. Both of you had cooling periods. Now let it go and move on!! No one wants a continuation of "But he did it first!!!" I hope you understand. Forget the past and make a new start.
A

Nothing new happened bro.. I just visited forum and found a lot of old alerts.
Just wanted to say that head down is not an answer in front of bullying, and if submission in front of bullying is a forum rule, it shouldn't be there and you should not advocate such submissive behavior.
I was never hyper but unfortunately bullies only understand replies in that kind of ugly language.
Moved on long ago, never stopped for even a while
See you after some time again.

and btw @Eagle I don't get all the alerts there is some issue.

 

[CriticalThought]

Nothing new happened bro.. I just visited forum and found a lot of old alerts.
Just wanted to say that head down is not an answer in front of bullying, and if submission in front of bullying is a forum rule, it shouldn't be there and you should not advocate such submissive behavior.
I was never hyper but unfortunately bullies only understand replies in that kind of ugly language.
Moved on long ago, never stopped for even a while
See you after some time again.

and btw @Eagle I don't get all the alerts there is some issue.

For the record, I don't want to go to my grave having called names to a fellow Muslim. And so, purely for the sake of Allah the Almighty and for nothing else, I apologize and seek forgiveness from you, @araz @WebMaster and @The Eagle and anyone else whom I have caused suffering. I hope you will forgive me for the sake of Allah the Almighty.

 

[!eon]

For the record, I don't want to go to my grave having called names to a fellow Muslim. And so, purely for the sake of Allah the Almighty and for nothing else, I apologize and seek forgiveness from you, @araz @WebMaster and @The Eagle and anyone else whom I have caused suffering. I hope you will forgive me for the sake of Allah the Almighty.

Nice
I forgave you already, nothing is in my heart against you.
What I replied, hope you would also forgive me now.

 

[araz]

For the record, I don't want to go to my grave having called names to a fellow Muslim. And so, purely for the sake of Allah the Almighty and for nothing else, I apologize and seek forgiveness from you, @araz @WebMaster and @The Eagle and anyone else whom I have caused suffering. I hope you will forgive me for the sake of Allah the Almighty.

Jazakallaho khairan my brother. There is nothing to forgive or forget as far as we are concerned. Both @!eon and you need to forgive each other. This is the way of Islam and I am pleased you have the grasp of the matter. There is no ego in the matter for we are all brothers here. So please forgive each other and move on.
Thank you once again.
A