So how good is Pakistan’s JF-17 fighter? Analysis from RUSI think-tank’s Justin Bronk

[CHI RULES]

Even the USAF is going to be upgrading its F-16s to the Block 70 standard and keep them in service for another 20+ years. We won't be retiring or replacing them anytime soon.

The statement in scenario of PAK/PAF is perhaps true considering facts that Pak already facing problems regarding F16 spares, direct supply of spares stopped from USA. Similarly our F16s may not get further upgrades, meanwhile jf17 shall continue it's development stages. The chances are that our JF17-Block-III shll surpass capabilities of F16 block 50+, the most modern version Pak has.

 

[MastanKhan]

@MastanKhan There was an issue with the Block 1s flight time being limited due to no onboard oxygen generation system. Was this deficiency not addressed in Block II? If not, I hope it is certainly going be part of the upgrades with Block III.

Hi,

The upgrade was made for the BLK2 for the on board Oxygen for the pilot.

So that gives it around 2 1/2 hours of regular flight time + 1/2 hour in reserve for any emergency situation.

 

[araz]

Mirage 2000-5mk2 upgrade programme has been very successful. The first four upgraded Mirages delivered by HAL in July 2016 on top of two French upgraded Mirages.
8-10 being delivered by HAL a year



I doubt F-16 availibilty will be 80% since for USAF it is ~71%.
Also thanks to spareparts deal with Russia Su-30 availibilty increased to 65% by late 2016 ans is on track to increase to 75% soon.

Also IAF pilot shortage ia a total myth, out of 12015 required officers posts, IAF has 11, 971 officers which means it is at 99% of reauired strength.

If you read the link provided till dec.2017 only 7 planes had been delivered. You are trying to tell me lapsed contracts are reactivated so quickly by the Indian babu beaurocrat. Come one man. Sell this to some one else.
I would rather believe a reputable aviation journal than some unknown person.
A.

 

[MastanKhan]

The statement in scenario of PAK/PAF is perhaps true considering facts that Pak already facing problems regarding F16 spares, direct supply of spares stopped from USA. Similarly our F16s may not get further upgrades, meanwhile jf17 shall continue it's development stages. The chances are that our JF17-Block-III shll surpass capabilities of F16 block 50+, the most modern version Pak has.

Hi,

Remember those guys on this board claiming a few years ago that how clever the Paf was---they had buildup a supply of 5 years of spares for the F16's---.

Will find out how fast they disappear real soon.

 

[araz]

Mirage 2000-5mk2 upgrade programme has been very successful. The first four upgraded Mirages delivered by HAL in July 2016 on top of two French upgraded Mirages.
8-10 being delivered by HAL a year



I doubt F-16 availibilty will be 80% since for USAF it is ~71%.
Also thanks to spareparts deal with Russia Su-30 availibilty increased to 65% by late 2016 ans is on track to increase to 75% soon.

Also IAF pilot shortage ia a total myth, out of 12015 required officers posts, IAF has 11, 971 officers which means it is at 99% of the required strength.

Air
India's Sukhoi fleet faces problems despite Russian spare parts deal
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi   March 22, 2017
I have no faith left in your lies and deceit. At least have the courtesy of seeing what the press is saying about your own tall claims. This article from Defence news is widely available on the net. Not written by me. You have discredited yourself in front of the whole board by lying .
A

 

[HRK]

Pak already facing problems regarding F16 spares, direct supply of spares stopped from USA.

plz I request you not to post just on the basis of assumptions about the supplies of spare for PAF F-16 fleet

 

[Falcon26]

For those arguing JF-17 can’t face SU-30 and Rafael due to the size of JF-17; how come these claims aren’t valid when measuring the Saab Gripen against the Rafael and the Euro-fighter? Both Gripen and the JF-17 are single engine light fighter jets. Would love to hear different perspectives. For example, here’s a good discussion on Gripen vs Rafael. Knowing that the JF-17 was closely designed to emulate the Gripen, how many of these Gripen advantages viz a viz the Rafael are also valid for the JF-17

https://defenseissues.net/2016/10/01/dassault-rafale-vs-saab-gripen/

 

[ghazi768]

wails of M2Ks, spares.. jethe thi khoti uthe e aan khloti..

 

[MiG-35-BD]

For those arguing JF-17 can’t face SU-30 and Rafael due to the size of JF-17; how come these claims aren’t valid when measuring the Saab Gripen against the Rafael and the Euro-fighter? Both Gripen and the JF-17 are single engine light fighter jets. Would love to hear different perspectives. For example, here’s a good discussion on Gripen vs Rafael. Knowing that the JF-17 was closely designed to emulate the Gripen, how many of these Gripen advantages viz a viz the Rafael are also valid for the JF-17

https://defenseissues.net/2016/10/01/dassault-rafale-vs-saab-gripen/

Hi, your link itself answers your question:

"Overall, Rafale has advantage in maximum missile range due to its higher cruise speed and ceilling. If neither aircraft uses Meteor, then advantage shifts to Gripen due to longer range of AMRAAM compared to MICA (180 vs 80 km). This advantage is negated by the fact that Gripen’s primary BVR missiles all use RF seeker, which means that they can be easily jammed. Meanwhile, ASRAAM is shorter than MICA (60 vs 80 km), and this difference is increased by Rafale’s kinematic advantage. It is somewhat compensated for by ASRAAMs superior maneuverability. Consequently, both aircraft have significant combat capabilities at both beyond and within visual range, with Gripen having superior WVR missiles and Rafale having superior IR BVR missiles. Gripen does have advantage in BVR area in that it has two-way datalink while Rafale only has one-way datalink to its missiles."

Plus a whole bunch of other issues, starting with JF-17 is not equal to the Gripen being analyzed, which is more advanced, has more powerful engines, has more wing area, has Meteor that too with 2 way data link, has one of the best EW systems in the world, etc. Even then you can take a look at the above quote (and the Rafale discussed above is being seen mainly with the
Mica.

JF-17s won't have a BVR advantage like the Gripen Vs Rafale.
They have a weaker engine.
Higher wing loading
And they won't be facing Rafales with the Mica but proper BVRs, and possibly even LRAAMs.
EW of both the Gripen and the Rafale are comparable too
EW capability of the MKI vs the JF-17 is possibly a no contest in favor of MKI.

 

[MiG-35-BD]

I am just curious, what in the world is PAF getting which is 555 Metric tons?!

View attachment 456516

plz I request you not to post just on the basis of assumptions about the supplies of spare for PAF F-16 fleet

 

[Falcon26]

Hi, your link itself answers your question:

"Overall, Rafale has advantage in maximum missile range due to its higher cruise speed and ceilling. If neither aircraft uses Meteor, then advantage shifts to Gripen due to longer range of AMRAAM compared to MICA (180 vs 80 km). This advantage is negated by the fact that Gripen’s primary BVR missiles all use RF seeker, which means that they can be easily jammed. Meanwhile, ASRAAM is shorter than MICA (60 vs 80 km), and this difference is increased by Rafale’s kinematic advantage. It is somewhat compensated for by ASRAAMs superior maneuverability. Consequently, both aircraft have significant combat capabilities at both beyond and within visual range, with Gripen having superior WVR missiles and Rafale having superior IR BVR missiles. Gripen does have advantage in BVR area in that it has two-way datalink while Rafale only has one-way datalink to its missiles."

Plus a whole bunch of other issues, starting with JF-17 is not equal to the Gripen being analyzed, which is more advanced, has more powerful engines, has more wing area, has Meteor that too with 2 way data link, has one of the best EW systems in the world, etc. Even then you can take a look at the above quote (and the Rafale discussed above is being seen mainly with the
Mica.

JF-17s won't have a BVR advantage like the Gripen Vs Rafale.
They have a weaker engine.
Higher wing loading
And they won't be facing Rafales with the Mica but proper BVRs, and possibly even LRAAMs.
EW of both the Gripen and the Rafale are comparable too
EW capability of the MKI vs the JF-17 is possibly a no contest in favor of MKI.

Thanks for the detailed response. I have urged before that Block III JF-17s need to have the improved variant of the current engines but some have claimed it was unnecessary. Appreciate your thoughts on the engines being a major factor in how the JF-17 performs.

Can you touch on what EW suites are currently deployed on the JF-17 and the SU-30mki? I know the JF-17 is rumored to employ an EW suite by the Spanish company Indra. How does it compare to the EW on the SU-30mki? Finally, what BVR are on the horizon in China that can be of some application on the JF-17?

Thanks

 

[General General]

When the production version of JF-17 was first revealed, the most significant aspect wasn't the DSI or the LERX but the powerful and complex EW suite.
As for as the JF-17 vis a vis the SU-30, it has been discussed here previously with the conclusion that the sheer size of the MKI would allow the Thunder to pick it up at the maximum range of the KLJ-7V2. And the relatively small size of the JF-17 would keep it hidden till it is much closer to the MKI. In essence, both jets would detect each other at about the same time. The primary missiles in service with both air forces are also similar to each other.
Quantity of payload wouldn't matter as the defending country would have the advantage due to SAMs and ground based radars coverage.

 

[sohail.ishaque]

I would pick a light weight highly agile fighter over a heavy weight any day

light weight with short ranged missile or heavy weight with long ranged missiles ?
what matters most ?
1. Range of the missile of the jet OR
2. Category of the jet(light/heavy)

 

[MiG-35-BD]

It's my pleasure. I have always been a vocal support of the JF-17 program, a few of the senior members may know about it.

I do not know per se, how effective the EW are, except from 3rd hand information. What we know is the MKI has very effective Israeli EW systems. The Elta EL/M-8222 is the same pod used in the Israeli F-15s.

Given the reputation of Israel in EW, that is all we have to go by.

There is some confusion as to what exactly the EW system is of the JF-17, there was some info out there that suggested it may not be the Indra.

Whatever it is, it would be limited in size and weight as well compared to the MKI's. And Indra is probably not in the same class as an Israeli system.

 

[HRK]

I am just curious, what in the world is PAF getting which is 555 Metric tons?!

might be stuff related to F-16 engines