Slaughtering the Khmer Rouge 1978: True or False ?

[BoQ77]

We want to receive your opinion about Khmer Rouge slaughtering in 1978.
Some assumption, like
- How about Vietnamese, Cambodian people if Khmer Rouge still in their power?
- Is Khmer Rouge the US-China product.
- Why Khmer Rouge could keep their UN-seat
- Why Khmer Rouge leader brought to war crime court after such a long time ?
- Opinion of the world at the time ...
- New Cambodia after defeating Khmer Rouge is a peaceful or harmful to the neighbors ?
...
Thanks for your attention to this thread : related to the anniversary of 35 years defeating the Khmer Rouge of nowaday Cambodia govt.

Some brief info from Wikipedia

Crimes against humanity


Skulls of Khmer Rouge victims.


Remains of victims of the Khmer Rouge in the Kampong Trach Cave, Kiry Seila Hills, Rung Tik (Water Cave), or Rung Khmao (Dead Cave).
The Khmer Rouge government arrested, tortured, and eventually executed anyone suspected of belonging to several categories of supposed "enemies":

• Anyone with connections to the former Cambodian government or with foreign governments.
• Professionals and intellectuals – in practice this included almost everyone with an education, or even English-speaking people or people wearing glasses (which, according to the regime, meant that they were literate). Ironically, Pol Pot himself was a university-educated man (albeit a drop-out) with a taste for French literature and he was also a fluent French speaker. Many artists, including musicians, writers, and filmmakers were executed. Some like Ros Sereysothea, Pan Ron, and Sinn Sisamouth gained posthumous fame for their talents and are still popular with Khmers today.
• Ethnic Vietnamese, ethnic Chinese, ethnic Thai, and other minorities in the Eastern Highlands, Cambodian Christians (most of whom were Catholic, and the Catholic Church in general), Muslims, and the Buddhist monks. The Roman Catholic cathedral of Phnom Penh was razed. The Khmer Rouge forced Muslims to eat pork, which they regard as forbidden (ḥarām). Many of those who refused were killed. Christian clergy and Muslim imams were executed. One former Khmer Rouge Commander, Comrade Duch, converted to Evangelical Christianity in the years after the regime fell.
• "Economic saboteurs" – many former urban dwellers were deemed guilty of sabotage due to their lack of agricultural ability.

Those who were convicted of treason were taken to a top-secret prison called S-21. The prisoners were rarely given food, and as a result, many people died of starvation. Others died from the severe physical mutilation that was caused by torture.[35]

Throughout the 1970s, and especially after mid-1975, the party was also shaken by factional struggles. There were even armed attempts to topple Pol Pot. The resultant purges reached a peak in 1977 and 1978 when thousands, including some important KCP leaders, were executed.

Examples of the Khmer Rouge torture methods can be seen at the Tuol Sleng Genocide Museum. The museum occupies the former grounds of a high school turned prison camp that was operated by Khang Khek Ieu, more commonly known as "Comrade Duch." Some 17,000 people passed through this centre before they were taken to sites (also known as The Killing Fields), outside Phnom Penh such as Choeung Ek where most were executed (mainly with pickaxes to save bullets) and buried in mass graves. Of the thousands who entered the Tuol Sleng Centre (also known as S-21), only twelve are known to have survived. These survivors are thought to have been kept alive due to their skills, judged by their captors to be useful.

The buildings of Tuol Sleng have been preserved as they were left when the Khmer Rouge were driven out in 1979. Several of the rooms are now lined with thousands of black and white photographs of prisoners that were taken by the Khmer Rouge.[36]

Number of deaths
Modern research has located 20,000 mass graves from the Khmer Rouge era all over Cambodia. Various studies have estimated the death toll at between 740,000 and 3,000,000, most commonly between 1.4 million and 2.2 million, with perhaps half of those deaths being due to executions, and the rest from starvation and disease.[37]

The U.S. State Department-funded Yale Cambodian Genocide Project estimates the number of deaths at approximately 1.7 million (21% of the population of the country).[38] R. J. Rummel, an analyst of historical political killings, gives a figure of 2 million.[39] A UN investigation reported 2–3 million dead, while UNICEF estimated that 3 million had been killed.[40] Demographic analysis by Patrick Heuveline suggests that between 1.17 and 3.42 million Cambodians were killed,[41] while Marek Sliwinski estimates that 1.8 million is a conservative figure.[19] Researcher Craig Etcheson of the Documentation Center of Cambodia suggests that the death toll was between 2 and 2.5 million, with a "most likely" figure of 2.2 million. After 5 years of researching grave sites, he concluded that "these mass graves contain the remains of 1,386,734 victims of execution".[37]

Fall
Main article: Cambodian–Vietnamese War


Photo images of the Ba Chúc massacre at a Vietnamese museum. The massacre was one of the events that prompted the 1978 Vietnamese invasion of Kampuchea.
On April 18, 1978 Pol Pot, fearing a Vietnamese attack, ordered a pre-emptive invasion of Vietnam. His Cambodian forces crossed the border and looted nearby villages, mostly in the border town of Ba Chue. Of the 3,157 civilians who had lived in Ba Chúc,[42] only two survived the massacre. These Cambodian forces were repelled by the Vietnamese.

By December 1978, due to several years of border conflict and the flood of refugees fleeing Kampuchea, relations between Cambodia and Vietnam collapsed. On December 25, 1978 the Vietnamese armed forces, along with the Kampuchean United Front for National Salvation, an organization that included many dissatisfied former Khmer Rouge members,[43] then invaded Cambodia, capturing Phnom Penh on January 7, 1979. Despite a traditional Cambodian fear of Vietnamese domination, defecting Khmer Rouge activists assisted the Vietnamese, and, with Vietnam's approval, became the core of the new People's Republic of Kampuchea, quickly dismissed by the Khmer Rouge and China as a "puppet government."

At the same time, the Khmer Rouge retreated west, and it continued to control certain areas near the Thai border for the next decade. These included Phnom Malai, the mountainous areas near Pailin in the Cardamom Mountains, and Anlong Veng in the Dângrêk Mountains.[44]

These Khmer Rouge bases were not self-sufficient and were funded by diamond and timber smuggling, by military assistance from China channeled by means of the Thai military, and by food smuggled from markets across the border in Thailand.[45]

Its place in the UN
Despite its deposal, the Khmer Rouge retained its UN seat, which was occupied by Thiounn Prasith, an old compatriot of Pol Pot and Ieng Sary from their student days in Paris, and one of the 21 attendees at the 1960 KPRP Second Congress. The seat was retained under the name "Democratic Kampuchea" until 1982, and then under the name "Coalition Government of Democratic Kampuchea" (see below) until 1993. Western governments repeatedly backed the Khmer Rouge in the U.N. and voted in favour of retaining Cambodia's seat in the organization. Margaret Thatcher stated "So, you'll find that the more reasonable ones of the Khmer Rouge will have to play some part in the future government, but only a minority part. I share your utter horror that these terrible things went on in Kampuchea."[46] Sweden on the contrary changed its vote in the U.N. and withdrew its support for the Khmer Rouge after a large number of Swedish citizens wrote letters to their elected representatives demanding a policy change towards Pol Pot's regime.[47]

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Cambodia, Vietnam and China are now covering up on what has actually happened and how Khmer Rouge took power. All three governments and especially the status quo of Cambodia today, including the Royal family has a lot of connections to the Khmer Rouge. USA has a black hand in the tragedy.

They are a bunch of criminals. Vietnamese government played down the fact that Khmer Rouge did received a lot of support from Vietnam, until they parted ways.

One of the biggest scandal is Khmer Rouge was supported initially by king Norodom Sihanouk. Many Khmer Rouge fighters thought they were fighting for the king. Pol Pot is not a nobody out from nowhere. He is an elite whose sister was one of the concubine of one of the king.

It sounds quite weird to claim that Norodom Sihanouk supported Khmer Rouge. And ironically, the country that country that destablized Cambodia most is USA. At that time, Norodom Sihanouk was neutral and slightly lean towards China. USA fumed. She supported General Lon Nol to coup against the king. Immediately all hell broke loose, the country was destablized.

The king allied with Khmer Rouge to take power from Lon Nol. That was an even bigger mistake.

This is a piece of shitt history that will make everyone look bad.

 

[Viet]

the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia was a necessary move to stop the madness of the Khmer Rouge, but Vietnam failed to win support from the international community.

The consequence was dramatic: Vietnam suffered under international sanction, the economy collapsed, millions of refugees fled to Western countries, Although the Khmer Rouge slaughtered 2 millions, all outsiders including Chinese and Americians closed their eyes and backed their killing job. The sadest part is even the ASEAN countries imposed santions on Vietnam and backed the killers.

There is no ethics, no humanity.

Only Russia/Soviet Union as ally was the country that backed and supported Vietnam in the darkest hours. Russia is the true friend of Vietnam. We are thankful.

 

[BoQ77]

at first, any human-being think about an invasion of Vietnam to sovereignity of Cambodia,
but after that someone rethink and has the truth ....

Sweden : Sweden govt. changed their vote for Khmer Rouge seat in UN ... after receiving several letter of protesters right in sweden ... ( they're so smart to able to smell the blood for far distance )

Even the friendly partnership Cuba, ever protested Vietnam.

Mr. Hunsen said " it takes some decades for the world to understand the rightful action of Vietnam for the life of Cambodian people.

War Veteran: Eleven Secrets From the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War

Compensation for a bereaved family is the price of a pig
By Xiao En Epoch Times Staff Created: April 9, 2012 Last Updated: April 11, 2012
Related articles: China » Society

As the Qingming Festival, also known as tomb-sweeping day, drew near, a veteran who fought in the 1979 Sino-Vietnamese War disclosed on bbs.tianya.cn eleven unpublished facts and opinions about what he experienced during the war.



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He claims to be a newspaper editor who became a soldier when he was 16. He was wounded and disabled by the time he was 19. He said that he has been lobbying and appealing for legal rights for disabled soldiers over the past several years.

The veteran said that he wanted to talk about his experiences during the war because he didn’t find that current articles about the war were authentic enough and he wanted to set the record straight. He also admitted that he was not an expert on the war and wanted merely to share his experiences and feelings. Following is a summary of what he wrote.

The Narrative of the Grieved Veteran
1. The reason the war started has never been explained in an open, authoritative, or convincing way. The then Director of the General Staff and Operations Department, Zhang Sheng, states in his books “Coming out of the War” and “The Last Secret Agent in China” that not even the then-Minister of Defense knew why the authorities felt the need to launch the war.

2. Although China had absolute advantage in the number of troops and firepower, the goal of eliminating the two most powerful Vietnamese divisions 316A and 316B was not reached.

3. Advanced equipment was for decoration only. Back then, China had modern airplanes, tanks, and missiles but the commander was not familiar with combined operations and hence the equipment wasn’t used as effectively as it could have been. For example, when a blockade could be accomplished using an airplane, an infantry regiment was sent instead.

4. Terrible logistical support. The veteran said he was injured on February 19, 1979, but didn’t receive medical attention until February 27. He had only a sulfonamide antibiotic pill so the wound festered and eventually one of his toes had to be removed. Many soldiers went to war without basic first aid training. They didn’t know how to stop bleeding and hence some soldiers bled to death from not-so-severe wounds after being hit by landmines.

5. No strategy on how to mount an attack. When the war started, our troops walked into the battlefields like it was a military parade. I remember looking out and seeing our troops visible all over the mountains and plains. I was very angry and told the chief of staff, “Even a boy scout leader from a village could do a better job of commanding.” Our enemy could easily launch mass attacks at us, and cause huge casualties.

6. No control over light artillery and limited use of heavy artillery. There was so much control on the heavy artillery, such as 152 mm and 130 mm guns, that approval by the General Staff Department had to be obtained before use. Nonetheless, the number of soldiers ordered to charge the enemy lines was not limited.

7. Non-stop incidents of self-mutilation. To avoid going to war, some of the soldiers in Vietnam shot their own legs.

8. Compensation for wounded soldiers harkened back to Civil War time. The policies were completely outmoded. After I was injured, they only gave me 15 yuan (less than US $1.80), which is the standard of Huaihai Battle (1948-1949). It’s 1/100,000 of the U.S. and U.K. standard during that same period. I don’t think the difference in GDP between developed countries and China was that large back then.

9. Compensation for the death of a soldier equaled the price of a pig. For any soldier who died during the war, 300 yuan (US $37.50, using the 1980 exchange rate) was paid to the bereaved family.

10. The soldiers discharged because of injury live a miserable life. The first 10 years after I left the military, I only received 30 yuan (US $3.75, 1980 exchange rate), every year as compensation. In 2010, 31 years after I was injured, I received consolation gifts from the government worth US$47. That night, I was looking at the gifts and drinking by myself. While drinking, I started to cry. It’s been more than 30 years! Many of us veterans still don’t own a house or have a wife.

11. Books that document facts about the war are not allowed to be published. In 2010 I wrote “The Diary of A Wounded Soldier in the Vietnam War” based on my experiences as a soldier. The book was posted online and became a national hit, but I was told that it couldn’t be published. Books about the Vietnam War could not be so direct or blunt. The war could only be referred to as “the regional military conflict in the South.” A war in which several hundreds of thousands of soldiers shed blood or died could not be described truthfully. Then who will fight for you in the future?

Questions and Responses from Netizens
The 11 issues revealed by the Vietnamese War veteran apparently resonated with netizens. Commenting about the cause of the war, one person wrote, “Internationally, the so called ‘war of self-defense,’ which caused tens of thousands of casualties, occurred to save the CCP’s little brother, the Khmer Rouge of Cambodia; domestically, it occurred so Deng Xiaoping could grab military power and consolidate his dictatorship.”

Another netizen said, “Is this country worth your life? You put your life out there for them but they don’t acknowledge you. Your life is only worth the price of a pig. And you can only complain online. If you are not careful, you will be ‘harmonized’ or the police from faraway provinces have the right to track you down and arrest you.” (The word “harmonized” in this context is a sarcastic reference to censorship.)

One response in the forum reflected on the apparent consistent failure in the Communist Party’s foreign relations initiatives: “Why is it that China is giving financial aid to many countries, but still lacks supporters? Chinese people wonder why we aren’t befriended by the countries we help, especially when our own country is not so strong, our own people are not so rich, and we suffer poverty so we can help them? In order to give the best to our friends, Chinese people have to live a poorer life. However, this resulted in our friends turning into enemies. For example, we supported Vietnam without asking to be paid back, but ended up at war with them; we have supplied North Korea with oil and food, but found that it’s like ‘throwing money into a bottomless pit.’ When we helped Mongolia with construction, they threw our Chinese workers into jail; we have helped African countries to build factories, and they blame China for giving them outdated equipment. These countries and their people don’t have any positive feelings toward China. The sacrifices and contributions that China has made somehow don’t result in friendship. Could it be that Chinese people are the biggest fools in the world?”

Related Articles

• Chinese Regime Prohibits Sino-Vietnam War Veteran Memorial
• Why Vietnam Must Remember February 17

Read the original Chinese article.

 

[kankan326]

Khmer Rouge rule in Cambodia is quite like Kims rule in N.Korea. China supported and is supporting both of them. Should China be responsible for the terrible things they did? No. China only played a support role, not a dominating role. Should other country have the right to invade Cambodia or N.Korea just because they are bad? No. Unless UN gives the permission.

 

[Reashot Xigwin]

True, now shut the hell up! Million died for **** sake & you're questioning whether its true or false?

 

[BoQ77]

True, now shut the hell up! Million died for **** sake & you're questioning whether its true or false?

kankan in above posting means False ... am I right ?

 

[Mr Second]

1. Since they liked the Utopia Communism(One theory what makes you, youeself feel like a millionaire even you only have 1 VND) very much, the situation in Cambodia would be even worse than N Korea if Khmer Rouge still got power. At least, family Kim just wants their people to serve them, no desire to kill them if not resist. About Vietnamese people...There were about 20 thousand Vietnamese in Cambodia at that time and all of them were killed by Khmer Rouge. If they still got power now? Are you kidding they would get power now....
2. The Khmer Rouge was a Maoist party since Pol Pot and Mao seemd to have quite a lot similartities and when Pol visited China, the two people did always Exchange their experiences, so the Khmer Rouge should have no relation with China. Are you kidding? About USA's support, US supported Khmer Rouge in UN just for the sake of their interst, because China-US-Thailand-Khmer Rouge VS Vietnam-USSR. Got it? No relation with how nice human rights Khmer Rouge had. Actually, US always does such things.
3. Because 2 of the Big 5 in UN supported Khmer Rouge to fight against the Vietnam and USSR.
4. Cannot understand
5. The Cold War made the socialism find out a right way to develop herself. Karl Marx wasnt wrong because he just told us how does our society develop from ancient time to the future(just like the dynasties' table), however, communism is only on the theory of Karl Marx, because we cannot ignore the initiative of human being, for instance, can everybody turn a blind eye even when billions of dollar dropping from sky? No! Even Norway nowadays still has thieves and beggars. After the Cold War to the coming future, people should have learnt a lot and much more value our peace.

 

[Fsjal]

Cambodia will forever remain a sh*thole in Southeast Asia. Both the Khmer Rouge and the Vietnamese puppet state of Kampuchea are horrible. I hope the filthy Khmer Rouge and the Pro-Vietnamese Kampuchean government burn in hell.

 

[BoQ77]

Cambodia will forever remain a sh*thole in Southeast Asia. Both the Khmer Rouge and the Vietnamese puppet state of Kampuchea are horrible. I hope the filthy Khmer Rouge and the Pro-Vietnamese Kampuchean government burn in hell.

You means there're no difference between Khmer Rouge and pro-Vietnamese Kampuchea of Hunsen ?

 

[S10]

Khmer Rouge deserved to be toppled. Even Deng Xiaoping wanted nothing to do with it after Chinese advisors reported the situation back to China. However, it was up to the Cambodians to topple them, not an external power.

 

[BoQ77]

Current Kampuchea govt. by Kampuchea people not by any external power.
I doubt about Khmer Rouge at that time.
They were fed by US, China through Thai army until their end.

It's hard to answer how Khmer Rouge ( consider themselve as Communism ) was backed great in the UN by Western.
while few year before, US still fight for avoiding domino effect in Vietnam War.

I guess the reason is, when China find a way to link with US ( could be betrayed their allies ) to handle soon-reunited Vietnam backed by USSR few years before the end of Vietnam War.

So China has US words to surround Vietnam by all cost, to build Khmer Rouge as challengers ( but unlucky they're too rude ) and too easy for Vietnam to slaughter them ( meaningless if slaughtering Khmer Rouge and not create another better govt. )

I myself consider that's the second big victory of Vietnam to handle well the Kampuchea situation in very short time.
And stop the "teach a lesson" series of attack in the Northern Vietnam by China.

And lucky for Kampuchea people, Vietnamese soldiers beside the interception of Khmer Rouge attacks into Vietnamese people inside Vietnam territory, they kicked the Khmer Rouge regime out of Kampuchea land too.

Not mention to what they call violate Kampuchea territory, Vietnam army did the most effective job, in comparing to what chaos the US made in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya ... after they destroyed the old regime ...AND not save the people.

Khmer Rouge deserved to be toppled. Even Deng Xiaoping wanted nothing to do with it after Chinese advisors reported the situation back to China. However, it was up to the Cambodians to topple them, not an external power.

Did you mean, let the Khmer Rouge continue to kill their Kampuchea people until the last one?
Do you know beside massacre their own people in their land, during few year, Khmer Rouge did cross the border and massacre Vietnames people too.
That happen before Vietnam made what China called a self-defense counter attack to protect ourselve and when crossing the border, they realized Khmer Rouge did massacre their own people the same way as to Vietnamese victims.
So horrible ... to know they have been killing their own people during few years sum up to millions ...
Only one massacre of Khmer Rouge made to Vietnamese people in Vietnam 1978 has over 3000 victims.
Before Vietnam invasion there're some waves of Kampuchea refugees to cross the border into Vietnam for saving their own life ...

 

[Lux de Veritas]

Many PRC Chinese here do not want to admit mistake. We did wrong, we must apologize. 死不认错。

This Khmer Rouge thing did a lot of harm to oversea Chinese. It was one of the main reason that the entire SE Asian Chinese saw China as a mad dog. As a result, many SE Asian Chinese turned to support USA.

Not only Khmer Rouge, Vietnam also started an anti Chinese pogrom. (I really doubt how Australesian or "non Chinese" is Vietnamese given that even in Thailand, a lot of Thai are fake Thai but Chinese mestizo). Despite of this, no other SE Asian Chinese hate Vietnamese for these deeds against Chinese. Only mainland Chinese spill poison against Vietnamese. Vietnamese come Singapore, we welcome. Vietnam should thank oversea Chinese for being a tolerant people.

Everyone should thank Vietnam for getting rid of Khmer Rouge. In Cambodia, Chinese suffer disproportionately as we are better educated and richer than native.

During the years of Mao, China did behave like a mad dog and harm a lot of SE Asian Chinese. I should stop here, or may be I should wash more of our dirty linens in public. I do not intend to expose more because there are mad dog Indians around which I think are the world most shitt people.

 

[BoQ77]

Thanks for your sharing.

 

[Viva_Viet]

Many PRC Chinese here do not want to admit mistake. We did wrong, we must apologize. 死不认错。

This Khmer Rouge thing did a lot of harm to oversea Chinese. It was one of the main reason that the entire SE Asian Chinese saw China as a mad dog. As a result, many SE Asian Chinese turned to support USA.

Not only Khmer Rouge, Vietnam also started an anti Chinese pogrom. (I really doubt how Australesian or "non Chinese" is Vietnamese given that even in Thailand, a lot of Thai are fake Thai but Chinese mestizo). Despite of this, no other SE Asian Chinese hate Vietnamese for these deeds against Chinese. Only mainland Chinese spill poison against Vietnamese. Vietnamese come Singapore, we welcome. Vietnam should thank oversea Chinese for being a tolerant people.

Everyone should thank Vietnam for getting rid of Khmer Rouge. In Cambodia, Chinese suffer disproportionately as we are better educated and richer than native.

During the years of Mao, China did behave like a mad dog and harm a lot of SE Asian Chinese. I should stop here, or may be I should wash more of our dirty linens in public.

Dont know why China govt. still showing its aggression toward VN even most of faults between China-VN come from them . They r angry with what Japanese did to them, but when they did the same bad things (supportted Khmer rouge, killed VN kids- pregnant women in 1979 animal attack ), they also refuse all crimes.

in 1979 every one mistook that we invaded Cambodia and wanna annex its land,that was so Wrong. So we hope that this time,if we come and punish the dumb@$$ Sam Rainsy who anti-VN (and anti-whoever against China ), every one will not sanction VN again. And if those suckers in Thailand harbour that Sam Rainsy like harbouring Pol Pot, let us roll the tank to Bangkok to burn their @$$ for good, too.

Just bcz there some low-life idiot wanna lick China's boots for money, thats why ASEAN cant be a solidarity and peaceful region and China can take advantage of it to turn ASEAN into chaos. When no more China's boot licker in the region ,then China will have to shut its mouth up when talking abt ASEAN region.

I do not intend to expose more because there are mad dog Indians around which I think are the world most shitt people.

Indian is our friend and they do no harm to ur country. dont show ur bias here, mate