Sino-Japanese tensions, fault lies with China, but Japan will pay the bill

[Genesis]

Sino Japanese tensions has been described as Japan's unwillingness to apologize and China unwilling to forgive, Japan's revisionist stance, and China's upholding of victory nation, Japan's left wing extremist and Chinese military adventurism.

But it is actually a symptom of something else.

The German and Japanese defeat left both nation in ruins, both would go on to apologize and become the symbol of peace and cooperation, but then something weird happened. China plunged into the cultural revolution after the purge of Deng and Liu who had made progress, capitalist progress after the disaster of the great leap forward.

By the end of the revolution, China was in utter ruins. More destroyed than the Civil war and the Sino Japanese war.

By this time Japan was entering its peak years, by 1980s it was apparent Japan was once again a great power in everything but name and China was still the basket case it had always been since the first Opium war. Slowly but surely the prejudice and racist views were returning.

On the other side US's total victory after WW2 made it into the world's super power and by 1991 the only super power. It was unimaginable US would be challenged again by Germany, Europe or even the World. Germans will apologize and remain peaceful for they see that challenging US would be 100 times more foolish than the war in Russia. That being an US ally was in itself a prestigious position and being defeated by it pose no humiliation.

On some level Japan felt being defeated by China was humiliating or even Japan had in fact not lost to China at all, and if not for the US China would be Japanese territory, and now that the US is a Japanese ally, China would pose no threat.

But as fate would have it history changed once again, China started to modernize in a speed unparalleled and probably won't be matched in human history. By 2010 China surpassed Japan who has been stagnating for decades, and became the second in GDP. By this point the views of China from WW2 has more or less returned in full force and even with this Japan doesn't see China as anything more than what it had always been in decades past.

By 2012, it is apparent China would soon become the undisputed power in Asia with the distance not only impossible to close, but getting wider by the second, both economically, politically, and militarily.


Japan then made a move to change the course of the relationship, she bought the islands.

This became the final straw, as Japan has completely refused to recognize China as a victory nation and the dominate power in Asia. With this one move, the powder keg has been lit and the explosion has brought back old Japanese condescension and Chinese resentment in full gear and so begins the third Sino Japanese confrontation.

Had China been like the US continued to advance post WW2, this tension would never have even been thought of, it would be ridicules to suggest it. But as fate would have it, it didn't work out that way, it was China's inability to act like a victory nation that created the Japanese feelings, but...

Today, the Japanese are going to pay for it....

 

[xunzi]

It's a good short-write up. It's clear to us we will be the biggest, baddest power in this 21st century in Asia. Nothing can stop us.

 

[Rang De]

It's a good short-write up. It's clear to us we will be the biggest, baddest power in this 21st century in Asia. Nothing can stop us.

...except a couple of nukes.

China should focus on its own landmass, and shed dreams of ruling Asia or taking revenge from Japan. China will turn into the same imperialist hegemon that world hates today. No one would support such hegemon except a few near-failed states that don't have any choice.

Create goodwill instead of seeding hatred, it will get you far.

as Japan has completely refused to recognize China as a victory nation

How do you recognize a country to be "victory nation"?

Chinese people should stop seeking approval of Japanese and learn to believe in themselves.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

By the end of the revolution, China was in utter ruins. More destroyed than the Civil war and the Sino Japanese war.

Another anti-Mao mouthpiece propaganda, and show me the proof where the CR was devastating than Japanese invasion and the Civil War?

This piece of garbage was clearly written by a westerner, since a Chinese won't call it as something like "Sino-Japanese War".

 

[Genesis]

How do you recognize a country to be "victory nation"?

Chinese people should stop seeking approval of Japanese and learn to believe in themselves.

Japan's visits of their soldiers that killed our men and women, but more importantly class A war criminals. Shinzo Abe's attitude and refusal to accept the treaty in 1945 that ended the war and subsequent treaties that returned all Chinese territories including ones during the first Sino Japanese war.

Tell me, if Germany decided it wants alsace lorraine back and started to visit Nazi SS graves, while also making such comments as no holocaust, the Jews can't prove anything, the Russians were worse offenders than Nazis.

Is that cool with the US? France? Russia? You want to know what Victory nation means? Right there and more.



This is an uninformed comment, do you know why Chinese air space is so congested? Chinese PLAN can't even exercise on the coast without going into the Japanese identification zone, it's right up to our border. Check it out. That's been there for a long time.

We had to use civilian air space and reroute air traffic.


Taiwan strait crisis 1996, US carrier battle groups threaten war, this is a domestic dispute, it's like coming in between two brothers. Whatever we have, we will solve it ourselves. The US certainly understood it back in their civil war, but has surprisingly short memory, but then again recent Kerry comment, not surprised.


We are not seeking Japanese approval, what they think means crap to us, but they are seriously hurting our national interests, I don't know which country you are from, but you should tell us, so we can do the same to you and see how you like it.


@ChineseTiger1986

It's written by me, my stance on China on this forum isn't in doubt is it? The cultural revolution it is what it is. It served it's purpose by making China into a totally committed people in economic prosperity and atheism, as with some other benefits.

But wide spread famine, personal attacks, indiscriminate killings and torture, as well as mass gang violence and the country going into chaos.


I'm actually not a Mao hater, I see him for what it is, getting rid of western powers is the key contribution. But he has faults, try to see him for what he is, a Hero to China, but a failed statesman.

I have no problem with him being the symbol of Chinese nation.

 

[ChineseTiger1986]

Stop using the western perspective to judge China's history.

I only see many westerners often use comment like this: "Yeah, Japs killed 30 million Chinese, but Mao and his CPC cronies has killed more than 100 million, so you guys should blame Mao and CPC first."

Go fck themselves, those racists always love pull the shit out of their filthy mouth and raped the history with their verbal diarrhea.

 

[Genesis]

Stop using the western perspective to judge China's history.

I only see many westerners often use comment like this: "Yeah, Japs killed 30 million Chinese, but Mao and his CPC cronies has killed more than 100 million, so you guys should blame Mao and CPC first."

Go fck themselves, those racists always love pull the shit out of their filthy mouth and raped the history with their verbal diarrhea.

That argument makes no sense, whatever China did was internal, was between us, it's like if my dad smacked me on the head because I did something stupid, I'm not going to say or do anything.

But if somebody else did that, me and my dad will go medieval on that person's ***.

It doesn't matter what Mao or anyone else did(bit insane to blame the government the way they do, it's like India, it's failed policy, not genocide), it's between brothers.

Japan is not Chinese, what they do is completely on a different level, England persecuted Catholics when they are turning protestant, but when Spain sailed for Britain, it's all swords point outward, it's not like Western nation or even Japan don't understand it.

 

[northeast]

I agree with you.We should defeat Japan again by ourselves this time to earn respect.Well，not necessarily be japan，defeating any major western powers would do the same.

 

[Genesis]

I agree with you.We should defeat Japan again by ourselves this time to earn respect.Well，not necessarily be japan，defeating any major western powers would do the same.

Let's battle greece, maybe the Italians for the Indians. They are certainly western, at least Italians are.

But seriously I don't think war is near, there will be signs when it is. China will update all weapons of current soldiers, and mass production of aircrafts, and submarines. Mass production of surface ships have started.

China has the strategy, continue to develop, but limited production for test, while buy foreign for actual use. This to catch up to America, if we mass produce first product that we designed then immediately it will not be as good or America will come out with something better.

So wait for mass production of J-20, J-31, mass equipping of modern single soldier combat systems, mass production of nuclear attack subs, as well as air craft carriers and such.

In the mean time, let's eat all the sushi we can before Japan sinks to the bottom of the ocean, but hopefully we can rescue a few chiefs, their fish sashimi is so good, can't live without it.

 

[GR!FF!N]

@Genesis

you can eat all the sushi you want,cause,nothing is going to happen.China will issue warning after warning while continuing their daily drama.its still unthinkable about a China-Japan war while so much is at stake.plus,if you think China will go to an war for that island,you're mistaking.China knows where their priority lies,its economics.an attack on Japan not only escalate the execution of Cold war 2.0,but eventually isolate China at global arena.

China should concentrate on "Political Unification of Taiwan" than dumb "9 dotted line" and "Diaoyu" issues.

 

[xunzi]

...except a couple of nukes.

China should focus on its own landmass, and shed dreams of ruling Asia or taking revenge from Japan. China will turn into the same imperialist hegemon that world hates today. No one would support such hegemon except a few near-failed states that don't have any choice.

Create goodwill instead of seeding hatred, it will get you far.

.

...except we can return a few of the nukes back.

Our country has no interest in other country landmass. We only want what belong to us. The claims we made are not new. It dated back to over 70 years. Like what we said, do not try to test our resolve when it comes to territorial integrity.

 

[Genesis]

@Genesis

you can eat all the sushi you want,cause,nothing is going to happen.China will issue warning after warning while continuing their daily drama.its still unthinkable about a China-Japan war while so much is at stake.plus,if you think China will go to an war for that island,you're mistaking.China knows where their priority lies,its economics.an attack on Japan not only escalate the execution of Cold war 2.0,but eventually isolate China at global arena.

China should concentrate on "Political Unification of Taiwan" than dumb "9 dotted line" and "Diaoyu" issues.

First we can multi task, second, 9 dash line and Diaoyu is not an Asian issue, it's an American issue. They are essentially the same deal. As soon as the US retreats or loses, Asia will fall to us like dominos.

China is growing at 7.5% because we are choosing what kind of businesses are allowed and what needs to be closed, to be updated. This is partly to pollution, but also to stabilize Chinese economy and change to domestic spending. Isolation will not work with China, especially since ASEAN actually more or less like us, other than the vocal two. Africa is a friend, South America is a friend. Europe has no stake in Asia and wants none, they won't oppose us.

That leaves only America, well, you know how the continental blockade Napoleon used turned out?


China will eventually go to war, against who hard to say, but I would not expect it to be before 2020 at the earliest, a more possible time is 2025 to 2030, and anytime after that.

While some think China not attacking is weakness, but it's strength, stupid nations attack at the wrong time. We'll play our game and you play yours, we dictate the pace. If Japan wants victory, no better time than now, by 2020, they will be completely outmatched, by 2030, we will be able to go toe to toe with the US at Guam, and anywhere else not in the immediate waters of US.

 

[GR!FF!N]

First we can multi task, second, 9 dash line and Diaoyu is not an Asian issue, it's an American issue. They are essentially the same deal. As soon as the US retreats or loses, Asia will fall to us like dominos.

LOL..what???to you??what is China??and what age it is??21st AD or 10th BC???

That leaves only America, well, you know how the continental blockade Napoleon used turned out?

totally different issue.you're now in the age of Globalization and China's economy is based on manufacturing.think about what massive blow that'll be for China if US companies backed off from manufacturing sector entirely.fairy tale is only for kids,not for defence forum.

While some think China not attacking is weakness, but it's strength, stupid nations attack at the wrong time. We'll play our game and you play yours, we dictate the pace. If Japan wants victory, no better time than now, by 2020, they will be completely outmatched, by 2030, we will be able to go toe to toe with the US at Guam, and anywhere else not in the immediate waters of US.

thats what Japanese thought during WW II.frankly speaking,Japan had more chance to defeat USA than China will ever be.plus,you forgot,you're alone.China can not fight off group of countries alone.and any offensive against a group of countries by China is simply "Fairy Tale".Even USA probably doesn't have enough resource to fight a decisive war against say Vietnam and Japan alone.plus,why you guys are so Crazy about war???don't you guys like to live in peace??is that really important to declare an war over neighbours to show that you guys are powerful??jeez...

don't want to hurt you man,but China always had large standing army,navy and airforce.but what they always lacked was military ingenuinety or what we call "masterstrokes".you guys probably couldn't win a single war with "Tactics".so,winning several offensive with powerful neighbours at a time is really you guys shouldn't discuss.you may dream about pounding Japan and Vietnam with thousands of missiles and secure victory within a week,but thats never going to happen.even if China spar with Japan,it'll more like some naval skirmishes than a full blown war.

 

[BoQ77]

Leave Japan some time for gaining their gold-era power and enjoy the war after that ... Chinese pal !!!
We'll stay, not attack anyone, just collect our sea and islands only !!!

 

[Genesis]

LOL..what???to you??what is China??and what age it is??21st AD or 10th BC???

I don't mean conquered them, treaties, that would give us the right to police the area, but not the exclusive right to exploit the area. But that's in the future, I'm sure you have different views on how China will handle things. But just know, once Pakistan wanted to talk, we solved our dispute rather quickly, and are the best of friends now.

totally different issue.you're now in the age of Globalization and China's economy is based on manufacturing.think about what massive blow that'll be for China if US companies backed off from manufacturing sector entirely.fairy tale is only for kids,not for defence forum.

This is why I don't like to argue with people who don't think too much, everyone says China is a export country and it's true, but America is an import country, what do you think will happen if we don't export, our people will lose jobs, but America will face hyper inflation. Just like the diesel sub, they can make that submarine, but they don't have a factory anymore, so they really can't in reality. All theirs are nuke subs.

We will both die.

America is actually retreating to Guam, they are beginning to see that they want the choice of being a part of the war or not. China isn't Iraq, they want at least the chance to weight the options. So retreating to Guam is perfect, if something happens and they don't think they want to be part of it, they can choose to stay out, but if they choose to be in it, being in Guam doesn't really slow them that much.

thats what Japanese thought during WW II.frankly speaking,Japan had more chance to defeat USA than China will ever be.plus,you forgot,you're alone.China can not fight off group of countries alone.and any offensive against a group of countries by China is simply "Fairy Tale".Even USA probably doesn't have enough resource to fight a decisive war against say Vietnam and Japan alone.plus,why you guys are so Crazy about war???don't you guys like to live in peace??is that really important to declare an war over neighbours to show that you guys are powerful??jeez...

don't want to hurt you man,but China always had large standing army,navy and airforce.but what they always lacked was military ingenuinety or what we call "masterstrokes".you guys probably couldn't win a single war with "Tactics".so,winning several offensive with powerful neighbours at a time is really you guys shouldn't discuss.you may dream about pounding Japan and Vietnam with thousands of missiles and secure victory within a week,but thats never going to happen.even if China spar with Japan,it'll more like some naval skirmishes than a full blown war.

[/quote]

Japan had a economy 1/10th of US at WW2, we are almost equal, but the distance will widen as soon as we past them by no later than 2026, and if you don't think China can do it, then I can't convince you other wise, but more people have been wrong on China's fall than rise. The fall people's percentage of accuracy is still 0%.



You are not bring facts. This is what I posted in the other thread, tell me this doesn't sound impressive to you. By 2030, challenging the US will be a reality, no longer a dream. Why was our military so weak these past 20 years?

Deng's idea, create, evaluate it, if it can be good enough to be one of the best or the best from creation to 15 years later, mass produce it, otherwise make a few, test it in the army, move on.

Hence no mass production of most of our platforms.

But Type 56, Type 54A, and Diesel subs are clearly breaking that trend, so are all the ships after it. Our navy after these decades have finally matured.

There are serious questions cause you don't follow Chinese development.

Type 56, and upgrades, to go with type 022 missile boats for patrol

Type 54a, 57 for anti sub and support, type 57 is unmatched in its class and will begin construction this year, the number is 20, while 54A already has 24, with the last few soon to be inducted.

Type 51 to 52D destroyers, by decades end we will have more than 20 Aegis destroyers of 6000-8000 tons variety.

Type 55 12,000 tons, can be compared to anything but Zumwalt, but US only will have three of that. While we will have 12-15

LHDs, 071, 2-3 carriers, biggest mine sweeping fleet, 2nd largest supply fleet, second largest submarine fleet, with more advanced nuclear attack and balistic subs. And tons more

How is this not a dominating force, give me another one other than the states who can even come close. Maybe Russia, don't think so, but even if that's true, that's our ally not America's.

The land of art of war, the land that held the Japanese since 1937 to 1945, true America relief in troops came in 1944. The flying tigers was not a key factor. To say China has no tactics is just stupid, and very biased of you. The same can be said of Indians then, when was the last time you won against a power?

I don't even know how to comment on the tactics thing, it's so biased, that it's like arguing with a redneck. Nothing really to say, doesn't matter what you do, you will lose, be better, be richer, nothing will help cause you suck. There's really no comeback to that.