Since Earliest Historical Times Hinduism Was Never Popular in Pakistan

[Indischer]

Why should I "refute" it?? I think you do not even understand what monotheism means. Monotheism is the firm belief (not skepticism) that there is only one god. The RigVeda mentions many Gods, is skeptical about their very existence in some verses and also suggests that the same God might have been worshipped in his many forms and incarnations. What's so monotheistic about this reasoning??

And you've mentioned RigVeda 10.48.1. Do you know it's previous verse? It's RgVeda 10.47.8

RigVeda 10.47.8: Grant us the boon for which I pray, O Indra, a spacious home unmatched among the people. To this may Heaven and Earth accord approval: vouchsafe us mighty and resplendent riches.

RigVeda 10.48.1
ahám bhuvaM vásunaH pUrvyás pátir aháM dhánAni sáM jayAmi sháshvataH
mÁM havante pitáraM ná jantávo aháM dAshúSe ví bhajAmi bhójanam

It's actually Indra replying back to his worshippers. (Aham = I). Nowhere is Ishwara or any other God mentioned in the verses you've given. Their English translations are wrong.

The verses where you cite Eshwara are essentially dialogues between Indra and priests who chant him and seek his blessings.

 

[kingkobra]

Please re-read the first post. Details are mentioned with time frame which clearly indicate that the land of Pakistan was Hindu only in limited context and in some parts. Majority population did not follow the Indian Hindu religion whereas only some rulers were Brahmins/Hindus, and this is a fact. Majority followed monotheistic formats, Buddhism and later Islam.

All the monotheistic formats and buddhism you are referring to have evolved after the vedic religion with many influences from vedas ..Buddhism & Jainism would not have been possible without presence of vedic religion in this part of world.

One thing that everyone should remember that Buddhism was not the first dharmic religion and its followers were indeed vedic prior to advent of buddhism.

 

[WAR-rior]

Please re-read the first post. Details are mentioned with time frame which clearly indicate that the land of Pakistan was Hindu only in limited context and in some parts. Majority population did not follow the Indian Hindu religion whereas only some rulers were Brahmins/Hindus, and this is a fact. Majority followed monotheistic formats, Buddhism and later Islam.

Exactly what i say. But it wud be unreasonable to completely quarantine your region with subcontinent. For your better understanding, Your region was the junction of two civilizations Indian and Persian and hence always been a mixed cultured region unlike mainland India. But mixed culture doesnt mean you guyz are exclusive.

 

[kingkobra]

ahám bhuvaM vásunaH pUrvyás pátir aháM dhánAni sáM jayAmi sháshvataH
mÁM havante pitáraM ná jantávo aháM dAshúSe ví bhajAmi bhójanam

Why should I "refute" it?? I think you do not even understand what monotheism means. Monotheism is the firm belief (not skepticism) that there is only one god. The RigVeda mentions many Gods, is skeptical about their very existence in some verses and also suggests that the same God might have been worshipped in his many forms and incarnations. What's so monotheistic about this reasoning??

And you've mentioned RigVeda 10.48.1. Do you know it's previous verse? It's RgVeda 10.47.8

RigVeda 10.47.8: Grant us the boon for which I pray, O Indra, a spacious home unmatched among the people. To this may Heaven and Earth accord approval: vouchsafe us mighty and resplendent riches.

RigVeda 10.48.1
ahám bhuvaM vásunaH pUrvyás pátir aháM dhánAni sáM jayAmi sháshvataH
mÁM havante pitáraM ná jantávo aháM dAshúSe ví bhajAmi bhójanam

It's actually Indra replying back to his worshippers. (Aham = I). Nowhere is Ishwara or any other God mentioned in the verses you've given. Their English translations are wrong.

The verses where you cite Eshwara are essentially dialogues between Indra and priests who chant him and seek his blessings.

To which I again show you the mantra which states that indra, mitra, varuna, agni etc are names of one true god.

Rig Veda 1.164.46: Indraṃ mitraṃ varuṇamaghnimāhuratho divyaḥ sa suparṇo gharutmān,
ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadantyaghniṃ yamaṃ mātariśvānamāhuḥ
"They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutmān.
To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Mātariśvan."

 

[Thirdfront]

You do not decide the rules of debate..If you have any problem with me quoting from other vedas then please by all means leave this debate.

Hindus themselves do not know what devata means and hence the debacle of sanatana dharma in bharatvarsha.

Ishwar is also a ‘Devata’, any entity – living or non-living – that helps us or is useful for us is termed ‘Devata’. But that does not mean every entity is Ishwar and should be worshipped.
The Vedas refer to not 33 crore Devatas but 33 types (Koti in Sanskrit) of Devatas. They are explained in Shatpath Brahman and many other scriptures very clearly.

"Yasya Trayastrinshad Devaa Ange Sarve Samaahitaa, Skamma Tam Bruhi Katamah Swideva Sah”. ~(Atharva Veda 10-7-13)

Which means: with God’s influence, these thirty-three (supporting devta) sustain the world.

There are mantras like below in Rig veda which prove that Ishwar alone is creator of all the devatas

The Supreme One who represents selflessness, controls the entire universe, is present everywhere and is the Devata of all Devatas, alone is source of bliss. Those who do not understand Him remain drenched in sorrow and those who realize Him achieve unconditional happiness. (Rigveda 1.164.39)
Below are the 100 names of ishwara:

100 Names of God | Agniveer Fan

C'mon, now? Do you even know what monotheism is? One can't worship anything else, only one worship-able deity/god/fsm etc. Example, Rigveda mandal 6 hymn 45 asks one to "worship" Indra.... The major attempt to portray Hinduism monotheistic was first made by invading muslims to reconcile the fact that they could not kill/convert all of us and collect jijya.

 

[Nassr]

Exactly what i say. But it wud be unreasonable to completely quarantine your region with subcontinent. For your better understanding, Your region was the junction of two civilizations Indian and Persian and hence always been a mixed cultured region unlike mainland India. But mixed culture doesnt mean you guyz are exclusive.

I do not deny the fact that there would be cultural mixes at various times. These people traded extensively and would have been influenced. However, surprisingly there is no mention of or indication of any Mesopotamian cultural linkages in the IVC people and its landmass, though they traded the most with Mesopotamia. IVC artifacts have been found in abundance in Mesopotamian cities, but no Mesopotamian artifacts in IVC. This is indicative of their own cultural and civilizational strength in maintaining their singular identity. And this has happened since thousands of years.

 

[PlanetWarrior]

When you do not have facts to respond, it would be appropriate to join your 4 year old and read Peter Pan and Batman. You may learn something new.

Your entire fabled delusions became a web of fantasy the moment you agreed with the proposition that man originated from two sources namely Africa and Central Asia. Thereafter reading your jargon became akin to reading the fables of Aladdin and his genie or Ali Baba and his caves of gold

 

[Indischer]

To which I again show you the mantra which states that indra, mitra, varuna, agni etc are names of one true god.

Rig Veda 1.164.46: Indraṃ mitraṃ varuṇamaghnimāhuratho divyaḥ sa suparṇo gharutmān,
ekaṃ sad viprā bahudhā vadantyaghniṃ yamaṃ mātariśvānamāhuḥ
"They call him Indra, Mitra, Varuṇa, Agni, and he is heavenly nobly-winged Garutmān.
To what is One, sages give many a title they call it Agni, Yama, Mātariśvan."

Again, I tell you that it's part of the broader enquiry about the very nature of God that's found within the RigVeda, but not an evidence of Monotheism.

Going by your logic, I should be saying that RigVeda is agnostic just because of Nasadiya Sukta, ignoring all the invocations to various divinities.

Essentially, you are free to worship any divinity of your choice and be assured that your prayers reach God(or nowhere!). That's the spirit of the RigVeda. And yeah, you might want to revisit your definition of Monotheism.

 

[pk_baloch]

i got knowledge and my answers of vedas from @kingkobra

 

[INDIC]

It would be helpful if you could cite some sources about the points you made. I haven't read about the shivalinga in terracotta and evidence of cremation. From what I've read, there are very few similarities between early and middle harappan civilization with Vedic culture. But I'd be happy to read more on this.

Shivalinga from Kalibangan

Yogic postures from Indus valley Civilization.

Proof of Namaskar

These two statues were found with the proof of Sindur(vermilion) on hairline from Naushero, Sindh.

 

[Nassr]

Your entire fabled delusions became a web of fantasy the moment you agreed with the proposition that man originated from two sources namely Africa and Central Asia. Thereafter reading your jargon became akin to reading the fables of Aladdin and his genie or Ali Baba and his caves of gold

I never said that. I believe that the man landed on earth from the heavens and eve emerged from his side. That is why most women stand by their men.

 

[utraash]

Pakistan has pre-islamic history which will be mention in history books always just like many arabs has pagan and pre-islamic history but its not something we are proud off . Pakistani people are not followers of Hinduism and we came out of ignorance; superstitions and cowardice beliefs

Got ur point whatever u r trying to say .... just answer one questions ..... if islam is as a religion so perfect then y u have muslim jihadi brthrs that whole worlds fears about ur side of islamic teachings..... no religion is perfect n its upto you how u perceive teaching of a religion. ...... At last I want to say , since Sanatan dharm/hinduism survived for longest period than any other religion on the earth so it is very obvious that some practices deteriorated....

 

[INDIC]

Absence of cremation does not necessarily suggest absence of vedic culture as vedas support both cremation and burial. Although I have never heard about shivlinga, there are indeed fire altars found in IVC which support the vedic culture theory since yajnya is the way of worship in vedas and not idols.

@Indischer Read this.

Cemetery H Culture Dish or lid

Late Harappan Period dish or lid with perforation at edge for hanging or attaching to large jar. It shows a Blackbuck antelope with trefoil design made of combined circle-and-dot motifs, possibly representing stars. It is associated with burial pottery of the Cemetery H period, dating after 1900 BC.
The Late Harappan Period at Harappa is represented by the Cemetery H culture (190-1300 BC) which is named after the discovery of a large cemetery filled with painted burial urns and some extended inhumations. The earlier burials in this cemetery were laid out much like Harappan coffin burials, but in the later burials, adults were cremated and the bones placed in large urns (164). The change in burial customs represents a major shift in religion and can also be correlated to important changes in economic and political organization. Cemetery H pottery and related ceramics have been found throughout northern Pakistan, even as far north as Swat, where they mix with distinctive local traditions. In the east, numerous sites in the Ganga-Yamuna Doab provide evidence for the gradual expansion of settlements into this heavily forested region. One impetus for this expansion may have been the increasing use of rice and other summer (kharif) crops that could be grown using monsoon stimulated rains. Until late in the Harappan Period (after 2200 BC) the agricultural foundation of the Harappan cities was largely winter (rabi) crops that included wheat and barley. Although the Cemetery H culture encompassed a relatively large area, the trade connections with the western highlands began to break down as did the trade with the coast. Lapis lazuli and turquoise beads are rarely found in the settlements, and marine shell for ornaments and ritual objects gradually disappeared. On the other hand the technology of faience manufacture becomes more refined, possibly in order to compensate for the lack of raw materials such as shell, faience and possibly even carnelian.

 

[INDIC]

This map shows the major cultural interaction regions c. 1900-1300 BC: Cemetery H in the north, Jhukar in the south and Rangpur in Gujarat. During this period there were still urban centers in the Punjab and Sindh, but there was a breakdown in trade from the coast to the northern regions and from the northwestern mountains to the plains.

Late Harappan map

 

[WAR-rior]

Shivalinga from Kalibangan

Yogic postures from Indus valley Civilization.

Proof of Namaskar

These two statues were found with the proof of Sindur(vermilion) on hairline from Naushero, Sindh.

Friend. This is interesting to see and i aint shocked to see this as this is what proofs have always specified. But again, I will ask you to post the relevance of the links where you brought this information. will be helpful to debate on the topic put forward by @Nassr in a structured manner. Regards.